Can a Christian be a Freemason???

[NavyGuy7]

In response to the OP (since I'll never catch up on 8 pages without a quick summary), no, one cannot be a "freemason" and a Christian, as one cannot serve two masters.

 

[Jester4kicks]

In response to the OP (since I'll never catch up on 8 pages without a quick summary), no, one cannot be a "freemason" and a Christian, as one cannot serve two masters.

You probably should read the 8 pages... and do some reading about freemasonry. You seem to be a bit confused about what the role of the "Worshipful Master" (Master of the lodge) actually consists of.

 

[O.F.F.]

Let's make it easy, do you agree with O.F.F.'s assesment of the requirements for salvation, and his point about good deeds being an indicator of real faith? If so, just refer to my response to him... if not, please clarify (in your own words please... sorry, I just don't like bible verses.

It's not my assessment, it's God's based upon His Word (biblical truth). I included the passage in my earlier post (James 2:14-26). But that's right, you ignored it because you just don't like Bible verses.

In another thread on this topic you stated your position about the Bible rather emphatically, saying "Personally, I don't care for the bible..." I take it then, you are not a Christian, correct? If you don't mind my asking, what is your faith background, and upon what VSL did you take your obligation?

 

[Jester4kicks]

It's not my assessment, it's God's based upon His Word (biblical truth). I included the passage in my earlier post (James 2:14-26). But that's right, you ignored it because you just don't like Bible verses.

O.F.F., I described it as your "assessment" simply because it was as you described it. Please don't read into the language that much, I wasn't trying to imply anything beyond that. You wanna go back and actually address my points rather than just being dismissive?

In another thread on this topic you stated your position about the Bible rather emphatically, saying "Personally, I don't care for the bible..." I take it then, you are not a Christian, correct? If you don't mind my asking, what is your faith background, and upon what VSL did you take your obligation?

Nope, definitely not a christian. I was raised episcopalian, but turned away from organized religion when I was 17.

I took my obligation on the bible. This was partly because, as I also said previously, I can still respect the importance of that text to my follow masons even if I don't care for it myself.

 

[merin]

It is probably worth noting that Benjamin Franklin, George Washington, General George Marshall and Theodore Roosevelt were all Masons.

I highly doubt that any of them would have sworn allegiance to Satan or his demons.

Why would anyone doubt this?

 

[Sphinx777]

Why would anyone doubt this?

Does not seem all that sinister... then again, it would not be expected too either ...​

​

 

[Sphinx777]

Great discussions so far....

Thanks for all the replies people, keep it going then....

Rosy Cross


​

 

[Korah]

As Duanewashum quoted it:
"Since God has reconciled the whole world unto Himself through the vicarious life and death of His Son and has commanded that the reconciliation effected by Christ be proclaimed to men in the Gospel, to the end that they may believe it (2 Cor.5:18, 19; Rom. 1:5), therefore faith in Christ is the only way for men to obtain personal reconciliation with God, that is, forgiveness of sins, or justification, which was fully earned for us by Christ and is offered by the Gospel. This faith justifies, not inasmuch as it is a work of man, but inasmuch as it lays hold of the grace offered, the forgiveness of sins (Rom.4:16).” (Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod)
Yuk! Bad interpretation of the verses cited. That's why I'm ELCA, not LCMS.
If I had only Duanewashum and O.F.F. to go on, I would be so repelled by standard Protestantism that I would find the nearest Masonic temple to sign up with.
Korah

 

[O.F.F.]

Nope, definitely not a christian. I was raised episcopalian, but turned away from organized religion when I was 17.

I took my obligation on the bible. This was partly because, as I also said previously, I can still respect the importance of that text to my follow masons even if I don't care for it myself.

If you are no longer an episcopalian, and have turned away from organized religion, what faith or unorganized religion do you currently embrace?

Secondly, the reason I ask is, if you do not believe in the Holy Bible (the only inspired Word of God) then to whom are you accountable if not the God of the Bible on which you were sworn? More importantly from a Masonic perspective, since every candidate is required to take his obligation on that book or the Volume that is held by his particular creed to impart sanctity to an oath or promise taken upon it, how is your obligation binding if the Bible fails to hold your particular creed? If your obligation is not binding, how are you a Mason, since it's your obligation that make you one?

