• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Calvinist Robots

Status
Not open for further replies.
Originally Posted by Rick Otto
Same way we can inherit a bad debt - legal obligation.​
Mortality, a covered image, relationship problems, confusion over what to do ... aren't a problem ^_^
Mortality isn't evil? It's a curse, ya know...
if you think of it as a curse, you could still file it under 'bad debt'
God cursed the ground, not Adam, btw ...
Thru the faith we can conclude he posessed by his obedience.
Or, he made a choice for God - the image of God was not destroyed in Abel.
Even animals make choices.
It has to do with the quality of choices - "spiritual" choices that require a living spirit, not just a soul.
Paul says body and spirit (soul is the word denoting the person entire).
Obedience, as with Abel, can be a matter of listening to the conscience and choosing thus; the 'interface' you mentioned.
The need to get saved.
And mortality. Symeon (Luke) was righteous and still, he died. Only Christ's Resurrection could release him from mortality.
God has mercy upon whom He will. Romans 9 says it has to do with His being willing to make His power known, to show His longsuffering, etc. and elswhere we see that the drama involved has a 'refining fire' part in "perfecting the saints".
I'm not sure it would be fruitful to try and find a formula to apply to everyone that answers why God chose to have salvific mercy on one & not the other.
But, imo, its more problematic to imply that the "image of God" in man implies a relational problem originating in the 'interrelationship' of the Holy Trinity. And long-suffering; we're a mess and He becomes a helpless infant, the pre-eternal Christ, Who has the angels as His servants, is worshipped by angels is voluntarily mocked and nailed to the cross. "He who hung the earth in the heavens is voluntarily hung on the tree." Thats about as deeply longsuffering as it gets. Nor does it mess up "He saves who He wills". He could have revealed Himself in His glory and blasted everyone to bits, called the angels to do it for Him, and did not. He saves who He wills - but how is that saving by force ? He could save us all - which would be hell for those who hate Him. So, how does our choice contravene His will to save those who choose for Him ?

He saves the most decrepit worthless sorts - when's the last time we sacrificied ourself for a murderer ? Said, "I'll sit in the electric chair for this guy who murdered my family". We most of us are murderers, thieves, scoundrels. What a true scandal, to voluntarily die for those that humans feel justified in hating !


I don't know what you mean by that.
Gotta run for now again. Back in a few hours.
Christ is the image of the Father - what we know best about the Father.
Christ showed mercy -- so how can we think He threatened instead of warning Adam.

I need to leave soon myself ...
thanks, Rick :)
 
Upvote 0

&Abel

Well-Known Member
Aug 16, 2008
7,291
416
43
✟12,921.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
1 Kings 11

Solomon Turns from God

1Now (A)King Solomon loved many foreign women along with the daughter of Pharaoh: Moabite, Ammonite, Edomite, Sidonian, and Hittite women, 2from the nations concerning which the LORD had said to the sons of Israel, "(B)You shall not associate with them, nor shall they associate with you, for they will surely turn your heart away after their gods." Solomon held fast to these in love.
3(C)He had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines, and his wives turned his heart away.
4For when Solomon was old, his wives turned his heart away after other gods; and (D)his heart was not [a]wholly devoted to the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father had been.
5For Solomon went after (E)Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians and after (F)Milcom the detestable idol of the Ammonites.
6Solomon did what was evil in the sight of the LORD, and did not follow the LORD fully, as David his father had done.
7Then Solomon built a high place for (G)Chemosh the detestable idol of Moab, on the mountain which is east of Jerusalem, and for (H)Molech the detestable idol of the sons of Ammon.
8Thus also he did for all his foreign wives, who burned incense and sacrificed to their gods.
9Now (I)the LORD was angry with Solomon (J)because his heart was turned away from the LORD, the God of Israel, (K)who had appeared to him twice,
10and (L)had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods; but he did not observe what the LORD had commanded.
11So the LORD said to Solomon, "Because you have done this, and you have not kept My covenant and My statutes, which I have commanded you, (M)I will surely tear the kingdom from you, and will give it to your servant.
12"Nevertheless I will not do it in your days for the sake of your father David, but I will tear it out of the hand of your son.
13"However, (N)I will not tear away all the kingdom, but (O)I will give one tribe to your son for the sake of My servant David and (P)for the sake of Jerusalem which I have chosen."

