Can a Christian be a Freemason???

[Rev Wayne]

If a Christian cannot be a Freemason, then why were there great Freemasons that were Christian?

I think the question needs to be rephrased when it comes to Mr. O.F.F.:

If a Christian cannot be a freemason, then why were there great Christians that were Freemasons?

 

[Rev Wayne]

It's pretty sad when a 'Christian pastor' would sound as though he is giving more glory to a fraternity, for his Christian influence, rather than to God.

Perhaps you are merely jesting, or perhaps you really believe the spin jobs you create ex nihilo from my posts. At any rate, I think the readers deserve a straightforward estimation of what I said, rather than the pall of negativity you cast over anything Masonic. When I spoke of these men, I made it clear that the primary thing I had to say about them was that they were exemplary CHRISTIANS. So here again, exactly what you just posted, with appropriate indications that show that if there is anywhere I was “giving glory,” it was to these men and their CHRISTIAN influence:

I have been privileged to know some wonderful Christians in my time, whose [CHRISTIAN] influence on me in my early years was enormous. I never knew, until several of them died within a short time frame, and after noticing obituary notations that the first couple of them had been Masons, I got in the habit of looking for it when others later died also, and to a man, it turned out they were all Masons. Kinda stops you in your tracks when you've been against Masonry and suddenly are put in the position of, "if Masonry is evil, then what am I, after all my Christian influences turned out to be Masons?" The adjustments in my thinking were thus hemmed in, and God gave me only one direction in which to find my way out of the dilemma, I had to change my estimation of Masonry. After all, I could not deny what sort of [CHRISTIAN] men these were, the fact that they were Masons could not change that; nor could I deny the [CHRISTIAN] influence they had on me, which in essence was to deny my own Christian faith. God works in mysterious ways to get His points across.

But this is typical. When Michael has no argument, he creates one of his own by twisting the words of others into his own straw man creation, which apparently he has less trouble dealing with. Problem is, he also has less credibility as a result.

So while it may be difficult not to, my plea is that Masons not take our stand against the lodge personally. Again, it's not you, it's what you've been taught that's the problem.

That and three bucks will get you a nice Starbucks cuppa coffee, but I’m not buying it anytime soon--especially since you make that statement within the same post where you once again set off things like 'Christian pastor' in a deliberate insinuendo. If it’s “not me,” then why the sarcasm, the slurs, the defamation, the insults, and all the other derogatory nonsense that fills your posts at every place where you have ever had any response to me? But hey, when I say that, don’t worry, “it’s not you, it’s what I have been taught that’s the problem”—namely, I've been taught that I can’t really expect much better when engaging in any discourse with you. And YOU are the one who taught me that.

 

[everready]

Free Masons worship a god Maverick just not the God of the bible

 

[Rev Wayne]

I worship the Lord Jesus Christ and always have, and no other. So do many Masons I know. I also happen to be a Freemason. Therefore your claim is in error.

 

[StevenL]

Freemasonry = Strong Delusion

Easily detectible just from reading the watered-down notes in a masonic bible. Of course one who is deluded by this wine will not recognize it.

 

[RMDY]

Freemason locations always seem to be locked and darkened. Kind of creepy.

 

[Rev Wayne]

Easily detectible just from reading the watered-down notes in a masonic bible.

Really? I hadn’t noticed. I have one, it was presented in 2004. Here are some terms from the glossary in the back, maybe you could point out for us which of these you consider “watered-down?”

FATHER—The title by which God is distinguished as being the Father of the Lord Jeus Christ and of all his true disciples.

FLOOD—Occurred approximately 2500 B.C. and was a judgment upon the world for the wickedness of mankind. The wickedness of this age was compared by Jesus to conditions at the time of his Second Coming.

GOD—The Scriptures are full of the truth that there is only one True God. In the OT, God revealed himself to the Hebrews in various ways. In the NT, God revealed himself in Jesus Christ, His only begotten Son. Ex. 3:2-6; Deut. 6:4; Acts 17:27-29; I Cor. 8:4-6.

GOSPEL—The glad tidings of salvation through Jesus Christ.

GREAT WHITE THRONE:

This term refers to the pure and glorious throne of God. Before it, every knee must bow and every tongue confess that Christ is God to the glory of the Father.

INTERCESSION—Prayer in behalf of others. Christ is our intercessor or Advocate. The Holy Spirit also makes intercession.

JESUS CHRIST-- The name Jesus means Saviour, derived from the ancient Hebrew, Jehoshua, found only in the NT and should be applied exclusively to Christ. The title CHRIST means anointed, consecrated, sacred, and is used only for the Messiah, who came in fulfillment of prophecy. The whole of OT history took on a new and deeper meaning with His coming. He was born in Bethlehem into an ordinary Jewish family from Nazareth. The person, life, and the work of Jesus are the subject of the whole NT (and in prophecy of the OT), and as a whole, are the historical and doctrinal foundation of Christianity. Matt. 1:1, 21; 16; 13:20; 26:71; John 1:17, 20:31; Acts 2:36.

