Calvinist Robots

[PETE_]

Yes and no. It was a bitter pill.

However, she is with Jesus and was fortunate to be chosen.

Why do you think she was chosen?

for the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will

 

[Zoness]

If some are predestined for heaven and some for hell, why do we even need the church, the Bible, to study, to try to be righteous? Sounds like your fate is sealed no matter what you do, and even if you are convinced that you truly believe but are not one of the elect you are doomed anyway. You just won't know until it happens.

What ever happened to "that whoever believes in me shall not perish but have everlasting life?"

^ This.

 

[Evergreen48]

No valid response? Why not try to attack my age instead! Great idea.

I'm back with my valid response. Sorry I took so long, but I have a very unreasonable spouse to contend with. For some unknown reason, he thinks he must be fed every day, including Sundays.

Works Based Salvation ladies and gentlemen.

'Accepting' or 'rejecting' something or someone is not a work, (Biblically speaking, when 'works' are mentioned, it refers to the works of Mosaic law.) So how do you figure it is a 'work based salvation'?

All of what man wills is sinful, In fact its like used tampons.

Isa. 64:6 says nothing about man's WILL being sinful. It simply states that God's people had all become as an unclean thing. And this is perfectly clear to the reader without the language usage which would not have been thought of as crude and vulgar at that time, but is not generally accepted as clean and graceful language in today's Christian society.

Your will is enslaved to sin.

You would have to give me specific scriptures that you believe endorse the notion that one's 'WILL is enslaved to sin' before I could respond to this. So I will wait for you to do this, and then maybe we can proceed from there. K?

 

[Evergreen48]

Predestination is in the scripture.

Yes, we see where God has predestined some to fulfill a specific purpose of His.

Salvation is not of the will of man.

It is ours to accept or reject. It is ours to do or die.

Not really, For if one has not been chosen before the foundation of the world one cannot accept salvation..

Chosen before the foundation of which or what world? There are two worlds mentioned in the NT. One 'world' is the 'oikoumene' which referred to 'land, i.e. the [terrene part of the] globe, and the other 'world' is the ' kosmos' which is His 'orderly arrangement, i.e. decoration;' . . . . .

quote=MamaZ]If left up to the will of man no one would be saved for mans will is sinful.,

Some of what man wills is sinful. Not all.

Men are sinful from the very core.. Sin dwells in man. No man ever needs to be trained how to sin. It is just comes natural..

Total depravity? I opine not. For example, even those who apparently have no inclination toward spiritual things, love, protect, and support their families. Is that a good thing, or is that sin?

I still desire to sin. If I did not desire to sin, I would not sin, since there is no one forcing me to sin against my will.

I don't have the desire to sin.. But sometimes out of my mouth comes sin at its best.. Some times I react before I think .. Then immediatly I know I have sinned and go to My Father in prayer and ask Him to forgive me and to cleanse me from this awful unrighteousness..

Matthew 15: 18. " But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:"

Before one can sin there must be the temptation to do so.

James 1:14 "But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own desire, and enticed. 15 . Then when desire hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death."

We do not loose our ability to like green and not like yellow. So a robot is programmed in all things.. We are just chosen and it has been predetermined.

Robots are not programed in all things either. Since when do robots have color preferences?

Exactly our point. Since when do robots have color preferences..Can a robot do anything that has not been programmed into it?

That was a careless answer I gave. (Having a senior moment I guess. ) But unless I am misunderstanding you, you admit to more or less being programmed to do good, in that you were chosen and predestined to do so. But not to being programed to do anything else, like doing bad or wrong things, as you say these things just come natural to you. Well, what I am wondering is, why God programed or predestined you to do good only part of the time, but left you to do what comes naturally the rest of the time?

 

[MamaZ]

Total depravity? I opine not. For example, even those who apparently have no inclination toward spiritual things, love, protect, and support their families. Is that a good thing, or is that sin?