God Raises Adversaries


14Then the LORD raised up an adversary to Solomon, Hadad the Edomite; he was of the royal line in Edom. 15For it came about, (Q)when David was in Edom, and Joab the commander of the army had gone up to bury the slain, and had (R)struck down every male in Edom
16(for Joab and all Israel stayed there six months, until he had cut off every male in Edom),
17that Hadad fled to Egypt, he and certain Edomites of his father's servants with him, while Hadad was a young boy.
18They arose from Midian and came to (S)Paran; and they took men with them from Paran and came to Egypt, to Pharaoh king of Egypt, who gave him a house and assigned him food and gave him land.
19Now Hadad found great favor before Pharaoh, so that he gave him in marriage the sister of his own wife, the sister of Tahpenes the queen.
20The sister of Tahpenes bore his son Genubath, whom Tahpenes weaned in Pharaoh's house; and Genubath was in Pharaoh's house among the sons of Pharaoh.
21But (T)when Hadad heard in Egypt that David slept with his fathers and that Joab the commander of the army was dead, Hadad said to Pharaoh, "Send me away, that I may go to my own country."
22Then Pharaoh said to him, "But what have you lacked with me, that behold, you are seeking to go to your own country?" And he answered, "Nothing; nevertheless you must surely let me go."
23(U)God also raised up another adversary to him, Rezon the son of Eliada, who had fled from his lord (V)Hadadezer king of Zobah.
24He gathered men to himself and became leader of a marauding band, (W)after David slew them of Zobah; and they went to Damascus and stayed there, and reigned in Damascus.
25So he was an adversary to Israel all the days of Solomon, along with the evil that Hadad did; and he abhorred Israel and reigned over Aram.
26Then (X)Jeroboam the son of Nebat, an Ephraimite of Zeredah, Solomon's servant, whose mother's name was Zeruah, a widow, (Y)also rebelled against the king.
27Now this was the reason why he rebelled against the king: (Z)Solomon built the Millo, and closed up the breach of the city of his father David.
28Now the man Jeroboam was a valiant warrior, and when (AA)Solomon saw that the young man was industrious, he appointed him over all the forced labor of the house of Joseph.
29It came about at that time, when Jeroboam went out of Jerusalem, that (AB)the prophet Ahijah the Shilonite found him on the road. Now Ahijah had clothed himself with a new cloak; and both of them were alone in the field.
30Then (AC)Ahijah took hold of the new cloak which was on him and tore it into twelve pieces.
31He said to Jeroboam, "Take for yourself ten pieces; for thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, 'Behold, (AD)I will tear the kingdom out of the hand of Solomon and give you ten tribes
32((AE)but he will have one tribe, for the sake of My servant David and for the sake of Jerusalem, (AF)the city which I have chosen from all the tribes of Israel),
33because they have forsaken Me, and (AG)have worshiped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, (AH)Chemosh the god of Moab, and Milcom the god of the sons of Ammon; and they have not walked in My ways, doing what is right in My sight and observing My statutes and My ordinances, as his father David did.
34'Nevertheless I will not take the whole kingdom out of his hand, but I will make him ruler all the days of his life, for the sake of My servant David whom I chose, who observed My commandments and My statutes;
35but (AI)I will take the kingdom from his son's hand and give it to you, even ten tribes.
36'But (AJ)to his son I will give one tribe, (AK)that My servant David may have a lamp always before Me in Jerusalem, (AL)the city where I have chosen for Myself to put My name.
37'I will take you, and you shall reign over whatever you desire, and you shall be king over Israel.
38'Then it will be, that if you listen to all that I command you and walk in My ways, and do what is right in My sight by observing My statutes and My commandments, as My servant David did, then (AM)I will be with you and (AN)build you an enduring house as I built for David, and I will give Israel to you.
39'Thus I will afflict the descendants of David for this, but not always.'"
40Solomon sought therefore to put Jeroboam to death; but Jeroboam arose and fled to Egypt to (AO)Shishak king of Egypt, and he was in Egypt until the death of Solomon.