JUSTIFICATION—An act of free grace by which God pardons the sinner and accepts him as righteous because of the atonement of Christ. Faith is the only means of justification. Rom. 3:23; 4:25.

KINGDOM OF GOD, KINGDOM OF HEAVEN—These terms denote the blessedness of the followers of Christ, partially attained in this life and perfectly in the world to come.

LAMB—A title given to the Lord Jesus Christ as the atoning sacrifice for the sins of his people. Its innocence and gentleness made the lamb an example of such qualities in the Saviour. In John 21:15 “lambs” means disciples of Christ. (Rev. 5:6, 8, 12, 13).

LION OF THE TRIBE OF JUDAH:

In the tribal benediction pronounced upon Judah, the "lion's whelp" is used emblematically of strength; hence, the ensign on the banner of Judah was a lion. The phrase in the Masonic ritual, "The lion of the tribe of Juda," is Messianic and refers to Christ, the anointed of God and royal head of God's kingdom.

LORD’S SUPPER—This was instituted by Christ on the night preceding his crucifixion. It is a memorial of Christ’s atoning death and a visible token of Christian fellowship. (Matt. 26:19-30; I Cor.11:23-26).

LOVE—The perfect exercise of love includes our whole duty to God and our fellowman. The love of God to man is manifested in Jesus Christ.

MEDIATOR—One that interposes between persons who are at variance for the purpose of reconciling them. It is a title for Christ, who is the only mediator between God and man. (I Tim. 2:5, Heb. 12:24).

PEACE ON EARTH:

The principles and tenets of Freemasonry and the teachings of the symbols and legends of the Fraternity are conducive to "peace on earth and good will to men." Due recognition is given to the truth that only as the Prince of Peace reigns in the hearts and lives of men can the world ever have real peace. (The significance here is, only Jesus is referred to in Scripture as the Prince of Peace.)

RAISED:

"Raised to the Sublime Degree of Master Mason" refers to the final symbolic ritual of the Third Degree celebrating our faith in the final resurrection of our bodies, to the divinely revealed truth that these vile bodies shall be fashioned into the likeness of the risen and perfected and glorified body of the Lord Jesus Christ.

SACRIFICE—In the OT was the killing, burning and sometimes killing of an animal at the altar. Part of it was offered to God, part eaten by the priest and part by the worshiper. A sacrifice was presented to God as a gift, as an act of thanksgiving, devotion, repentance or payment of vows made to God. The perfect sacrifice was made through the perfect Saviour, Jesus Christ, offered once only and for all. (Ex. 3:18, 40:29, Heb. 13:15, 21

SALVATION—Deliverance from temporal evils or earthly destruction. God is figuratively called “salvation” in Ps. 27:1. In the NT, it denotes the deliverance from sin and death through faith in Christ. (Ex. 14:13; Matt. 1:21).

STONE THAT THE BUILDER REJECTED:

In the erection of Solomon's Temple, one stone that was neither oblong nor square was brought to the builders. The workmen were bewildered by this stone which appeared to be irregular and of no use, and therefore rejected it, casting it into the rubbish. Later, it was discovered that this was the keystone, or copestone, and that it was absolutely necessary for the building. It was sought out and placed in its proper position as the head of the corner. Masons are to be careful that the stone rejected by the Jewish builders of the kingdom of God be not rejected by them.

ST. JOHN THE EVANGELIST:

As a disciple of John the Baptist, John, a son of Zebedee and brother of James, was among the earliest to follow Jesus and to enter into full Christian discipleship. He was numbered among the apostles and was designated as the "disciple whom Jesus loved." He was the author of five of our New Testament books: the Gospel bearing his name; three Epistles; and the Revelation of Jesus Christ. In Masonic history and in rituals, St. John the Evangelist is highly honored and his memory beautifully commemorated.

VEIL OF THE TEMPLE:

This was the curtain or partition which separated the Holy Place from the Most Holy Place. It served as a constant reminder to the Hebrew worshipper that only the high priest, and he only once each year after having made proper atonement for his own sins and for sins of the people, was allowed to enter the Holy of Holies. As a result of the atonement of Christ in his death on the cross, this veil was rent and destroyed, and through him as high priest an open door into the heavenly sanctuary has been prepared for all true worshippers.

 

[Rev Wayne]

Freemason locations always seem to be locked and darkened. Kind of creepy.

Yeah, kinda like churches when they aren't holding services, huh? Most lodges meet once a month, with an occasional special called meeting. Most churches meet once a week, many also have midweek services, and different groups regularly using the building as well. It would be quite a normal expectation for the building to be darkened most of the times you would ever see it, because most of the time it would not be in use.

 

[JerryL]

Its actually a requirement to believe in God to become a Freemason. Numerous Anglican Bishops have been Freemasons.