Unless, of course, the Bible is merely a symbol that represents ones VSL:

As one Scottish Grand Lodge authority puts it: "The Volume of the Sacred Law, no matter though it be our Bible or the Sacred Writings of the Hindu, the Zendavesta of the Parsee, or the Koran of the Mohammedan, typifies the Mind or Will of the GAOTU, the Great First Cause - the Creator and Preserver of the Universe - the Great Life-Giver, that Great Unknown and Unknowable which is manifested in His Universe. As the VSL is not read in our Lodges, its teachings per se are of no consequence. It is a symbol and a symbol only, and it is shown as supporting the other two symbols, the Square and Compasses."

The Masonic Trowel

So J4K, this begs the question, what do you consider to be your VSL?

 

[Jester4kicks]

If you are no longer an episcopalian, and have turned away from organized religion, what faith or unorganized religion do you currently embrace?

My belief is my own.

Secondly, the reason I ask is, if you do not believe in the Holy Bible (the only inspired Word of God) then to whom are you accountable if not the God of the Bible on which you were sworn?

I'm accountable to myself, and to the promise I gave.

More importantly from a Masonic perspective, since every candidate is required to take his obligation on that book or the Volume that is held by his particular creed to impart sanctity to an oath or promise taken upon it, how is your obligation binding if the Bible fails to hold your particular creed? If your obligation is not binding, how are you a Mason, since it's your obligation that make you one?

My obligation is binding because I gave my word and made my promise. Even if I accept that an oath must be taken on a VSL that a mason believes in, I would have to accept the idea that breaking said oath would incur whatever type of penalty that particular VSL perscribes for breaking a promise to god. Unfortunately, in terms of the bible, that penalty would be some kind of condemnation. Problem is, I don't believe in hell (or purgatory, whatever you want to call it). So no matter what VSL I chose, the penalty of breaking my obligation would still come down to dishonoring myself and breaking my word.

Unless, of course, the Bible is merely a symbol that represents ones VSL:

I'm sure many of my brother masons believe in the bible... I just don't. So far, I haven't seen anything that requires a mason to absolutely believe in the bible, or any other specific text.

So J4K, this begs the question, what do you consider to be your VSL?

I really don't believe in any particular religious text. I suppose if I had to make a choice about some text to most-closely illustrates my thoughts on the matter, it would be the Tao Te Ching.

 

[Texas Lynn]

In response to the OP (since I'll never catch up on 8 pages without a quick summary), no, one cannot be a "freemason" and a Christian, as one cannot serve two masters.

You understand that the "Master" of a Lodge is a presiding officer and not a "Master" like a slave's master or what the Hunchback Igor meant when he called Victor Frankenstein "Master", right?

So by your logic, then, a Christian cannot serve in the Armed Forces.

 

[Texas Lynn]

Why would anyone doubt this?

There's no reason to believe it as no evidence has been produced to support it.

 

[duanewashum]

NavyGuy7.

Please be assured that many of us in this country are thankful for your service in the military; please also be assured that many of us DO NOT question your ability to be both a Christian and a member of our fighting forces.

Thank you for serving this nation, but most of all thank you for serving the Lord.

 

[NavyGuy7]

You understand that the "Master" of a Lodge is a presiding officer and not a "Master" like a slave's master or what the Hunchback Igor meant when he called Victor Frankenstein "Master", right?

So by your logic, then, a Christian cannot serve in the Armed Forces.

I think you took my meaning of "master" way too literally. It had nothing to do with slavery.
And by my logic, a Christian CAN serve in teh armed forces.. after all, I should know, being a Sailor.
What is meant by the "two masters" thing is I kinda took it out of context. It's actually a verse.... lemme see if i can find it.
*pulls it out of the thin air known as the Internet*
Matthew 6:24 (New International Version)

No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.


So as you can see, it is out of context, but nevertheless I feel it can apply to more than just "money".
Seriously, before you even start to try and ridicule my first post in this section of the forums, try to be civil first. I have to deal with enough rude posters in the General Apologetics section that is now in Outreach.
And if you think I"m a greenhorn, think again.

 

[NavyGuy7]

NavyGuy7.

Please be assured that many of us in this country are thankful for your service in the military; please also be assured that many of us DO NOT question your ability to be both a Christian and a member of our fighting forces.

Thank you for serving this nation, but most of all thank you for serving the Lord.