The Death of Solomon


41(AP)Now the rest of the acts of Solomon and whatever he did, and his wisdom, are they not written in the book of the acts of Solomon? 42Thus (AQ)the time that Solomon reigned in Jerusalem over all Israel was forty years.
43And Solomon (AR)slept with his fathers and was buried in the city of his father David, and his son (AS)Rehoboam reigned in his place.







does that sound like a repentent man? sounds like god went to war with him basically
 
Upvote 0

Tzaousios

Αυγουστινιανικός Χριστιανός
Dec 4, 2008
8,504
609
Comitatus in praesenti
Visit site
✟34,229.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
First, we could be content to posit an unresolved "tension" between the individual and the corporate emphasis. Paul in v. 12 asserts that all people die because they sin on their own account; and in vv. 18-19 he claims that they die because of Adam's sin. Paul does not resolve these two perspectives; and we do wrong to try to force a resolution that Paul himself never made. A systematic theologian may have to find a resolution; but we exegetes need not insist that Paul in this text assumes or teaches one.
(NICNT The Epistle to the Romans, p. 323-325)

I agree that there is an unresolved tension in Romans 5:12-19. I think it is exegetically sound to claim from this passage that we inherit a propensity to sin in our natures from Adam, as well as the consequences of sin, namely death. We sin as a result of this propensity and are guilty for them.

However, I do not think it is sound to declare without a doubt that Adam's guilt for his sin in Eden is imputed to all humans following him. Although most Bibles translate the eph ho pantes hemarton of verse 12 as "because all sinned," I think that many Reformed exegetes who claim imputed guilt are clinging to a concept (not neccessarily the translation) which resulted from Augustine's misrendering of the Old Latin text in quo omnes peccaverunt (in whom [Adam] all sinned). I believe Jerome's Latin version rendered the Greek correctly: eo quod omnes peccaverunt.

The concept of Adam as "Federal Head" comes from Augustine's misrendering of the Old Latin as well as a reliance on the idea that the entire human race was present in Adam's loins at the time he first sinned, just as all the Levites were in Abraham's loins.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rdr Iakovos
Upvote 0

&Abel

Well-Known Member
Aug 16, 2008
7,291
416
43
✟12,921.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I agree that there is an unresolved tension in Romans 5:12-19. I think it is exegetically sound to claim from this passage that we inherit a propensity to sin in our natures from Adam, as well as the consequences of sin, namely death. We sin as a result of this propensity and are guilty for them.

However, I do not think it is sound to declare without a doubt that Adam's guilt for his sin in Eden is imputed to all humans following him. Although most Bibles translate the eph ho pantes hemarton of verse 12 as "because all sinned," I think that many Reformed exegetes who claim imputed guilt are clinging to a concept (not neccessarily the translation) which resulted from Augustine's misrendering of the Old Latin text in quo omnes peccaverunt (in whom [Adam] all sinned). I believe Jerome's Latin version rendered the Greek correctly: eo quod omnes peccaverunt.

The concept of Adam as "Federal Head" comes from Augustine's misrendering of the Old Latin as well as a reliance on the idea that the entire human race was present in Adam's loins at the time he first sinned, just as all the Levites were in Abraham's loins.

even if there is a residue of guilt we certainly aren't responsible for the sins of our ancestors
 
Upvote 0

squint

Well-Known Member
Jul 23, 2007
16,182
903
Mountain Regions
✟20,405.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The Elect still sin. They have been given saving grace, will persevere, and are now able to love God.