Evil men can do good things.
Does not mean they are righteous. For it is not our works that save us. A man may love and protect their families and lust after other women seceretly in their own heart.

Matthew 15: 18. " But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:"

My point exactly.. Out of the heart of sinful men come sinful desires. Sin dwells in the very being of human beings. One doing good things does not negate the bad things he does..

Before one can sin there must be the temptation to do so.

James 1:14 "But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own desire, and enticed. 15 . Then when desire hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death."

Yes and this sin comes from His own desire.. Not any outside force but the sin that dwells with in every man entices him.

That was a careless answer I gave. (Having a senior moment I guess. ) But unless I am misunderstanding you, you admit to more or less being programmed to do good, in that you were chosen and predestined to do so. But not to being programed to do anything else, like doing bad or wrong things, as you say these things just come natural to you. Well, what I am wondering is, why God programed or predestined you to do good only part of the time, but left you to do what comes naturally the rest of the time?

Doing good does not negate a sinful man. It shows that by nature he is a sinful man. This is why one MUST be born again of the Spirit of God and crucify their flesh and walk after the Spirit. Now one must have the Spirit of God in them in order to have the power to be an overcomer.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Without a TARDIS????? Will wonders never cease.

Didn't you know The Doctor handles the time at CF?

 

[MamaZ]

Come on!

However, if you insist I will repeat my question.

What makes you think your understanding of scripture is infallible?

Infallable? No. For I am in constant learning and coming to know my Father in a greater way. This is why I study His word and apply His word and always in the word so that I may know Him. So I may have an answer to all who ask. It is my Love for Him that leads me to His scripture and to prove all things.

 

[ArcticFox]

Can someone please put to rest the notion that predestination turns humans into robots?

I dunno Rick, after I became a Calvinist, I noticed that my joints stiffened, I started consuming unusual amounts of oil, and instead of going to bed at night, I just plugged myself in.

 

[MamaZ]

I dunno Rick, after I became a Calvinist, I noticed that my joints stiffened, I started consuming unusual amounts of oil, and instead of going to bed at night, I just plugged myself in.

 

[Evergreen48]

Salvation is not of the will of man.

It is ours to accept or reject. It is ours to do or die.

Not really, For if one has not been chosen before the foundation of the world one cannot accept salvation..

Chosen before the foundation of which or what world? There are two worlds mentioned in the NT. One 'world' is the 'oikoumene' which referred to 'land, i.e. the [terrene part of the] globe, and the other 'world' is the ' kosmos' which is His 'orderly arrangement, i.e. decoration;' . . . . .

You did not answer my question.

Ephesians 1:3. " Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:"

Which world: the 'oikoumene' or the 'kosmos' ?

Men are sinful from the very core.. No man ever needs to be trained how to sin. It is just comes natural..

Total depravity? I opine not. For example, even those who apparently have no inclination toward spiritual things, love, protect, and support their families. Is that a good thing, or is that sin?

Evil men can do good things.

Not if they are, as you say, 'Totally depraved'.

Does not mean they are righteous. For it is not our works that save us. A man may love and protect their families and lust after other women seceretly in their own heart.

It would mean that they are partly 'righteous' and partly 'unrighteous'. Or that they are capable of doing at least some righteous things, and that they are not TOTALLY ruined. Agree?

I still desire to sin. If I did not desire to sin, I would not sin, since there is no one forcing me to sin against my will.

I don't have the desire to sin.. But sometimes out of my mouth comes sin at its best.. Some times I react before I think .. Then immediatly I know I have sinned and go to My Father in prayer and ask Him to forgive me and to cleanse me from this awful unrighteousness..

Matthew 15: 18. " But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:"

Before one can sin there must be the temptation to do so.

James 1:14 "But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own desire, and enticed. 15 . Then when desire hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death."

Yes and this sin comes from His own desire.. Not any outside force but the sin that dwells with in every man entices him.

But I thought you said you do not have the desire to sin.

