Calvin's Commentarys and Perseverance

[WilliamRoper]

We Calvinist believe, as did St. Augustine, that the Lord has elected some to eternal salvation from before the Creation of the World.

This statement is slightly misleading. St. Augustine did teach that God has elected some to eternal salvation from before the beginning of the world, as did St. Paul and the Catholic Church. However, Paul, Augustine, and the Catholic Church disagree with Calvinism because Calvinism teaches that everyone who first believe in Christ will persevere to the end. This is not true. There are some people who will believe and then fall away. There are some people who are predestined to not believe at all, some who are predestined to believe and persevere to the end, and some people who are predestined to believe for a little while and then fall away.

Here is what St. Augustine wrote in the 21st chapter of his book on The Gift of Perseverance:

[O]f two pious men, why to the one should be given perseverance unto the end, and to the other it should not be given, God's judgments are even more unsearchable. . . . had not both been called and followed him that called them? And had not both become, from wicked men, justified men and both been renewed by the laver of regeneration? . . . In respect of all these things, they were of us. Nevertheless, in respect of a certain other distinction, they were not of us, for if they had been of us, they certainly would have continued with us. What then is this distinction? God's books lie open, let us not turn away our view. The divine Scripture cries aloud, let us give it a hearing. They were not of them because they had not been 'called according to the purpose.' They had not been chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world; they had not gained a lot in him. They had not been predestined according to his purpose who works all things.

That is not Calvinism by a long shot.

 

[AndOne]

Actually the quote from Augustine is very Calvinist. He is in essence saying that those who fell away - were never a part of them to begin with. In other words - they were never saved. This is what Calvinism teaches.

Those who believe - and later fall away - never were saved. It's pretty simple - and pretty simply laid out there by Augusine. We believe that once a person truly believes - they will not and cannot fall away. Those who fall away provide evidence of their "not being predestined."

 

[WilliamRoper]

Actually the quote from Augustine is very Calvinist. He is in essence saying that those who fell away - were never a part of them to begin with. In other words - they were never saved. This is what Calvinism teaches.

Augustine says that they were "not of us", but differently than a Calvinist would understand it. A Calvinist would take it to mean that a person who fell away was not "of us" because he never believed to begin with, but Augustine said that they were "not of us" because they were not predestined to persevere:

And had not both become, from wicked men, justified men and both been renewed by the laver of regeneration? . . . In respect of all these things, they were of us.

Augustine's words are clear. He did not say that those who fell away never believed to begin with or that they were never regenerated. In fact, he says that:"In respect of all these things [i.e., justification and regeneration], they were of us."

What is the difference between those who fall away and those who persevere? It is quite simple: the eternal decree of God. God has chosen those who will persevere to the end and who will fall away. Augustine did not say that God predestined everybody who believes in Christ to persevere to the end. He says that some who have been regenerated are predestined to fall away, and some are predestined to persevere in the faith.

Thus Augustine says:

They were not of them because they had not been 'called according to the purpose.' They had not been chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world; they had not gained a lot in him. They had not been predestined according to his purpose who works all things.

It could not be more clear. Augustine was not saying that those who fell away never believed in the first place. He says that those who fall away were not predestined to persevere.


So, again, no... you are wrong. Augustine did not teach the Perseverance of the Saints doctrine. He did not teach that "one a person truly believes- they can not and will not fall away." He taught that there is a specific group of people who have been predestined to persevere, and another group that have been predestined to believe for a while and then fall away.

 

[AndOne]

If you want to read your church's meaning into the clear and precise teaching of Augustine that's cool - but for the record I don't buy it. Besides - it looks to me you are getting all caught up into semantics - probably because what Augustine has actually written and what your church tries to tell you he wrote are so clearly two different things.

"Predestined to Persevere" - means exactly what it says. If someone doesn't persevere then obviously they weren't predestined to begin with.

 

[WilliamRoper]

"Predestined to Persevere" - means exactly what it says. If someone doesn't persevere then obviously they weren't predestined to begin with.

The whole point, however- the whole difference in our opinions- is that not all those who believe are predestined to persevere. Some are predestined to persevere and fall away.

You are also wrongly equating "predestine" with "regeneration" and "justification." The two are related, but are not the same thing. A person can be predestined to hell, a person can be predestined to believe and then fall away, and a person can be predestined to believe and to persevere to the end.

We Catholics make a distinction between "perseverance to grace" and "perseverance to glory." There are some who are predestined to be justified (the "predestined to grace", but then to apostasize and lose their justification. Similarly, there are some who are predestined to be justified and to persevere in the faith (the "predestined to glory").

If you want to read your church's meaning into the clear and precise teaching of Augustine that's cool - but for the record I don't buy it. Besides - it looks to me you are getting all caught up into semantics - probably because what Augustine has actually written and what your church tries to tell you he wrote are so clearly two different things.