1 John 3:
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Sinlessness happens in heaven.

Romans 6:
7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.
8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.




 
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,550
28,531
74
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,300.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
That dude has nothing in me :D

http://www.scripture4all.org/

John 14:30 "Not still much I shall be talking with ye, for is coming the of the world, this, Chief/Ruler and in Me not he is having anything."

Luke 10:18 and He yet said to them "I beheld the Satan as lightning/bright-star/astraphn <796> out-of the heaven falling/pesonta <4098> (5631)" [Revelation 9:1?]

Revelation 9:1 And the fifth messenger trumpets and I saw a Star/astera <792> out of the heaven having fallen/peptwkota <4098> (5761) into the land and was given to him the key of the well of the abyss, [Luke 10:18?]
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Upvote 0

squint

Well-Known Member
Jul 23, 2007
16,182
903
Mountain Regions
✟20,405.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
That dude has nothing in me :D

http://www.scripture4all.org/

John 14:30 "Not still much I shall be talking with ye, for is coming the of the world, this, Chief/Ruler and in Me not he is having anything.

Luke 10:18 and He yet said to them "I beheld the Satan as lightning/bright-star/astraphn <796> out-of the heaven falling/pesonta <4098> (5631) [Revelation 9:1?]

Revelation 9:1 And the fifth messenger trumpets and I saw a Star/astera <792> out of the heaven having fallen/peptwkota <4098> (5761) into the land and was given to him the key of the well of the abyss, [Luke 10:18]


That clip is typical 'freewill' brainwashed nonsense.

Satan was never a holy angel nor is Satan/the Devil ever stated as being a holy angel a single time in scripture.

Satan has no 'freewill.' He was a murderer from the beginning and is the father of all LIES. (John 8:44)

Satan has 'no choice' in resisting The Word. Wherever The Word is sown, THEN and THERE Satan comes to STEAL...

Satan is an automatic THIEF. And Satan is an automatic thief because God made Satan that way. God made ALL THINGS and ALL POWERS.

So, picture for a moment if you will, what SATAN does. His actions are ROBOTIC:

Satan accuses our brethren day and night. He NEVER stops:

Revelation 12:10
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Now, ask yourself what Calvinism does?

Yes indeed. The POSITION accuses our brethren, our FELLOW MAN day and night. The POSITION claims our fellow man to be TOTALLY DEPRAVED.

Does the POSITION link SATAN/THE DEVIL to total depravity? No. It simply blames and accuses mankind even though the DEVIL is linked to ALL SIN in 1 John 3:8. Rather than make that connection the POSITION blames and accuses MANKIND.

So is the Calvinist POSITION robotic? Unquestionably to me. And it is so because of the working of the ultimate EVIL ROBOT...and for that I blame no child of God, my fellow man, the Calvinists, the ones who are led by the ROBOT to blame and accuse our fellow man. THEY will go free of that working soon enough. It is the ROBOT with them who is blaming and accusing our fellow man. They really have nothing to do with that action. I cannot count sins against my fellow man and be IN TRUTH. In this way I find my release from the EVIL ROBOT.

enjoy!

squint

 
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,550
28,531
74
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,300.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
That clip is typical 'freewill' brainwashed nonsense.