Actually, not God, but a belief in a "supreme being". That supreme being could be a coke bottle if you so choose. You can't an atheist, but you could be a satanist, if that's "your supreme being."

 

[JerryL]

Part 1, part 2 to follow because of post length.

Is Masonry a Religion?
It’s monitors and notable writers say so.
"This is because Masonry is a religious institution..." (Kentucky Monitor, p. 28)
"Every Masonic Lodge is a temple of religion; and its teachings are instruction in religion." (Morals and Dogma, p. 213).
"It is the province of Masonry to teach all truth--not moral truth alone, but political and philosophical, and even religious truth..." (Morals and Dogma, p. 148. Emphasis mine)
The Kentucky Monitor says of Albert Pike: "The editor has not found sufficient grounds to differ from Brother Albert Pike, than whom there was never a more profound student of the arcane of our Order, nor from Brother Joseph Fort Newton, than whom there is no greater Masonic scholar today..." (page xi of the introduction).
"The tendency of all true Masonry is towards religion. If it make any progress, its progress is to that holy end. Look at its ancient landmarks, its sublime ceremonies, its profound symbols and allegories - all inculcating religious doctrines, commanding religious observance, and teaching religious truth, and who can deny that it is eminently a religious institution?" (Ency. of Freemasonry, pg. 728.)
"Every Masonic Lodge is a temple of religion and its teachings are instruction in religion…Here we meet as brethren, to learn to know and love each other….This is the true religion revealed to the ancient patriarchs; which Masonry has taught for many centuries, and which it will continue to teach as long as time endures." (Morals and Dogmas, pg. 325.)
"Masonry, then, is indeed, a religious institution; and on this ground mainly, if not alone, should the religious Mason defend it." (Ency. of Freemasonry, pg. 729)

Does Masonry have a plan of salvation?

You decide.
It was the single object of all the ancient rites and mysteries practiced in the very bosom of pagan darkness. . .to teach the immortality of the Soul. This is still the great design of the third degree of Masonry. This is the scope and aim of its ritual. The Master Mason represents man, when youth, manhood, old age, and life itself have passed away as fleeting shadows, yet raised from the grave of iniquity, and quickened into another and better existence. By its legend and all its ritual, it is implied that we have been redeemed from the death of sin and the sepulchre of pollution. . . .and the conclusion we arrive at is, that youth, properly directed, leads [us to the honorable and virtuous maturity, and that] the life of man, regulated by morality, faith, and justice, will be rewarded at its closing hour by the prospect of eternal bliss. . . The important design of the degree is to symbolize the great doctrines of the resurrection of the body and the immortality of the soul; and hence it has been remarked by a learned writer of our order, that the Master Mason represents a man saved from the grave of iniquity, and raised to the faith of salvation. Book of Constitutions, Grand Lodge South Carolina, 1965, pages 141-2)
"You were presented a Lambskin or white leather apron. The lamb has in all ages been deemed an emblem of innocence. By the lambskin, therefore, the Mason is reminded of that purity of life and conduct which is essential to his gaining admission to the Celestial Lodge above, where the Supreme Architect of the Universe presides."
('Kentucky Monitor', p. 32)

Part 2 , next post.

 

[JerryL]

Part 2

Should a Christian be a Mason?
This excerpt out of the Kentucky Monitor will show you if masonry has a savior other than Jesus. (Note: The Christian and Masonic saviors are capitalized to show emphasis, but other than that, that is exactly how it is worded. Jerry)

All believed in a future life, to be attained by purification and trials; in a state or successive states of reward and punishment; and in a Mediator or Redeemer, by whom the Evil Principle was to be overcome and the Supreme Deity reconciled to His creatures. The belief was general that He was to be born of a virgin and suffer a painful death. The Hindus called him Krishna; the Chinese, Kioun-tse; the Persians, Sosiosch; the Chaldeans, Dhouvanai; the Egyptians, Horus; Plato, Love; the Scandinavians, Balder; the CHRISTIANS,JESUS; MASONS,HIRAM. It is interesting that the "small hill west of Mount Moriah" has been identified as Golgotha, or Mount Calvary.
(Kentucky Monitor, pp. XIV-XV, 5th-15th editions.)

"It is the province of Masonry to teach all truth--not moral truth alone, but political and philosophical, and even religious truth..." (Morals and Dogma, p. 148. Emphasis mine)

"He knocks at the door of the Lodge of his own free will and accord...and comes as a earnest seeker for Light and Truth. (Kentucky Monitor, p. 23. Emphasis mine)

What about this Light and Truth?

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way,the truth,and the life: no man cometh unto the Father,but by me.
John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

If you are a Christian how can you be in darkness, helpless, and ignorant? Yet in Kentucky ritual they say you are.