There is no need to become rude. All I have done is to go into exactly what Augustine meant in this text. I have shown that Augustine did not teach the Perseverance of the Saints as Calvinists understand it. If you believe I am wrong, then please Enter into the "semantics" with me and try to prove me wrong. But right now you have just made a blank assertion without proving anything. If I am wrong about Augustine, prove it! And no, I am not reading "your church's meaning into the clear and precise teaching of Augustine"- it just so happens that Augustine agrees completely with the teachings of my church. As I demonstrated above, it is the Calvinists who read their meanings into the clear and precise teachings of St. Augustine.

 

[WilliamRoper]

Forgive me, but I have a passion for vigourous reasoning and theological precision.

 

[AndOne]

Yes but now you are getting away from what Augustine actually said - and are talking about our differences in opinion.

When I tell you I don't buy you or your church's interpretation of Augustine - it is not meant to be rude. I am simply saying I don't buy it or accept the Catholic Church's teaching or interpretation of what Augustine said about this. I accept what the man himself had to say.

Also - how on earth do you expect me to prove anything to you. Seems to me your mind is already made up. If you can't even read Augustine for what he is actually saying what else can I do. The man is talking about those who are predestined to persevere - but you want it to say something else - such as "predestined to persevere to glory" or those who are "predestined to grace." Just because YOU Catholics see a distinction in the two does not mean that Augustine did.

And that is precisely the point I am trying to make - you don't want to see what Augustine actually said - but what your church says he said.

 

[WilliamRoper]

When I tell you I don't buy you or your church's interpretation of Augustine - it is not meant to be rude. I am simply saying I don't buy it or accept the Catholic Church's teaching or interpretation of what Augustine said about this. I accept what the man himself had to say.

Also - how on earth do you expect me to prove anything to you. Seems to me your mind is already made up. If you can't even read Augustine for what he is actually saying what else can I do. The man is talking about those who are predestined to persevere - but you want it to say something else - such as "predestined to persevere to glory" or those who are "predestined to grace." Just because YOU Catholics see a distinction in the two does not mean that Augustine did.

And that is precisely the point I am trying to make - you don't want to see what Augustine actually said - but what your church says he said.

Why, then, did Augustine call those who had formerly believed but then fell away "justified men" who had been "renewed by the laver of regeneration"? Why had he said: "In respect of all these things [i.e., justification and regeneration], they were of us"?

You can talk as if you "read Augustine for what he is actually saying", but you have not really given me an in-depth response to my interpretation. Until you refute what I actually wrote, my interpretation still stands. But if you have nothing to offer, please do not even waste your time trying to refute me.

The man is talking about those who are predestined to persevere - but you want it to say something else - such as "predestined to persevere to glory" or those who are "predestined to grace."

Sure he doesn't use the exact terms, but it is implied in what Augustine wrote:


[O]f two pious men, why to the one should be given [through God's predestination] perseverance unto the end [i.e., perseverance to the end of life, "perseverance to glory"], and to the other it should not be given [i.e., the grace necessary to persevere in the faith, the result of "predestination to grace"], God's judgments are even more unsearchable. . . . had not both been called and followed him that called them? And had not both become, from wicked men, justified men and both been renewed by the laver of regeneration? [Here Augustine clearly indicates that those who fell away did have grace to begin with, not because they "never believed in the first place"] . . . In respect of all these things, they were of us. [those who are not predestined to glory nevertheless may have been predestined to be justified and believe for a little while] Nevertheless, in respect of a certain other distinction, they were not of us, for if they had been of us [not having been predestined to persevere in the faith], they certainly would have continued with us. What then is this distinction? [between those predestined to believe and fall away and those predestined to believe and persevere to the end] God's books lie open, let us not turn away our view. The divine Scripture cries aloud, let us give it a hearing. They were not of them because they had not been 'called according to the purpose.' [not been predestined to glory in heaven] They had not been chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world; they had not gained a lot in him. They had not been predestined according to his purpose who works all things. [they have not been chosen by God to enter heaven, but to fall away from the faith while still on earth]

 

[WilliamRoper]

Also - how on earth do you expect me to prove anything to you. Seems to me your mind is already made up.

This is a familiar question I see on ChristianForums. The answer is simple- if you want to prove anything to me, show me by Augustine's own words that you are right and I am wrong. That is all you need to do (believe it or not).