Satan was never a holy angel nor is Satan/the Devil ever stated as being a holy angel a single time in scripture.
Yeah. I think Lucifer is "misunderstood" a lot of times. I had a thread on that word from awhile back plus I do not take much stock in the book of Enoch.....:wave:

http://christianforums.com/search.php?searchid=2971411
Showing results of "lucifer" 1 to 22 of 22

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7286527&highlight=lucifer
Isaiah 14:12 Lucifer translation
 
Upvote 0

Rick Otto

The Dude Abides
Nov 19, 2002
34,112
7,406
On The Prairie
✟29,593.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
quote=squint; That clip is typical 'freewill' brainwashed nonsense.
I was OK with it except for the use of the words "free" & "real" - as if predestined love wasn't real love, and as if their will wasn't free enough within God's will.
If the risk is eternal damnation, I don't WANT to be in control of my own destiny, I want God in control of it or I'm doomed for sure. Without God exerting mercy, I'm between the devil & the deep blue sea.


Satan was never a holy angel nor is Satan/the Devil ever stated as being a holy angel a single time in scripture.
Is Lucifer the angel ever identified as being the entity named (or re-named) Satan?


Satan has no 'freewill.' He was a murderer from the beginning and is the father of all LIES. (John 8:44)
No one resists God's will. Like Jesus told Pilate, no one has any more power than God allows. So when men sin & angels rebel, it isn't God willing them to sin, it is God's will to allow them to.
God tolerates sin, He does not "author" or "father" it.


Satan has 'no choice' in resisting The Word.

He chooses to do so. His choice is predestined, but it is still a choice.

Wherever The Word is sown, THEN and THERE Satan comes to STEAL...

Satan is an automatic THIEF. And Satan is an automatic thief because God made Satan that way. God made ALL THINGS and ALL POWERS.
How about "reflexive" instead of "automatic"?
It's a more "organic" term.

So, picture for a moment if you will, what SATAN does. His actions are ROBOTIC:
You mean they are devoid of emotion?
LOL,... I know what you mean. It's like Satan has OCD (obsessive/compulsive disorder)


Satan accuses our brethren day and night. He NEVER stops:

Revelation 12:10
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Now, ask yourself what Calvinism does?
Oh! I know this one!
Reforms the errors in doctrine accrued over the earlier centuries of Christianity!
I love that question, squint.:thumbsup:


Yes indeed. The POSITION accuses our brethren, our FELLOW MAN day and night.
Nahhhhhh, it accuses sinners of sin, that's all.
Are you a 'sin brother'?

The POSITION claims our fellow man to be TOTALLY DEPRAVED.
No more so than the position of scripture does, squint.


Does the POSITION link SATAN/THE DEVIL to total depravity? No.
Sure it does. Somebody probably slipped you the "Abridged For Suckers" edition of "Calvinism Defined For Forum Posters".;)

It simply blames and accuses mankind even though the DEVIL is linked to ALL SIN in 1 John 3:8. Rather than make that connection the POSITION blames and accuses MANKIND.
Man is blameless?

So is the Calvinist POSITION robotic?

I don't think so, but I sure get that a lot.:doh:
Unquestionably to me. And it is so because of the working of the ultimate EVIL ROBOT...and for that I blame no child of God, my fellow man, the Calvinists, the ones who are led by the ROBOT to blame and accuse our fellow man.
That is itself an accusation. I defy that accusation.

THEY will go free of that working soon enough.
Soon enough for who?(LOL)
It is the ROBOT with them who is blaming and accusing our fellow man. They really have nothing to do with that action.
I feel like I'm in a house of mirrors or a Body Snatchers type Sci-Fi movie, squint!
I cannot count sins against my fellow man and be IN TRUTH.
You can't count cards & be in the casino (for very long) either.:sorry:
In this way I find my release from the EVIL ROBOT.

enjoy!
The Gospel gets us thru the night.:thumbsup:
 
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,550
28,531
74
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,300.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Me either on the book of Enoch. :)
Perhaps that is where the Jews and Muslims [and some Christians] got a lot of their views from. :confused:

Titus 1:14 No heeding to Jewish fables/myths and commandments of men, ones turning from the Truth

2 Timothy 4:4 And from indeed the Truth the hearing of them they shall be turning away, upon yet the fables/myths shall be being turned aside to.
 