"There you stood without our portals, on the threshold of this new Masonic life, in darkness, helplessness, and ignorance. Having been wandering amid the errors and covered over with the pollutions of the outer and profane world, you came inquiringly to our doors, seeking the new birth, and asking a withdrawal of the veil which concealed the divine truth from your uninitiated sight. And here, as with Moses at the burning bush, the solemn admonition is given, 'Put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.' Ceremonial preparations surrounded you, all of a significant character, to indicate to you that some great change was about to take place in your moral and intellectual condition. There was to be not simply a change for the future, but also an extinction of the past; for initiation is, as it were, a death to the world and a resurrection to a life." (Kentucky Monitor, pp. 26-27)

If you have Jesus you are not wandering in darkness, helpless or ignorant. You certainly aren't seeking a new birth and the divine truth isn't hidden from you. Masonry can’t make an extinction of your past or bring you to a new life, only Jesus can do that.

In Christ,
JerryL (Ex-Mason)

 

[Rev Wayne]

This excerpt out of the Kentucky Monitor will show you if masonry has a savior other than Jesus. (Note: The Christian and Masonic saviors are capitalized to show emphasis, but other than that, that is exactly how it is worded. Jerry)

All believed in a future life, to be attained by purification and trials; in a state or successive states of reward and punishment; and in a Mediator or Redeemer, by whom the Evil Principle was to be overcome and the Supreme Deity reconciled to His creatures. The belief was general that He was to be born of a virgin and suffer a painful death. The Hindus called him Krishna; the Chinese, Kioun-tse; the Persians, Sosiosch; the Chaldeans, Dhouvanai; the Egyptians, Horus; Plato, Love; the Scandinavians, Balder; the CHRISTIANS,JESUS; MASONS,HIRAM. It is interesting that the "small hill west of Mount Moriah" has been identified as Golgotha, or Mount Calvary.
(Kentucky Monitor, pp. XIV-XV, 5th-15th editions.)

Gee, I thought we had gotten beyond this long ago on this thread, not to mention everywhere else. Someone somewhere started this around as Kentucky Monitor material, which in my book, unless I find incontrovertible support for the claim from a Mason in the KY Grand Lodge jurisdiction, I will remain highly skeptical, and with good reason.

This material has traditionally been attributed to Henry Pirtle. That attribution is a false one, and for that reason I consider the KY Monitor attribution to be false as well, until someone can show me proof to the contrary. The above quote, as it stands, is quoted and cut & pasted in so many anti-masonic websites it's pathetic, because the things that are claimed about it are absurd.

The quote actually comes from Albert Pike's Morals and Dogma, and even there it does not appear as it is cited above. The full paragraph in which it appears is as follows:

All antiquity solved the enigma of the existence of Evil, by supposing the existence of a Principle of Evil, of Demons, fallen Angels, an Ahriman, a Typhon, a Siva, a Lok, or a Satan, that, first falling themselves, and plunged in misery and darkness, tempted man to his fall, and brought sin into the world. All believed in a future life, to be attained by purification and trials; in a state or successive states of reward and punishment; and in a Mediator or Redeemer, by whom the Evil Principle was to be overcome, and the Supreme Deity reconciled to His creatures. The belief was general, that He was to be born of a Virgin, and suffer a painful death. The Indians called him Chrishna; the Chinese, Kioun-tse; the Persians, Sosiosch; the Chaldeans, Dhouvanai; the Egyptians, Har-Oeri; Plato, Love; and the Scandinavians, Balder. (Highlight mine) (Albert Pike, Morals and Dogma, Chapter 18, p. 277)

You will notice that IN CONTEXT, the remark is being made about "all antiquity." You will ALSO notice that even though in all other respects, the underlined portion matches the alleged KY quote word-for-word, it differs in the fact that it does not have the one part that you chose to capitalize, "CHRISTIANS,JESUS; MASONS,HIRAM." Moreover, you will also notice, if you read the original, that Pike was discussing pre-Christian ideas, and the "All antiquity" is the surest evidence of it. For him to have included the above phrase that alleges this to have come from a Masonic Monitor, would have been totally contrary to the thought he was elucidating in that context.
My contention is that this is either falsified material created for the purpose of making accusations (the most likely case), or if it actually does appear in the KY Monitor, as is generally attributed, that it represents the opinions of Henry Pirtle alone, and that Pirtle has added the quote his own commentary, and one which is antithetical to the point Pike was making.

Since I have never seen it in ANY Masonic Monitor, and I own quite a few, I take it to be spurious, and a false creation of accusatory material, just as most accusations based on anything by Albert Pike have tended to be, ever since John Ankerberg established the pattern with his butchered quotes and false accusations 20 years ago with the release of The Secret Teachings of the Masonic Lodge.

But don't take my word for it. All the Pike nonsense, along with further exposure of Ankerberg's falsely created nonsense, and that of other antimasons, can be found here:

Is it True What They Say About Freemasonry?

