Calvinistic Leanings

[eutychus]

I've been a Calvinist for about four years, and in that time I've observed basically two Reformed groups within the Calvinist domain: those who abstain, and those who partake. As for the latter, I'm not talking about sins called out in Scripture, but instead...finer points that spark debates on internet forums and college dormitories. The latter will accuse the former of being legalistic, and the former will accuse the latter of being worldly.

I go to a conservative, Reformed seminary, and I've seen the gamut of both groups. For instance, I can have one professor who believes in listening only to classical music because of his theology and another who could be seen at a Brad Paisly concert for the same reason. There are some who smoke, some who think it is a terrible thing to do; some who avoid any hint of vulgarity in speech, some who use it when necessary.

Don't think that I'm saying the two groups are good--I think I definitely need to make a daily conscious effort to shift toward the middle of the road. I'm just saying which soap box you'd more than likely stand upon. Nonetheless...I was wondering who would place themselves in what crowd that are on this forum, if you care to give that information.

I fall more into the liberal, "touch and partake" camp.

 

[Jon_]

Well, here's the thing, all sins are called out in Scripture. Sin is missing the mark. It is failing to conform to God's righteousness--failing to live totally righteous. In that sense, man is utterly incapable of doing so.

But what you're talking about is something that has always haunted Christianity. Did you know that during the Medieval Ages, the Catholic church actually supported the establishment and use of brothels, so that men could "safely" satisfy their urges without sneaking around with someone else's wife? It wasn't even viewed as sinful. It was just something that was necessary.

Regardless of how we feel about a particular sin, if the Bible calls it sin, it is. For instance, swearing (oath-making) is denounced a number of times in Scripture. Also denounced is the use of foul languange. This passage very much refers to crude vernacular of a profane nature. Smoking is also condemned because it destroys the body. Just as when we sin sexually we sin against our own body, so do we sin against our body when we pollute it unnecessarily.

Music is greyer. In that we refer to Paul's words, "Whatever is not of faith is sin." If one cannot faithfully listen to anything except Bach, then one must only listen to Bach. On the other hand, if one does not struggle with secular influences in music, then that is okay for them as well. For instance, many Christians seem to automatically think that metal is of the devil, but I listen to secular metal exclusively. It is simply not something that causes me to stumble. But obviously I don't play that kind of music around others that could be affected by it.

Legalism applies to things that are permissible but are nevertheless denied. For example, I used to attend a Nazarene church and Nazarenes forbid listening to secular music, dancing, drinking, etc. These are all legalistic positions. I think many people tend to begin painting with the brush of legalism too quickly. They see it as a catch-all they can use to fight off people that disagree with what they are doing. That being said, I think that I would be fairly conservative, with some liberal streaks--secular music, secular literature, etc. Of course, I don't advocate that anyone can listen to secular music, only those who can do so without stumbling.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[JJB]

On these issues I tend to fall on the conservative side. I don't want to be a stumbling block for any brother or sister. Once you have children, you really begin to evaluate whether certain things are really necessary and why you participate or partake. Children are our brethren, and I don't want them to stumble from my liberties.

One instance I can think of, is our daughter just doesn't like it when we drink wine. And we typically have one glass. For some reason, she doesn't like it. When she's older perhaps that will change, but for now that's just how life is.

Jon, heavy metal?! Who'da thunk?!

 

[Imblessed]

Calvinistic Leanings

I've been a Calvinist for about four years, and in that time I've observed basically two Reformed groups within the Calvinist domain: those who abstain, and those who partake. As for the latter, I'm not talking about sins called out in Scripture, but instead...finer points that spark debates on internet forums and college dormitories. The latter will accuse the former of being legalistic, and the former will accuse the latter of being worldly.

I go to a conservative, Reformed seminary, and I've seen the gamut of both groups. For instance, I can have one professor who believes in listening only to classical music because of his theology and another who could be seen at a Brad Paisly concert for the same reason. There are some who smoke, some who think it is a terrible thing to do; some who avoid any hint of vulgarity in speech, some who use it when necessary.

Don't think that I'm saying the two groups are good--I think I definitely need to make a daily conscious effort to shift toward the middle of the road. I'm just saying which soap box you'd more than likely stand upon. Nonetheless...I was wondering who would place themselves in what crowd that are on this forum, if you care to give that information.

I fall more into the liberal, "touch and partake" camp.