 

[AndOne]

[O]f two pious men, why to the one should be given [through God's predestination] perseverance unto the end [i.e., perseverance to the end of life, "perseverance to glory"], and to the other it should not be given [i.e., the grace necessary to persevere in the faith, the result of "predestination to grace"], God's judgments are even more unsearchable. . . . had not both been called and followed him that called them? And had not both become, from wicked men, justified men and both been renewed by the laver of regeneration? [Here Augustine clearly indicates that those who fell away did have grace to begin with, not because they "never believed in the first place"] . . . In respect of all these things, they were of us. [those who are not predestined to glory nevertheless may have been predestined to be justified and believe for a little while] Nevertheless, in respect of a certain other distinction, they were not of us, for if they had been of us [not having been predestined to persevere in the faith], they certainly would have continued with us. What then is this distinction? [between those predestined to believe and fall away and those predestined to believe and persevere to the end] God's books lie open, let us not turn away our view. The divine Scripture cries aloud, let us give it a hearing. They were not of them because they had not been 'called according to the purpose.' [not been predestined to glory in heaven] They had not been chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world; they had not gained a lot in him. They had not been predestined according to his purpose who works all things. [they have not been chosen by God to enter heaven, but to fall away from the faith while still on earth]

Wonderful - now you are going to go ahead and incert your own meaning (or probably the Catholic Church's) into the text. Don't you see you are proving my point for me.... Wow!

I don't think you are quite so precise or vigorous in reasoning as you think you are. Perhaps vigorous in interpretation would be a bit more appropriate here. I see no precision though..

 

[WilliamRoper]

Wonderful - now you are going to go ahead and incert your own meaning (or probably the Catholic Church's) into the text. Don't you see you are proving my point for me.... Wow!

Ive just restated what Augustine wrote so its clear for you to understand.

Why do you insist on just dismissing what I have to say? Why don't you read my interpretation and critique it (to prove, after all, that you are right)? That is all that I have been trying to get you to do, but you aren't doing it at all. Do I have to twist your arm to get him to have a proper discussion with me?

...But if you have nothing to offer, please do not even waste your time trying to refute me.

 

[WilliamRoper]

WR: Here's what Augustine wrote. You can see that it clearly contradicts the Perseverance of the Saints doctrine

BB: You're just reading the doctrines of your Church into the clear and precise teachings of Augustine!

WR: Well, lets see what Augustine actually wrote. Here is his text, and here is my interpretation of it. If you want to prove me wrong, then try to refute it and provide your own interpretation

BB: You are just giving your Church's interpretation of the text. You aren't reading what Augustine actually wrote.

WR: I have given you my interpretation of the text, and I have invited you to refute it. You have not done that. Augustine did not believe in the Perseverance of the Saints doctrine, and I have his words to prove it. I have given my interpretation of his words, and left them open for you to critique.

BB: All that you are giving is your (or your Church's) interpretation of Augustine, not what Augustine said. You are reading another meaning into the clear teachings of Augustine

WR: Are you going to respond to any of my exegesis at all? Are you going to just dismiss whatever I have to say?

BB: I dismiss what you have to say - simply because it is not what Augustine said. Augustine presents his own case quite clearly. I don't need to give an interpretation - if I did I would just be restating what he has already said. His words stand on their own. I am simply trying to get you to see that they need no interpretation from you or the Catholic Church. If you don't like the doctrine of "perseverence" that is your perogative - but to say Augustine didn't teach it - is misleading and untrue. Especially when you disrespectfully add to the man's text more than what he is saying.

WR: I said that I was re-stating Augustine's words so that you can understand it, not "adding to the man's text." Again- I ask you- please refute my exegesis of Augustine's text. In case you haven't noticed, you haven't done that yet. You have just dismissed the idea that Augustine meant something different from the way you understand him. You believe that "his words stand on their own"... and I do too! I believe that I shouldn't have to go the extra mile to prove that Augustine was not a Calvinist, but you asked for it. And again, would you at least show me how my interetation is off, if it is off?

BB: [pending further response]

 

[AndOne]

Ive just restated what Augustine wrote so its clear for you to understand.

Why do you insist on just dismissing what I have to say? Why don't you read my interpretation and critique it (to prove, after all, that you are right)? That is all that I have been trying to get you to do, but you aren't doing it at all. Do I have to twist your arm to get him to have a proper discussion with me?

I dismiss what you have to say - simply because it is not what Augustine said. Augustine presents his own case quite clearly. I don't need to give an interpretation - if I did I would just be restating what he has already said. His words stand on their own. I am simply trying to get you to see that they need no interpretation from you or the Catholic Church. If you don't like the doctrine of "perseverence" that is your perogative - but to say Augustine didn't teach it - is misleading and untrue. Especially when you disrespectfully add to the man's text more than what he is saying.

 

[WilliamRoper]

Behe's Boy, your words were so laughable (considering I just made a parody about your logic) that I am going to integrate your exact words into my parody.