Having said all this to refute the claim that was made, it would be remiss of me to omit adding here also, a further clarification of exactly what Pike WAS saying with this material. For one thing, this chapter of M&D is all of one piece, dealing with the Knight Rose Croix, the 18th degree of Scottish Rite Masonry. It is extremely ironic that critics would choose this particular degree to single out, and this particular chapter of M&D as well, to offer criticisms trying to show incompatibility between Christianity and Fremasonry. Why? Because the 18th degree of Scottish Rite, in every place you look in Masonry, is described as a witness to the redemptive sacrifice of Christ. One of the emblems of the degree is a a cross with a rose superimposed upon it. The Rose symbolizes Christ (a common Christian symbolism) and the Cross symbolizes His sacrificial death for mankind. Had whoever butchered this quotation decided to read the entire chapter, which runs from p. 277-311, they might have discovered the conclusion to which Pike takes this discussion of the Redeemer motif as found in "all antiquity," because he actually points it in the right direction, and makes some of his most direct statements about Christ that you will find anywhere in anything he wrote. He states in unequivocal fashion:

The agonies of the garden of Gethsemane and those of the Cross on Calvary preceded the Resurrection and were the means of Redemption. (p. 307)

To this he adds quite a bit more, but to be concise, I cite a portion which captures the gist of his comments:

Man is once more taught to look upward to his God. No longer to a God hid in impenetrable mystery, and infinitely remote from human sympathy, emerging only at intervals from the darkness to smite and crush humanity: but a God, good, kind, beneficent, and merciful: a rather, loving the creatures He has made, with a love immeasurable and exhaustless; Who feels for us, and sympathizes with us, and sends us pain and want and disaster only that they may serve to develop in us the virtues and excellences that befit us to live with Him hereafter.

Jesus of Nazareth, the "Son of man," is the expounder of the new Law of Love. He calls to Him the humble, the poor, the Pariahs of the world. The first sentence that He pronounces blesses the world, and announces the new gospel: "Blessed are they that mourn for they shall be comforted." He pours the oil of consolation and peace upon every crushed and bleeding heart. Every sufferer is His proselyte. He shares their sorrows, and sympathizes with all their afflictions.

He raises up the sinner and the Samaritan woman, and teaches them to hope for forgiveness. He pardons the woman taken in adultery. He selects his disciples not among the Pharisees or the Philosophers, but among the low and humble, even of the fishermen of Galilee. He heals the sick and feeds the poor. He lives among the destitute and the friendless. "Suffer little children," He said, "to come unto me; for of such is the kingdom of Heaven! Blessed are the humble-minded, for theirs is the kingdom of Heaven; the meek, for they shall inherit the Earth; the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy; the pure in heart, for they shall see God; the peace-maker, for they shall be called the children of God! First be reconciled to they brother, and then come and offer thy gift at the altar. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not away! Love your enemies; bless them that curse you; do good to them that hate you; and pray for them which despitefully use you and persecute you! All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye also unto them; for this is the law and the Prophets! He that taketh not his cross, and followeth after Me, is not worthy of Me. A new commandment I give unto you, that ye love one another: as I have loved you, that ye also love one another: by this shall all know that ye are My disciples. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friend."
The Gospel of Love He sealed with His life. The cruelty of the Jewish Priesthood, the ignorant ferocity of the mob, and the Roman indifference to barbarian blood, nailed Him to the cross, and He expired uttering blessings upon humanity.

Dying thus, He bequeathed His teachings to man as an inestimable inheritance. Perverted and corrupted, they have served as a basis for many creeds, and been even made the warrant for in-tolerance and persecution. We here teach them in their purity. They are our Masonry; for to them good men of all creeds can subscribe.

That God is good and merciful, and loves and sympathizes with the creatures He has made; that His finger is visible in all the movements of the moral, intellectual, and material universe; that we are His children, the objects of His paternal care and regard; that all men are our brothers, whose wants we are to supply, their errors to pardon, their opinions to tolerate, their injuries to forgive; that man has an immortal soul, a free will, a right to freedom of thought and action; that all men are equal in God's sight; that we best serve God by humility, meekness, gentleness, kindness, and the other virtues which the lowly can practise as well as the lofty; this is "the new Law," the "WORD," for which the world had waited and pined so long; and every true Knight of the Rose ✠ will revere the memory of Him who taught it, and look indulgently even on those who assign to Him a character far above his own conceptions or belief, even to the extent of deeming Him Divine. (M&D, p. 309-10)

As for the other comments, I could say a great deal, and will, as time and opportunity allow, if someone does not beat me to it, as I'm sure anyone who knows the truth would be itching to do with so much misunderstanding represented in such a short couple of posts.

 

[StevenL]

Experts in obfuscation and deflection.

 

[Rev Wayne]

Experts in obfuscation and deflection.

Yes, they certainly are. That's why we are here to expose the accusers by showing everyone the total imaginary facade that has been created ex nihilo by their ilk.

Some further comments, dealing with the first question posed by JerryL, "Is Freemasonry a Religion?"

Is Masonry a Religion?
It’s monitors and notable writers say so.

