Can a Christian be a Freemason???

[Jester4kicks]

I only have one question: What is lacking in Christianity that would compel someone to be a Freemason?

Who ever said christians became freemasons because they felt christianity was "lacking"?

 

[wayseer]

I only have one question: What is lacking in Christianity that would compel someone to be a Freemason?

A candidate for Freemasonry must entered the Order on his 'own free will and accord' - not under any compulsion - imaged or otherwise.

 

[DTrain]

No, I don't think so.

 

[Poverello78]

Who ever said christians became freemasons because they felt christianity was "lacking"?

The question itself denotes a perceived possible conflict between the two; if there is a perceived possible conflict, what desire which Christianity does not fulfill drives the question to be asked in the first place? Perhaps it's merely an academic inquiry in this particular instance, but I'm not pointing any fingers--I'm questioning the practical value of the question in general.

I used to say things like "I am a Christian, and a Buddhist", but then I realized, as Justin Martyr said, "All truth, wherever it is found, belongs to us as Christians." The point being that we, as Christians, should never feel a need to identify ourselves with anything other than Christ because, in Christ, "there is no lack"; that is, if there are any truths to be found in that particular set of events and beliefs we have dubbed 'Freemasonry', they are, of course, rooted in Christ, who is the totality of all truth; and if any differences are found, they are, for the Christian, merely falsehoods found intrinsic the practice of 'Freemasonry'.

Therefore, I ask again (perhaps in clearer wording), what does Christianity lack that would have a Christian wanting to also call themselves a Freemason?

 

[Jester4kicks]

The question itself denotes a perceived possible conflict between the two; if there is a perceived possible conflict, what desire which Christianity does not fulfill drives the question to be asked in the first place? Perhaps it's merely an academic inquiry in this particular instance, but I'm not pointing any fingers--I'm questioning the practical value of the question in general.

I used to say things like "I am a Christian, and a Buddhist", but then I realized, as Justin Martyr said, "All truth, wherever it is found, belongs to us as Christians." The point being that we, as Christians, should never feel a need to identify ourselves with anything other than Christ because, in Christ, "there is no lack"; that is, if there are any truths to be found in that particular set of events and beliefs we have dubbed 'Freemasonry', they are, of course, rooted in Christ, who is the totality of all truth; and if any differences are found, they are, for the Christian, merely falsehoods found intrinsic the practice of 'Freemasonry'.

Therefore, I ask again (perhaps in clearer wording), what does Christianity lack that would have a Christian wanting to also call themselves a Freemason?

Maybe I'm catching on.... allow me to attempt a response...

Do you read books other than the bible?

 

[Poverello78]

Maybe I'm catching on.... allow me to attempt a response...

Do you read books other than the bible?

My favorite books are Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis (and also his works about human reasoning and Naturalism in Miracles), The Practice of the Presence of God by Brother Lawrence, Celebration of Discipline by Richard Foster, The Third Jesus: The Christ We Cannot Ignore by Deepak Chopra, and Going Home: Jesus and Buddha as Brothers by Thich Naht Hahn. I also have an interest in Ken Wilber's works, but I disagree with the motivations I perceive him to have.

It's not that I agree with everything they all have to say either, only that they are my own personal 'classics' at this point. If I were to sum up my Christian faith in a phrase, I would have to call it "Christian Mysticism". I try to focus on the practical and internal values of discovered Truth, while avoiding the spiritual crisis of 'fundamentalism'.

 

[Poverello78]

And one other thing which might be of interest is that my philosophical grounds are quite Cartesian. In fact, I didn't even know who Descartes was until someone told me that my ideas about grounds for knowledge and experience sounded exactly like his (years ago).

 

[Jester4kicks]

My favorite books are Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis (and also his works about human reasoning and Naturalism in Miracles), The Practice of the Presence of God by Brother Lawrence, Celebration of Discipline by Richard Foster, The Third Jesus: The Christ We Cannot Ignore by Deepak Chopra, and Going Home: Jesus and Buddha as Brothers by Thich Naht Hahn. I also have an interest in Ken Wilber's works, but I disagree with the motivations I perceive him to have.

It's not that I agree with everything they all have to say either, only that they are my own personal 'classics' at this point. If I were to sum up my Christian faith in a phrase, I would have to call it "Christian Mysticism". I try to focus on the practical and internal values of discovered Truth, while avoiding the spiritual crisis of 'fundamentalism'.

I see... ok, so you clearly read books other than the bible... may I ask why?

 

[Jester4kicks]

Oh... and as long as we're listing favorite books...

Atlas Shrugged
The Fountainhead
Anthem
We the Living
The Virtue of Selfishness
I, Lucifer
Survivor
Lullabye

Just to name a few.

