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orthotomeo said:To rephrase it:
Does anything in the history of the universe happen without God directly decreeing and causing it to happen? Or does He decree and cause only some things that happen, while other things He merely allows to happen?
Predestination is a proactive act, it is not the result of inaction. Any attempt to combine the two is like trying to stretch a ticks butt over a 55 gallon rain barrel...rnmomof7 said:What do you see as the difference?
If God foreknows some future event and allows it to stand, he has by his inaction predestined the event to occur .
Chappie said:Predestination is a proactive act, it is not the result of inaction. Any attempt to combine the two is like trying to stretch a ticks but over a 55 gallon rain barrel...
Here you do much harn to the credibility of your reformed theology..
Always something new, now we have to think. Ok, i'll play your little game: But if I have to think, you will have to think also..rnmomof7 said:You need to think Chap
Would that be kinda like, if I saw you about to committ suicide, and I decided to do nothing; would that mean that I predestined your suicide. I could do that. You don't have to be God to do nothing.If God looking down your tube of time sees you with a gun in your hand pointed to your head and pulling the trigger and He does not intervene you suicide has been assured . By His non action he has positively predestined your death.
Discuss it all you want, it still is silly. It still is not true...The very heart of Reform theology discuss an active or passive ordination.
To say that God predestined Adam's sin would mean that he is not a God of love, he is not a benovelent God. He is in fact a shister, an expert at three card molly. He is good at doing things and then blaiming them on others. I do not care if he is God, he is not much of a God if he blames and punishes others for his actions.I happen to believe in positive decrees, But we can look at the fall and see that Gods decision not to intervene in the sin was a passive act that was a positive predestination
http://www.the-highway.com/Bavinck_predestination.html
Chappie said:Always something new, now we have to think. Ok, i'll play your little game: But if I have to think, you will have to think also..
Would that be kinda like, if I saw you about to committ suicide, and I decided to do nothing; would that mean that I predestined your suicide. I could do that. You don't have to be God to do nothing.
Baring that, you could have a change of heart. The Gun could missfire, what if you miss? What would happen to your predestination in that case.
Do you understand omniseience or Foreknowlege.? God sees events that are assured , there would be no change in the event unless He acted.And if God controled events sufficiently to produce the suicide, then there was no suicide. It was a killing. And God did it. What if I/he were to just step back and respect your freewill to choose the manner of your death. What do I/he predestine in that case.
Predestination requires the exercise of ones power to cause certain things to come to pass. Being a lookie-lou does not meet the criteria for predestination. Predestination by ommision is silly... Predestination means that God chose, and caused an event to happen... He was not a by-stander....
To say that God predestined Adam's sin would mean that he is not a God of love, he is not a benovelent God. He is in fact a shister, an expert at three card molly. He is good at doing things and then blaiming them on others. I do not care if he is God, he is not much of a God if he blames and punishes others for his actions.
Can you not see that predestination requires premeditation and proactivity on the part of the one doing the predestinating. No one, even Reformed Theology's god predestines anything standing on the sidelines watching. I don't care how many decrees you believe in. Predestination is the result of power to bring an event to pass...
He [Calvin's God] is good at doing things and then blaming them on others. I do not care if he is God - he is not much of a God if he blames and punishes others for his actions.
Chappie said:Until you are willing to follow some reason and logic in discussing things, you and reformed theology will remain a mystery steeped in foolishness to all those that adheer to the mechanics of the language that we speak. Bible dictionaries give us a standardized deffinition of words so that we can communicate, your double talk only confuses things.
But I must say that I love what you are doing, with advocacy such as this, future generations of possible Reformers will be unable to communicate with each other. Assuring the eventual demise of this darkness.
It is in remission, future generations will hopefully not have to suffer the darkness of this theology. And if I can do anything to keep you talking as illogical as you are, I will have done my part to put this stuff to rest.....
frumanchu said:
Please explain for the kids at home how Calvinism teaches that God MAKES men reject Him. Try to use quotes. Historic creeds would be even better.