And every Masonic Grand Lodge with a website and a Monitor will tell you in either one, emphatically, NO! Masonry is acknowledged to be religious, though not a religion, because when people speak of “a religion,” they generally refer to a systematized, and self-proclaimed body with specifically adhered-to doctrines, and with adherents of whom it will generally be understood that they adhere to those beliefs. Masonry, on the other hand, is primarily symbolic in its teachings, and due to that symbolism, Masonry will be the first to tell you that it is open to interpretation according to the individual. And since you have cited Pike’s discussion of the 18th chapter of Morals and Dogma, it would be appropriate to let him speak to this claim:

No one Mason has the right to measure for another, within the walls of a Masonic Temple, the degree of veneration which he shall feel for any Reformer, or the Founder of any Religion. We teach a belief in no particular creed, as we teach unbelief in none. (p. 308)

The sad part of the claim is the list of butchered, sliced and diced, and truncated “quotes” on which you build this house of cards. It generally takes more trouble than it’s worth to show what’s wrong with this, but in case there is someone here who will be fooled by this little sleight of hand, I suppose it’s do-able.

"This is because Masonry is a religious institution..." (Kentucky Monitor, p. 28)

It’s easy to see that this is lifted totally out of context. “This” is because? What is “this?” We don’t really even have a complete thought here at all, because “this” is not identified, nor is the sentence even concluded, but instead is cut off at the end. Do you actually HAVE a Ky. Monitor, or are you simply repeating the accusations of others? I ask this because I notice a lot of your questions and your list of quotes, are word-for-word, even with the exact same cutoff points, identical to the ones found in a website article, "Can a Christian be a Mason?" by David J. Riggs.

Even if we take the statement at face value, it does not substantiate the claim that “Masonry is a religion,” because that brilliant deduction is derived from an acknowledgment that it is a “religious institution.” Since when is “religious institution” the equivalent of “a religion?” The church where I serve as pastor is a “religious institution,” but nobody who is a member would make the absurd statement that “our church is a religion.” Likewise, the Bible College I attended is a “religious institution,” but they certainly are not “a religion.” No way does this snippet quote support any such claim.

"Every Masonic Lodge is a temple of religion; and its teachings are instruction in religion."

This is clipped from a context that actually goes on for several pages. Pike points out that “there is a religion of toil,” a “religion” of fellowship, “a religion of society,” a “religion” of books, that “everything which man is put to do, if rightly and faithfully done,” may be said to be “religion.” But when Pike says this, he is simply extemporizing upon the general Masonic concept in which “religion” as Masonically referred to, is more commonly expressed in our thinking as Christians, as “religious practices.” The full paragraph of which the above quote is the lead sentence, provides even further clarity:

Every Masonic Lodge is a temple of religion; and its teachings are instruction in religion. For here are inculcated disinterestedness, affection, toleration, devotedness, patriotism, truth, a generous sympathy with those who suffer and mourn, pity for the fallen, mercy for the erring, relief for those in want, Faith, Hope, and .Charity. Here we meet as brethren, to learn to know and love each other. Here we greet each other gladly, are lenient to each other's faults, regardful of each other's feelings, ready to relieve each other's wants. This is the true religion revealed to the ancient patriarchs; which Masonry has taught for many centuries, and which it will continue to teach as long as time endures. If unworthy passions, or selfish, bitter, or revengeful feelings, contempt, dislike, hatred, enter here, they are intruders and not welcome, strangers uninvited, and not guests.

Notice the “for,” which signals a continuation from that first sentence, making what follows the exposition of the statement. It may be considered to be “religion,” because the following religious practices are “inculcated.” He designates it the “true religion revealed to the ancient patriarchs,” and says Masonry has taught it for centuries, and will teach it as long as time endures. And surely no one with all their mental faculties would suggest that any of the things he lists here are in any way contrary to or incompatible with anything in Christian teaching.

"It is the province of Masonry to teach all truth--not moral truth alone, but political and philosophical, and even religious truth..." (Morals and Dogma, p. 148. Emphasis mine)

You got the wrong words highlighted, so I took the liberty of correcting it with the proper highlighting, which makes this claim its own refutation. Pike made no claim that “Masonry claims to teach ALL truth,” which is the general accusation, but simply states that Masonry teaches all KINDS of truth, and not just moral truth as is the more general affirmation of Masonry. No need really to cite any further to refute this claim.

The Kentucky Monitor says of Albert Pike: "The editor has not found sufficient grounds to differ from Brother Albert Pike, than whom there was never a more profound student of the arcane of our Order, nor from Brother Joseph Fort Newton, than whom there is no greater Masonic scholar today..." (page xi of the introduction).

That is the editor’s opinion, and that is all it is stated or claimed to be, which is self-evident. Even if he meant it as a statement beyond his own opinion, the Ky. Monitor has authority only in Ky. anyway.