We do not loose our ability to like green and not like yellow. So a robot is programmed in all things.. We are just chosen and it has been predetermined.

Robots are not programed in all things either. Since when do robots have color preferences?

Exactly our point. Since when do robots have color preferences..Can a robot do anything that has not been programmed into it?

That was a careless answer I gave. (Having a senior moment I guess.(grin) ) But unless I am misunderstanding you, you admit to more or less being programmed to do good, in that you were chosen and predestined to do so. But not to being programed to do anything else, like doing bad or wrong things, as you say these things just come natural to you. Well, what I am wondering is, why God programed or predestined you to do good only part of the time, but left you to do what comes naturally the rest of the time?

Doing good does not negate a sinful man. It shows that by nature he is a sinful man.

How does 'doing good' show that one is a sinful person by nature?

This is why one MUST be born again of the Spirit of God and crucify their flesh and walk after the Spirit. Now one must have the Spirit of God in them in order to have the power to be an overcomer.

Is the flesh born again, or does a new man actually come into existence when someone is, as you say, 'born again'?

I know where Jesus told Nicodemus that he and his constituents [the Jews] must be born again/born from above in order to see the kingdom of God, and also that they must be born of water and of the Spirit to enter into the kingdom of God. That discourse of Jesus may be found in the 3rd chapter of the book of John. But in all of this whole discourse Jesus never told HOW one can go about getting born again/born from above. So maybe you could give some instruction on how to get born again/born from above?

 

[PETE_]

What motive does carnal man have for doing good?

Doing good for the wrong motive is not a righteous act.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

What motive does carnal man have for doing good?

Doing good for the wrong motive is not a righteous act.

What we do must be done with Love or it is empty.

I think scripture says that somewhere.

 

[Albion]

Can someone please put to rest the notion that predestination turns humans into robots?

Probably not. Even though it's completely untrue to say that this is what Calvinism amounts to or teaches, the word is just too juicy a slur for those who don't understand Calvinism (or don't want to bother to understand it) to give up.

 

[Albion]

What motive does carnal man have for doing good?

Doing good for the wrong motive is not a righteous act.

It is not meritorious in a theological sense, but then again none of our actions are meritorious in the sense of contributing to putting away God's righteous judgment against us.

But the act is good in itself.

If an atheist saves someone from being robbed or beaten, he still is doing a good deed in the way that the Good Samaritan in Scripture was recognized as having done an act of mercy that God approved of.

 

[Evergreen48]

What motive does carnal man have for doing good?

Doing good for the wrong motive is not a righteous act.

It is impossible to do good for the wrong motive. That's almost an oxymoron. I think.

 

[Evergreen48]

If an atheist saves someone from being robbed or beaten, he still is doing a good deed in the way that the Good Samaritan in Scripture was recognized as having done an act of mercy that God approved of.

God sometimes approves of the acts of an atheist? So where is the reward for the good acts of the atheist?

 

[PETE_]

Say one is helping the poor so that they will look generous to their peers.

Volunteering at church to appear more godly

The pharasees were pretty good at it, just remember the account of the two men praying in the temple

 

[Evergreen48]

Probably not. Even though it's completely untrue to say that this is what Calvinism amounts to or teaches, the word is just too juicy a slur for those who don't understand Calvinism (or don't want to bother to understand it) to give up.

I understand Calvinism perfectly. I used to be a Calvinist. And I, for one, am not making a 'juicy slur' when I say that Calvinism amounts to or teaches 'Roboticism' (New word. Look for it in the new revised edition of Webster's. )

 

[Evergreen48]

Say one is helping the poor so that they will look generous to their peers.

Volunteering at church to appear more godly

The pharasees were pretty good at it, just remember the account of the two men praying in the temple

Good for the recipients of the act - but nothing good on the part of the doer.
Jesus said 'they have their reward.' I believe the puffed up feeling they derive from looking like a good and generous person to others is their reward, and the only reward they will ever get for their deeds.

 

[MamaZ]

How are we robots?