Upvote 0

&Abel

Well-Known Member
Aug 16, 2008
7,291
416
43
✟12,921.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
The Book of Enoch is quoted in jude and completely syncs with all other scripture and prophesies the coming of Christ many different times

its scripture

you deny the Book of Enoch you are denying words given to you by our god

but I suppose thats between you and him
 
Upvote 0

&Abel

Well-Known Member
Aug 16, 2008
7,291
416
43
✟12,921.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
An other probable Biblical reference can be found in I Peter 3:19,20 to En. 21:6. 1 Enoch is considered as Scripture in the Epistle of Barnabas (16:4)[7] and by many of the early Church Fathers as Athenagoras[8], Clement of Alexandria[9], Irenaeus[10] and Tertullian[11] who wrote c. 200 that the Book of Enoch had been rejected by the Jews because it contained prophecies pertaining to Christ.[12]
However, some later Fathers denied the canonicity of the book and some even considered the letter of Jude uncanonical because it refers to an "apocryphal" work[13]. By the fourth century it was mostly excluded from Christian lists of the Biblical canon, and it was omitted from the canon by most of the Christian church (the Ethiopian Orthodox Church being an exception).
The traditional view of the Ethiopic Orthodox Church, which reckons 1 Enoch as an inspired document, is that the Ethiopic text is the original one, written by Enoch himself. In their view the following opening sentence of Enoch is the first and oldest sentence written in any human language, since Enoch was the first to write letters
 
Upvote 0

&Abel

Well-Known Member
Aug 16, 2008
7,291
416
43
✟12,921.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Classical Rabbinic literature is characterized by near silence concerning Enoch. It seems plausible that Rabbinic polemics against Enochic texts and traditions might have led to the loss of these books to Rabbinic Judaism.[29]
The Book of Enoch plays an important role in the history of the Jewish mysticism: the great scholar Gershom Scholem wrote: "the main subjects of the later Merkabah mysticism already occupy a central position in the older esoteric literature, best represented by the Book of Enoch"[30]. Particular attention is paid to the detailed description of the throne of God included in chapter 14 of 1 Enoch.
For the quotation of the Book of Watchers in the Christian Letter of Jude see section: Canonicity.
There is little doubt that 1 Enoch was influential in molding New Testament doctrines about the Messiah, demonology, the resurrection, and eschatology[2]:19. The Book of Enoch influenced also many Biblical apocrypha, as Jubilees, 2 Baruch, 2 Esdras, Apocalypse of Abraham and obviously 2 Enoch.
The Greek text was known to, and quoted by nearly all the Church Fathers: references can be found in Justin Martyr, Minucius Felix, Irenaeus, Origen, Cyprian, Hippolytus, Commodianus, Lactantius and Cassian[31]:430, although these references come exclusively from the first five chapters of 1 Enoch. After Cassian (died 435 CE), and before the modern "rediscovery", some excerpts are given in the Byzantine Empire by the 8th century monk George Syncellus in his chronography and in the 9th century it is listed as an apocryphon of the New Testament by
 
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,550
28,531
74
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,300.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
The Book of Enoch is quoted in jude and completely syncs with all other scripture and prophesies the coming of Christ many different times

its scripture

you deny the Book of Enoch you are denying words given to you by our god

but I suppose thats between you and him
I am still trying to comprehend Ezekiel and Revelation and that is difficult enough w/o delving into a highly symbolic book like Enoch. :D

Ezekiel 8:3 And He putteth forth a form of a hand and is taking me by a lock of my head, and a spirit she is lifting me between the Land and the Heavens, and she is bringing me Jerusalem-ward in appearance of Elohiym to portal of gate the inner the one facing north-ward which there a seat of a figure/image of the jealously, the provoking jealously.

Reve 17:3 And he carries me away into a wilderness in spirit, and I saw a Woman sitting on a beast, scarlet, being replete of names of blasphemy having heads, seven, and horns, ten.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.