"The tendency of all true Masonry is towards religion. If it make any progress, its progress is to that holy end. Look at its ancient landmarks, its sublime ceremonies, its profound symbols and allegories - all inculcating religious doctrines, commanding religious observance, and teaching religious truth, and who can deny that it is eminently a religious institution?" (Ency. of Freemasonry, pg. 728.)
"Masonry, then, is indeed, a religious institution; and on this ground mainly, if not alone, should the religious Mason defend it." (Ency. of Freemasonry, pg. 729)

This is from Albert Mackey, although I see no attribution saying so, and is taken from a context in which Mackey discusses at detail four separate definitions of Masonry, three of which he acknowledges Masonry as a religious institution may be said to fit the definition. But the fourth sense, of Masonry as “a religion,” that is, as a group which may be taken to exist as one of several major world groups which define themselves as a religion—Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, etc.—Mackey emphatically declares that no, Masonry is NOT to be taken in that sense as “a religion.” And when you come right down to it, that sense is the whole main problem with the notion that Masonry is “a religion,” because it is not, it does not understand nor proclaim itself to be, and in fact everywhere emphatically declares it is not.

By the way, StevenL, I notice there was no response to the supposed "watered down" content in the Masonic Bible. A Masonic Bible is no different than any other King James Bible in its biblical content. What I provided was from a glossary of Christian terms found in the back, none of which appears to be "watered down." I can't help but notice also you provided no specific "watered down" content to explain what was meant by your claim.

 

[JerryL]

Gee, I thought we had gotten beyond this long ago on this thread, not to mention everywhere else. Someone somewhere started this around as Kentucky Monitor material, which in my book, unless I find incontrovertible support for the claim from a Mason in the KY Grand Lodge jurisdiction, I will remain highly skeptical, and with good reason.

This is directly out of the edition my friend has(15th, I think). I have the other Kentucky monitors I where my quotes say it came from the Monitor. A friend of mine has the edition that says this:

"All believed in a future life, to be attained by purification and trials; in a state or successive states of reward and punishment; and in a Mediator or Redeemer, by whom the Evil Principle was to be overcome and the Supreme Deity reconciled to His creatures. The belief was general that He was to be born of a virgin and suffer a painful death. The Hindus called him Krishna; the Chinese, Kioun-tse; the Persians, Sosiosch; the Chaldeans, Dhouvanai; the Egyptians, Horus; Plato, Love; the Scandinavians, Balder; the CHRISTIANS,JESUS; MASONS,HIRAM. It is interesting that the "small hill west of Mount Moriah" has been identified as Golgotha, or Mount Calvary.
(Kentucky Monitor, pp. XIV-XV, 5th-15th editions.)

This material has traditionally been attributed to Henry Pirtle. That attribution is a false one, and for that reason I consider the KY Monitor attribution to be false as well, until someone can show me proof to the contrary.

As I said above, I have my old copies of the monitor(Kentucky) and have saw the one that my friend has that I quoted the above paragraph from. Henry wrote the copies I have, I'm not sure if he was the one who wrote the copy my friend has that the "Christians/Jesus, Masons/Hiram" quote came from. I can assure you it came from a Kentucky monitor though.

I was a mason and have read all the stuff I posted. I didn't say one couldn't be a mason and a Christian. I looked at quotes from my monitors and other materials. I dropped out after feeling condemnation everytime I walked through the doors of lodge. That's just me. I don't care if anybody becomes a mason or not, my dad is one and I have friends that are. I just show quotes that are at odds with Christianity, I didn't say a Christian couldn't be one, I just use direct quotes out of material to show where it might not settle good with people that are considering it. You can tell the language of a mason when you step on his toes. Like I said, I was a mason and from the feelings I got when I went through the meetings, I just couldn't remain there.

I haven't been to the website in several years Rev. Wayne, but there was a "Rev. Wayne" defending masonry at EMFJ. Is this you? I said it way back then, if you are the same Rev. Wayne, "how do you have time to prepare a sermon if you spend all this time defending masonry?"

 

[JerryL]

No. The answer required is not supreme being - it is, God. (UGLQ ritual)

Do Christians and satanist believe in the same god? I have met a "satanist" at a lodge function. I don't think we worship the same god. He, like everyone else, answered that he believed in god. A hindu will have to say he believes in god. Does he believe in the same god as Christians.

Edit: I hadn't read the whole thread when I posted, and yes, what I posted has been hashed out. I can assure you that I have Kentucky monitors in hand that my quotes came from, with the exception of the earlier edition of the monitor I quoted from, and I have saw that one personally. I will bow out of this thread and not continue to step on toes of brothers in Christ. I just couldn't remain a mason, it was a personal choice. I can only speak for me.

Next edit: Man, everytime that big "masonic steps" picture is posted, it makes it really hard to read this thread.

 

[Ave Maria]

Yes, of course a Christian can be a Freemason. There is nothing contradictory between being a Freemason and a Christian despite what the fundies might tell you.