I tend to be personally conservative, but generally liberal when it comes to other people's behavior.

While I rarely ever drink, I don't have any issues whatsoever with a person who enjoys alcohol responsibly. I rarely cuss, but it doesn't much bother me to hear others cuss (with the exception of a couple of words...), I personally obhor cigs,(my dad is having major issues because of his smoking habit) I don't go around condemming christians who do smoke(I'm quite aware of how difficult it is to quit).

I think Jon makes a great point on the personal liberty--that which does not cause you to stumble is not a problem. I can listen to secular music with no problem--I very much enjoy alternative and punk music myself--but others could not. If it bothers your conscience, don't do it. My twin brother is also a huge fan of metal music--and believe me, christian metal is hard to come by(decent christian metal, that is)

btw--I'm also a "phlegmatic one"---did you get that from the book Personality Tree? what a great book! All my good traits(strengths...) are 100% phlegmatic, but my bad traits(err, weaknesses... ) are 100% sanguine!

 

[Jon_]

I tend to be personally conservative, but generally liberal when it comes to other people's behavior.

While I rarely ever drink, I don't have any issues whatsoever with a person who enjoys alcohol responsibly. I rarely cuss, but it doesn't much bother me to hear others cuss (with the exception of a couple of words...), I personally obhor cigs,(my dad is having major issues because of his smoking habit) I don't go around condemming christians who do smoke(I'm quite aware of how difficult it is to quit).

I think Jon makes a great point on the personal liberty--that which does not cause you to stumble is not a problem. I can listen to secular music with no problem--I very much enjoy alternative and punk music myself--but others could not. If it bothers your conscience, don't do it. My twin brother is also a huge fan of metal music--and believe me, christian metal is hard to come by(decent christian metal, that is)

btw--I'm also a "phlegmatic one"---did you get that from the book Personality Tree? what a great book! All my good traits(strengths...) are 100% phlegmatic, but my bad traits(err, weaknesses... ) are 100% sanguine!

Boy, you really nailed in Windi. Two-fold even: Personal liberty does have some creedance to our walk; and (decent) Christian metal is hard to come by!

(By the way, I'm a Melancholy/Choleric. Hey, everyone has their guilty pleasures and Tim LaHaye is mine. )

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

I too am a conservative Reformed Christian. I drink alcoholic beverages (Wine, beer and Whiskey) in moderation, because I enjoy them and the Lord has graciously given us the liberty to do so. Wine is declared to be a blessing from God and one of the things listed as judgement from God is the lack of wine.

I despise cigarettes, but smoking them in moderation is not sin. If you do it enough to become addicted then it is sin.


Words are not bad in themselves. There are legitimate times to use a word like that some people fine offensive. Christians don’t have to say “pooh” instead of that other word (just encase writing it here is not allowed). If used in a truly vulgar or pejorative manner toward another than it is most likely sinful.


I also like to dance with my wife and never listen to “Christian” pop music.

Well those are my thoughts on this subject.


Coram Deo,
Kenith

 

[Imblessed]

Boy, you really nailed in Windi. Two-fold even: Personal liberty does have some creedance to our walk; and (decent) Christian metal is hard to come by!

(By the way, I'm a Melancholy/Choleric. Hey, everyone has their guilty pleasures and Tim LaHaye is mine. )

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

<<<<<OFF TOPIC WARNING>>>

Melancholy? I would have never guessed! (insert fake suprised look here...)

I love that book, It's really helped me understand others and why they behave the way they do....as well as myself, of course.

my husband is also Melancholy/choleric (very little choleric, though)....no wonder I like the way you think, Jon!
for those of you wondering what we are talking about, I'm discussing "The Personality Tree, by Florence Littauer, An awesome Christian book about people's personalities and how to discover your type.


BACK ON TOPIC

Looks like everyone here is pretty conservative but accepting... I like that....

 

[Imblessed]

I too am a conservative Reformed Christian. I drink alcoholic beverages (Wine, beer and Whiskey) in moderation, because I enjoy them and the Lord has graciously given us the liberty to do so. Wine is declared to be a blessing from God and one of the things listed as judgement from God is the lack of wine.

Can you tell me where to find this? I've got to show it to my husband, he'd appreciate it! As a wine lover, I'm sure he'd get a kick out of seeing that in the bible......

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

Can you tell me where to find this? I've got to show it to my husband, he'd appreciate it! As a wine lover, I'm sure he'd get a kick out of seeing that in the bible......