 

[AndOne]

In Regards to grace Augustine said:

"In this way, neither does he who is saved have a basis for glorying in any merit of his own; nor does the man who is damned have a basis for complaining of anything except what he has fully merited. For grace alone separates the redeemed from the lost, all having been mingled together in the one mass of perdition, arising from a common cause which leads back to their common origin." Augustine of Hipo - from "PREDESTINATION AND THE JUSTICE OF GOD"

According to Augustine then there is only thing that seperates the saved from the damned - GRACE. Therefore he could not be talking about two different types or "predestination unto perseverence." Only those who are "predestined to persevere" know Grace - and will know glory. There is no in between. Once you are saved you cannot fall away.

 

[AndOne]

Behe's Boy, your words were so laughable (considering I just made a parody about your logic) that I am going to integrate your exact words into my parody.

Just when I was thinking you were a bit more mature for your age I read this.... Now I'm dissapointed.

 

[Catholic Dude]

If you want to read your church's meaning into the clear and precise teaching of Augustine that's cool - but for the record I don't buy it. Besides - it looks to me you are getting all caught up into semantics - probably because what Augustine has actually written and what your church tries to tell you he wrote are so clearly two different things.

"Predestined to Persevere" - means exactly what it says. If someone doesn't persevere then obviously they weren't predestined to begin with.

So far you have failed to distinguish between justified and final salvation. For example Augustine clearly defines justification by means of "laver of regeneration" that means Baptism.

Also an important note here, the stuff Augustine is talking about is close to what is believed in calvinism, the problem is the stuff that has to be removed from Augustine to make it calvinist.

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

I sent tthe following PM to Mr. William Roper:

Mr. Roper,

You are a welcome guest at Semper Reformanda, but you are not welcome to make ugly remarks.

Technically speaking you are not to debate there at all. We have allowed it thus far, but you will be asked to leave if you want to make snide comments.

Now with that said, I've picked up a staph infection and have been mostly not up to posting.

I am now on some antibiotics and pain relievers, so i hope to be up to the discussion again soon.

In Christ,
Kenith
+++++

I hope I feel well enough to read everything up to this point and comment soon.

In Christ,
Kenith

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

Mr . Roper,

Behe is correct and your quote in post #21from Augustine is perfectly in line with Calvinism. I think you too are confusing perseverance with the modern evangelical teaching of OSAS.

Here is a quote from Calvin on this subject as well. He says these things about the parable of the sower:

“This class differs from the former; for temporary faith, being a sort of vegetation of the seed, promises at first some fruit; but their hearts are not so properly and thoroughly subdued, as to have the softness necessary for their continued nourishment. We see too many of this class in our own day, who eagerly embrace the Gospel, and shortly afterwards fall off; for they have not the lively affection that is necessary to give them firmness and perseverance.”

“As corn, which otherwise might have been productive, no sooner rises into the stalk than it is choked by thorns and other matters injurious to its growth; so the sinful affections of the flesh prevail over the hearts of men, and overcome faith, and thus destroy the force of the heavenly doctrine, before it has reached maturity.”

As with my opening post, I could give more examples. Augustine and Calvin were together on this issue. There are issues that Calvin and Augustine disagree on, but this is not one of them.

BTW: Since I am a Calvinist (as is Behe) and think like a Calvinists (as does Behe) , than I (he) should know whether or not I (he) agrees with Augustine in the quote you give. I do, I agree with it perfectly.

I will comment more when I feel up to it. The meds have me feeling a bit nauseated right now, but I will get back and respond more when I feel better.

Dominus Vobiscum,
Kenith

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

So far you have failed to distinguish between justified and final salvation. For example Augustine clearly defines justification by means of "laver of regeneration" that means Baptism.

Also an important note here, the stuff Augustine is talking about is close to what is believed in calvinism, the problem is the stuff that has to be removed from Augustine to make it calvinist.

Hello Catholic Dude,

Augustine believed that salvation is to be found in the Church. One is brought into the Church through baptism. Calvin too would agree with St. Augustine at this point (though not on all items). Remember the first couple of questions to the catechism that Calvin wrote for children while he was at Strasburg? He wrote:
Teacher: My child, are you a Christian in fact as well as in name?
Child: Yes, my father.
Teacher: How is this known to you?
Child: Because I am baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

Roman Catholics and Reformed Christians differ for real on some very important points, but many people seem to confuse Reformed thought with much that comes out of modern Evangelicalism (I grant that some Reformed people, at some points, think more like evangelicals than Reformed).

The point is the historic Reformed Faith is covenantal and takes things Baptism and the Supper far more seriously than do modern Evangelicals.

Augustine clearly believed in predestination and perseverance of those predestined to eternal. Calvinists agree with him here and Roman Catholics (for the most part) do not.

In Christ,
Kenith