 

[JerryL]

My opinion is that a Christian cannot be a Freemason. Freemasonry is far too anti-Christian if you ask me.

This is from your earlier post, have you changed you position?

 

[Rev Wayne]

This is directly out of the edition my friend has (15th, I think). I have the other Kentucky monitors I where my quotes say it came from the Monitor. A friend of mine has the edition that says this:

"All believed in a future life, to be attained by purification and trials; in a state or successive states of reward and punishment; and in a Mediator or Redeemer, by whom the Evil Principle was to be overcome and the Supreme Deity reconciled to His creatures. The belief was general that He was to be born of a virgin and suffer a painful death. The Hindus called him Krishna; the Chinese, Kioun-tse; the Persians, Sosiosch; the Chaldeans, Dhouvanai; the Egyptians, Horus; Plato, Love; the Scandinavians, Balder; the CHRISTIANS,JESUS; MASONS,HIRAM. It is interesting that the "small hill west of Mount Moriah" has been identified as Golgotha, or Mount Calvary.
(Kentucky Monitor, pp. XIV-XV, 5th-15th editions.)

Then I take you at your word, since it is what I have to go on at the moment, in which case, the other part of what I said applies, it is a bastardized Pike quotation. Whether some accuser is guilty of the distortion, or Pirtle is the guilty one, that fact remains. (1) The quote itself, as anyone can see from the original I cited from Pike, is a word-for-word reproduction. You don’t get there by coincidence, and I find it hard to believe that Pirtle cited this without attribution. (2) The part about “CHRISTIANS,JESUS; MASONS,HIRAM,” as I already stated, is not in the Pike original, and is someone else’s insertion. (3) If it is Pirtle’s insertion, then Pirtle was making some point different than Pike, who is CLEARLY seen in the CONTEXT describing things in “all antiquity,” and speaking of things as found in religious texts antedating the Christian Bible. (4) The reference in question, therefore, is not representative of the original by Pike. (5) IF this was done without attributing Pike’s material to him properly, it is a misappropriation of the work of others—in a word, plagiarism. Do it these days, and depending on the circumstances, serious legal consequences can result. (6) Material also was provided from the same chapter in M&D, descriptive of the 18th degree Scottish Rite, showing that Pike concludes the material with a full-blown Christological statement that is fully orthodox in its affirmation, even to the point of stating Jesus is divine—probably the only place you’ll ever find such an acknowledgment from Pike.

The main question I would pose to you concerning this ridiculously bally-hooed text, is, with your specific reference to this as being found in the “5th-15th editions,” and with your claim a friend has, can you please share with us exactly what time reference is represented by the 5th-15 editions? From what I understand, even the 15th has been quite some time ago, and the material has long since been removed, along with other Pirtle material found in the Ky. Monitor, and thus no longer appears ANYWHERE in Masonry.

That makes it hard to swallow this as any kind of representative quotation in Masonry at all. If no lodge currently has this material anywhere in its constitution, by-laws, or instructional material, and since it never was truly representative of the Masonic position on the matter anywhere (having had to be altered for accusers to be able to use it in the first place), how exactly is this any indictment of anything “Freemasonry teaches,” or how does it apply to anything pertaining to the question of this thread?

When Pike wrote the material, he was writing of religions in antiquity, and discussing the redeemer motif as it has been found in many other religions before the fulfillmen of the type in the reality of Christ. Nothing he said about it is accusable; all the religions he described have had a belief in one who was to come as a redeemer, one with many identifiable parallels to the concept of Messiah in Jewish Scriptures. Since Pike CLEARLY identifies them as simply the type and not the reality, and since he also CLEARLY points to Christ as the fulfillment of the type, where is there anything accusable in what was said anyway? That is, of course, unless you buy the quote as Pirtle’s own original material, or the quote as an accurate reflection of what Pike said, neither of which is true?

The only other question I have regards your account of the Ky. Monitors and this quote. Your citation has it:

"(Kentucky Monitor, pp. XIV-XV, 5th-15th editions.)"

Yet you also state:

"A friend of mine has the edition that says this"

The first seems to imply that the quote you provided was found in all 16 of these editions of the KY Monitor. The second seems to imply that it appears only in the 15th.

Just curious, but perhaps you could clarify.

 

[JerryL]

The only other question I have regards your account of the Ky. Monitors and this quote. Your citation has it:

"(Kentucky Monitor, pp. XIV-XV, 5th-15th editions.)"

Yet you also state:

"A friend of mine has the edition that says this"

The first seems to imply that the quote you provided was found in all 16 of these editions of the KY Monitor. The second seems to imply that it appears only in the 15th.

Just curious, but perhaps you could clarify.

That quote is in fact from a website that says it is in all those editions. Rather than sit down and write what I saw in that particular one I copied what they posted. The copy I read is exactly like they quoted. This is a quote from an older monitor and is not found in my copies. All I can say with a surety is that it was in the copy I read and was exactly like I worded it here.