Thank you.
Just for the record, I hate being in the navy (but that could change, as I'm still in training and adjusting to a new world).
SO I guess the verse kinda applies to me, for now, lol.
Of course, if I was ever ordered to do something immoral/against God I'd have to disobey and take a court martial.

My allegiance is to God first, then my country.
So, as you can see, Tex, I don't think it is my logic that is flawed here.

 

[Jester4kicks]

I think you took my meaning of "master" way too literally. It had nothing to do with slavery.
And by my logic, a Christian CAN serve in teh armed forces.. after all, I should know, being a Sailor.
What is meant by the "two masters" thing is I kinda took it out of context. It's actually a verse.... lemme see if i can find it.
*pulls it out of the thin air known as the Internet*
Matthew 6:24 (New International Version)

No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.


So as you can see, it is out of context, but nevertheless I feel it can apply to more than just "money".
Seriously, before you even start to try and ridicule my first post in this section of the forums, try to be civil first. I have to deal with enough rude posters in the General Apologetics section that is now in Outreach.
And if you think I"m a greenhorn, think again.

Umm... maybe you need to take a step back and not be so defensive. He wasn't ridiculing you, he was pointing out the role of the master of the lodge, and explaining why your analogy didn't apply. He developed that further by pointing out that the logic that you seemed to apply, would preclude a christian from military service.

I still don't see how your analogy was meant to be applied, if it wasn't supposed to address a lodge master. Which other "master" were you referring to?

 

[NavyGuy7]

Umm... maybe you need to take a step back and not be so defensive. He wasn't ridiculing you, he was pointing out the role of the master of the lodge, and explaining why your analogy didn't apply. He developed that further by pointing out that the logic that you seemed to apply, would preclude a christian from military service.

I still don't see how your analogy was meant to be applied, if it wasn't supposed to address a lodge master. Which other "master" were you referring to?

The whole of the Freemasons, or whatever you call it. And also Christianity. On the one hand, we have the Freemasons, and the other, Christianity.
Also, I knew he wasn't ridiculing me, nor did I take an outright defensive position. I'm naturally care-free.
However, if I came across that way, it would only be because of my experiences in teh Outreach forum. Text can sometimes sound rude, as it can not convey every emotion or tone of voice accurately.
Like right now, my voice would be calm, and serious, with the hint of a smile. I'm in a good mood right now.
and by the last line of that one post, I was merely stating I'm not entirely new to CF or its debate forums. Hence the .

 

[NavyGuy7]

Okay, after rereading my post, I did overreact a little. I was probably still mad at a certain poster who has been harassing me lately.
Sorry! I apologize.

 

[Jester4kicks]

The whole of the Freemasons, or whatever you call it. And also Christianity. On the one hand, we have the Freemasons, and the other, Christianity.

I still don't understand why you think the two are "competing".

When you say "on one hand, christianity, and on the other freemasonry"... you're making no more of a "comparison" than if you were to say "on the one hand, walmart, and on the other, tacos", or, "on the one hand, the geo-political climate of south africa, and on the other, Green".

The comparison makes no sense.

 

[duanewashum]

Hi, NavyGuy7.

Not at all out of context. Some folks just like to find any excuse and opportunity to ridicule Christians.

Matthew 6:24: No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

From 'David Guzik's Commentaries on the Bible': "Jesus states that serving two masters is a simple impossibility. If you think that you are successfully serving two masters, you are deceived. It can't be done. As ancient Israel struggled with idolatry, they thought they could worship the Lord God and Baal. God constantly reminded them that to worship Baal was to forsake the Lord God. To be loyal to the one is to despise the other."

It certainly applies where Freemasonry is concerned. We either serve the True and Living God who is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; or we serve the conglomerated mess Masonry refers to as its "Great Architect Of The Universe", which it says is anything and everything anybody wants to call it.

You are correct in the attitudes that a couple of folks here have exhibited toward you. What they lack in civility, they seem to make up for in arrogance.

Thanks for the info, Jester:
'The Colorado Craftsman or Masonic Monitor': "The lamb has been deemed in all ages an emblem of innocence. He, therefore, who wears the lambskin as a badge of Masonry, is constantly reminded of that purity of life and conduct which is so essentially necessary to his gaining admission into the Celestial Lodge above, over which the Supreme Architect of the Universe presides."

There goes that term them pesky ritualists seem to be hung up on again, even in Colorado, huh?