We have several instances in Scripture where wine is shown to be a blessing and the lack there of a curse.

Curse:
Thou shalt plant vineyards, and dress them, but shalt neither drink of the wine, nor gather the grapes; for the worms shall eat them. Deut. 28:39

And gladness is taken away, and joy out of the plentiful field; and in the vineyards there shall be no singing, neither shall there be shouting: the treaders shall tread out no wine in their presses; I have made their vintage shouting to cease. Is. 16:10

Blessing:
And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household. Deut. 14:26

And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them. Amos 9:14

I have a great letter written by a preacher friend of mine on this subject. I will post it on another thread. I can also recommend number of books on the subject. One is Drinking With Calvin and Luther: A History of Alcohol in the Church by Jim West, another is God Gave Wine: What the Bible Says About Alcohol by Kenneth Gentry.

God is good to us and gave us wine as a blessing. When we abuse it, it becomes a curse to us. This is true of all God’s blessings.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

 

[Imblessed]

We have several instances in Scripture where wine is shown to be a blessing and the lack there of a curse.

Curse:
Thou shalt plant vineyards, and dress them, but shalt neither drink of the wine, nor gather the grapes; for the worms shall eat them. Deut. 28:39

And gladness is taken away, and joy out of the plentiful field; and in the vineyards there shall be no singing, neither shall there be shouting: the treaders shall tread out no wine in their presses; I have made their vintage shouting to cease. Is. 16:10

Blessing:
And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household. Deut. 14:26

And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them. Amos 9:14

I have a great letter written by a preacher friend of mine on this subject. I will post it on another thread. I can also recommend number of books on the subject. One is Drinking With Calvin and Luther: A History of Alcohol in the Church by Jim West, another is God Gave Wine: What the Bible Says About Alcohol by Kenneth Gentry.

God is good to us and gave us wine as a blessing. When we abuse it, it becomes a curse to us. This is true of all God’s blessings.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

thanks for that! I agree totally and emphatically! Although I do not really like the taste of wine, I see absolutely no reason why alcohol should be totally prohibited. It never once says in the bible that it's bad, only that drunkenness is bad.

anyway, back to the topic on hand..........

 

[Rolf Ernst]

God's #1 purpose for us is twofold: To conform us to the image of Christ, and toward that end we are to strive to do all things to the glory of God. IMO, that cuts out all profane speech and serving of the flesh. I do not believe God forbids us to have wine with dinner; a glass, perhaps, but never to the point of inebreation. A glass of red wine (the only kind I drink) has medicinal effects beneficial to our heart and it is very enjoyable with some meals.

 

[TheologiaCrucis]

I don't think you should dance, smoke, curse, listen to secular music, drink or any of that stuff. I guess I'm just weird like that.

 

[Tertiumquid]

I don't think you should dance, smoke, curse, listen to secular music, drink or any of that stuff. I guess I'm just weird like that.

I'm still trying to figure out the difference between McDonald's food and the negative status given to smoking or drinking.

See the movie "Super-Size Me!"

God Bless,
James Swan

 

[eutychus]

I too am a conservative Reformed Christian. I drink alcoholic beverages (Wine, beer and Whiskey) in moderation, because I enjoy them and the Lord has graciously given us the liberty to do so. Wine is declared to be a blessing from God and one of the things listed as judgement from God is the lack of wine.

I despise cigarettes, but smoking them in moderation is not sin. If you do it enough to become addicted then it is sin.


Words are not bad in themselves. There are legitimate times to use a word like that some people fine offensive. Christians don’t have to say “pooh” instead of that other word (just encase writing it here is not allowed). If used in a truly vulgar or pejorative manner toward another than it is most likely sinful.


I also like to dance with my wife and never listen to “Christian” pop music.

Well those are my thoughts on this subject.


Coram Deo,
Kenith

Well said, and I totally agree.

btw--I'm also a "phlegmatic one"---did you get that from the book Personality Tree? what a great book! All my good traits(strengths...) are 100% phlegmatic, but my bad traits(err, weaknesses... ) are 100% sanguine!

I actually haven't read Personality Tree...just kinda labeled myself that a while back. Good book? Also a well-stated reply, by the way. Good deal.

I'm still trying to figure out the difference between McDonald's food and the negative status given to smoking or drinking.

See the movie "Super-Size Me!"

God Bless,
James Swan

Touchy, touchy. And very true.