 

[wayseer]

Therefore, I ask again (perhaps in clearer wording), what does Christianity lack that would have a Christian wanting to also call themselves a Freemason?

Your question assumes that people join Freemasonry because Christianity lacks something.

I guess it's a bit like Christians joining the local Progress Association, or the Environmental Movement, or Rotary, or the local football club. You are looking for something that is not there.

Then again, it may be like the reflection of the moon on the water - what you see in others is but a reflection of what you see in yourself.

 

[Poverello78]

I see... ok, so you clearly read books other than the bible... may I ask why?

I read other books because I am determined to know what I believe and why; or, more clearly stated, why I believe and what.

 

[Poverello78]

Your question assumes that people join Freemasonry because Christianity lacks something.

I guess it's a bit like Christians joining the local Progress Association, or the Environmental Movement, or Rotary, or the local football club. You are looking for something that is not there.

Then again, it may be like the reflection of the moon on the water - what you see in others is but a reflection of what you see in yourself.

Think about the question, "Can a Christian join an Environmental Club" for two minutes.

The argument you're presenting assumes that the question is silly from the outset, but the question is asked none-the-less. If I asked, "Can a Christian be a taxi driver", that would seem silly to most people; but the only reason I would ask in the first place is because I personally perceived a conflict between the two, leading to the question, "how does this concept which presents a perceived conflict bring me something I value apart from Christianity which causes me to ask the question in the first place".

Again, if there is a perceived conflict, there must also be a perceived benefit which causes the question to arise; but what is the benefit, and how can a Christian say that they benefit from something apart from their Christian faith?


Do you see?

 

[wayseer]

The argument you're presenting assumes that the question is silly from the outset

No - I don't think the question is 'silly'. However, I just do see where you have indicated just what you question may be.

... the only reason I would ask in the first place is because I personally perceived a conflict between the two, leading to the question, "how does this concept which presents a perceived conflict bring me something I value apart from Christianity which causes me to ask the question in the first place".

So you have to indicate just where this 'conflict' you perceive arises. I'm unaware of any conflict articulated in your posts. However, I'm suggesting that any such 'conflict' which you perceive must also exist with any of the other agencies I mentioned. You have not addressed that issue. Rather, you have avoided the rather obvious conclusion - there is nothing stopping a Christian joining any number of organisations other than, perhaps, your 'perception'.

Again, if there is a perceived conflict, there must also be a perceived benefit which causes the question to arise; but what is the benefit, and how can a Christian say that they benefit from something apart from their Christian faith?

... and, again, if there is any 'benefit' you might address that issue.

Perhaps you could ask Catholics, or Utilitarians, or Baptists, the same question working from your premies there must be a conflict and a benefit. Why do people do anything? I'm sure you could generate a psychological debate that could go on for several years.

What you are effectively doing is indicating that for some reason a Christian cannot become a Freemason without giving any reason other than your 'perception. To that you are welcome - as is anyone to their individual perceptions, which, in all probability, will be different to yours.

 

[Jester4kicks]

I read other books because I am determined to know what I believe and why; or, more clearly stated, why I believe and what.

I see! So reading books inspires you to think about what you believe, and provides different stories for you to consider your values and how they would apply.

Certainly, the bible contains stories that would inspire these kinds of considerations... but I assume you're not saying that christianity is lacking, just because you enjoy reading other books. You seem to just enjoy additional means of exploring your values and beliefs.

Freemasonry is no different.

 

[Rev Wayne]

what does Christianity lack that would have a Christian wanting to also call themselves a Freemason?

In short: nothing.

But why does this question always get put to Masons? Putting this question this way makes it appear that the questioner has automatically concluded that the only possible motivation any Christian could have for joining the lodge is, that they have somehow found Christianity "lacking."

Having been led by the Holy Spirit to join, I find this kind of question difficult to even address, much less answer. It just does not fit anything that I have experienced. Of course, when I give this answer, I always get asked "Why would the Holy Spirit want you to join the lodge," which is no easier a question than the other. Since I don't consider the anti-Masonic accusations valid, and therefore reject the dismissal attempts I get ("the Holy Spirit would NEVER lead you to join," etc.), I have to ask myself what positive thing(s) about the lodge would be the reason for it. So far, any idea about such things would be only my own speculation, so I don't worry about it and simply walk in obedience. Maybe it's to teach me the walk of obedience--to be obedient to the Lord without having to have a reason. Maybe it's something He will reveal farther down the road because in His wisdom He sees that I do not need that information at present. Whatever it is, it's in His hands, not mine, and with that I am satisfied.