And to others it is given to think that they understand, but they are dead wrong... Worry...rnmomof7 said:Dont worry Chapie to those it is given to understand ...will
It is not necessary for God to act to make men reject Him. That is the point. Men are born rejecting Him just as their father Adam did.
Can we therefore conclude from this statement that it was not necessary that God predestined Adam's sin. Some reformers say that Adam's sin was necessary so that God could show his mercy. Glad that you disagree...rnmomof7 said:It is not necessary for God to act to make men reject Him. That is the point. Men are born rejecting Him just as their father Adam did.
God acts to bring people to Him .
Rom 3:11
There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
I know the Lord will make a way, he said he would:Rom 3:12
They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
He's quite creative. He's making it up as he needs it...orthotomeo said:Chappie,
Does this sound like somebody who actually understands what Calvin taught? Or does it sound like someone who is making it up as she goes along?
o.
rnmomof7 said:Actually Amazing grace was written by a Calvinist..
And indeed we do believe that Gods grace is amazing.
No man deserves to be spared the fires of Hell. There is none that have any right to to claim it as their do .That is what Mercy means. There is nothing that any man can do to earn it.
God has set apart a remnant for Himself to save out of this world
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace
All men born after the flood are of Noah's family. Did you mean saved from the flood, or saved as in eternally with the father.... Can you see a difference here?Just as God elected to save Noah and his family for a remnant and He chose to elect Israel from the mass of nations . He has set aside a remnant for himself in these last days.
The scripture does not say a remnant has set aside themselves , it places the choice squarely on God.
They were all priests chosen by God to evangelize the world. They failed. They were replaced by the church...Deu 7:6**
For thou [art] an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that [are] upon the face of the earth.
Exodus 19Deu 7:7
The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye [were] the fewest of all people:
The promise was to Abram, father of a nation. A promise that changed his name to Abraham. Father of many nations. Accomplished when Christ shed his blood to bring many to salvation.Deu 7:8**
But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
We love Him , because He loved us first.
Chappie said:[/b]
John 3
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
That remnant, they are the whosoever believeth of John 3:16....
All men born after the flood are of Noah's family. Did you mean saved from the flood, or saved as in eternally with the father.... Can you see a difference here?
Was all Israel saved by election, or were they saved by Grace through Faith like everyone else. Or were they saved by pickey wickey, choosie woosie?
Even as you say that all of Noah's family was saved, you know that it is true only in regard to the flood. And as you proclaim Israel as God's elect, you know that they were not all saved. What!!!! An elect of God in hell.... Of God's true elect, he will lose none.
That is true.rnmomof7 said:We agree that whosoever believes will be saved. The question is who is the whosoever?
Jhn 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
*
Mat 16:17**
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Phl 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
Act 14:27**
And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.
Psalms 65:4 "Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple."
John Chapter 6 clearly points out who will believe and why
Did I ever suggest that other than Noah ANY member of Noah's family was elect to salvation?
Noah was chosen of God to continue the race of man.
He was also elect of God for salvation
The bible never says that. You said that....
The elect are the elect, but nowhere is scripture is it stated that they were predestined to be the elect. Noah "found" grace. No where does it say that Noah was predestined to find grace... Or that God found it for him...I believe if you read the New Testament you will see that Noah was saved by Faith to salvation . There was no promise of eternal salvation for his family. Noah was the elect .
His family was blessed because of Noah ...but it never says that God found favor with them ( gave them grace)
I have no problem with Israel . Scripture is clear that the nation of Israel was Gods chosen nation, They were chosen because the Father of that nation Abraham was elect of God to be the Father of the line through which the Messiah would come , we know Abraham was elect to salvation . It was his seed that was blessed ...but no where is there a promise of salvation for all of His seed .
Deu 7:7
The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye [were] the fewest of all people:
Deu 7:8
But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
God honored and blessed and set aside the nation of Israel and chose them because of His faithfulness to Abraham .
Remember for the sake of Abraham God preserved Ishmael and Lot .
Abraham was the elect of God to salvation . It was from his seed that would come a savior. They were chosen (elected)for a purpose not for universal salvation .
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