 

[Rev Wayne]

My favorite books are Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis (and also his works about human reasoning and Naturalism in Miracles), The Practice of the Presence of God by Brother Lawrence, Celebration of Discipline by Richard Foster, The Third Jesus: The Christ We Cannot Ignore by Deepak Chopra, and Going Home: Jesus and Buddha as Brothers by Thich Naht Hahn. I also have an interest in Ken Wilber's works, but I disagree with the motivations I perceive him to have.

Then we share a little bit of common interest. The first three would be on my list of favorites, especially the first. I had a quote from Mere Christianity that used to hang on my wall or sit on my desktop on a regular basis. It had to do with the choices we make and the result of them, in either one direction, or in the other, and that we are all, at each moment, progressing toward the one or the other. And I loved his analogy of the house in the intro.

 

[Poverello78]

I see! So reading books inspires you to think about what you believe, and provides different stories for you to consider your values and how they would apply.

Certainly, the bible contains stories that would inspire these kinds of considerations... but I assume you're not saying that christianity is lacking, just because you enjoy reading other books. You seem to just enjoy additional means of exploring your values and beliefs.

Freemasonry is no different.

I understand that completely, but it avoids my point about the perceived conflict. If I went around saying "I'm a Freemason because I want to explore my beliefs", or "...because I'm Christian and believe it to be the right thing for me", etc, that would be a totally different story and what I'm saying would irrelevant.

My question and argument follows directly from a person asking "Can one be a Christian and a Freemason", which, as I said, introduces the perceived conflict which in turn begs my original question--the conflict itself makes my question relevant.

I hope I'm making sense. Until this week, I haven't written in quite some time.

 

[Jester4kicks]

I understand that completely, but it avoids my point about the perceived conflict. If I went around saying "I'm a Freemason because I want to explore my beliefs", or "...because I'm Christian and believe it to be the right thing for me", etc, that would be a totally different story and what I'm saying would irrelevant.

My question and argument follows directly from a person asking "Can one be a Christian and a Freemason", which, as I said, introduces the perceived conflict which in turn begs my original question--the conflict itself makes my question relevant.

I hope I'm making sense. Until this week, I haven't written in quite some time.

Let me see if I can paraphrase...

You think that if one thinks there might be a conflict, why wouldn't one just not be a mason?

If that's correct, than that is certainly one way to approach it. However, I believe the question what not designed to provoke the assumption of a possible conflict, but rather to determine if there actually was a conflict.

Does that make sense?

 

[Poverello78]

Let me see if I can paraphrase...

You think that if one thinks there might be a conflict, why wouldn't one just not be a mason?

If that's correct, than that is certainly one way to approach it. However, I believe the question what not designed to provoke the assumption of a possible conflict, but rather to determine if there actually was a conflict.

Does that make sense?

Essentially, that is my point, yes. I just like to extrapolate and make things much more complex than they need to be. haha

As I said though, if there wasn't a perceived possible conflict the question would never be asked to begin with, and it's just this perceived possibility that had me asking, essentially, "in light of a possible conflict, what benefit, what need or desire, do you perceive Freemasonry fulfills which has you asking to begin with".

If the question is purely academic, however, and not an actual individual search for justification, my question is irrelevant. Perhaps it was asked to create a discussion about Christian doctrine, I really don't know. I'm just trying to think of how and where it would realistically apply to an individual's life, and address it as such.

 

[Jester4kicks]

Essentially, that is my point, yes. I just like to extrapolate and make things much more complex than they need to be. haha

As I said though, if there wasn't a perceived possible conflict the question would never be asked to begin with, and it's just this perceived possibility that had me asking, essentially, "in light of a possible conflict, what benefit, what need or desire, do you perceive Freemasonry fulfills which has you asking to begin with".

If the question is purely academic, however, and not an actual individual search for justification, my question is irrelevant. Perhaps it was asked to create a discussion about Christian doctrine, I really don't know. I'm just trying to think of how and where it would realistically apply to an individual's life, and address it as such.

Ok, I think we're on the same page now.

The "perceived conflict" usually comes from two causes; lack of understanding about what Freemasonry is, and the history of the conflict between Freemasonry and the catholic church.

Generally speaking, if the person asking the question is catholic, the answer is simple because of the position that the catholic church has taken on the matter (although they've backed-off of that position in that last 10 years or so).

If the person just doesn't understand what Freemasonry is, they may perceive a possible conflict just because of their lack of information.

Usually, perceived conflicts come from value (or moral) judgements about a subject, organization, or action. This case is slightly different because it's not so much a question of judgement, but rather a matter of understanding what Freemasonry is.

Make sense?