Calvinist Robots

[MamaZ]

Your belief in predestination DOES declare that we are robots, no matter how much you deny it.
NO. You are still divided against yourself.

False. Predstination declares God is soveign over all..

 

[MamaZ]

Not always. "From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him." Who influenced their choice to not follow Jesus any longer?

If they went out from us they were really not of us or they would not have gone out from us is what scripture teaches us. So if they followed Him no more it was because they could not believe what it was He was saying to them. But to those whom Jesus chose all except for Judas stayed with Him.

 

[SummaScriptura]

I know. I'm just having fun with your posts.

Augustine has written some things which are often overlooked by his Calvinist supporters.


Have you read this from 427 AD?(He died in 430, I believe, so this is late in his life)

Sorry about all the underscores, I didn't put them there.

Chapter 1 [I.]— The Occasion and Argument of This Work.

With reference to those persons who so preach and defend man's free will, as boldly to deny, and endeavour to do away with, the grace of God which calls us to Him, and delivers us from our evil deserts, and by which we obtain the good deserts which lead to everlasting life: we have already said a good deal in discussion, and committed it to writing, so far as the Lord has vouchsafed to enable us. But since there are some persons who so defend God's grace as to deny man's free will, or who suppose that free will is denied when grace is defended, I have determined to write somewhat on this point to your Love, my brother Valentinus, and the rest of you, who are serving God together under the impulse of a mutual love.

Chapter 2 [II.]— He Proves the Existence of Free Will in Man from the Precepts Addressed to Him by God.

Now He has revealed to us, through His Holy Scriptures, that there is in a man a free choice of will. But how He has revealed this I do not recount in human language, but in divine. There is, to begin with, the fact that God's precepts themselves would be of no use to a man unless he had free choice of will, so that by performing them he might obtain the promised rewards.

Chapter 4.— The Divine Commands Which are Most Suited to the Will Itself Illustrate Its Freedom.

What is the import of the fact that in so many passages God requires all His commandments to be kept and fulfilled? How does He make this requisition, if there is no free will? What means the happy man, of whom the Psalmist says that his will has been the law of the Lord? Does he not clearly enough show that a man by his own will takes his stand in the law of God?

Chapter 31 [XV.]— Free Will Has Its Function in the Heart's Conversion; But Grace Too Has Its.

Lest, however, it should be thought that men themselves in this matter do nothing by free will, it is said in the Psalm, Harden not your hearts; and in Ezekiel himself, Cast away from you all your transgressions, which you have impiously committed against me; and make you a new heart and a new spirit; and keep all my commandments. For why will you die, O house of Israel, says the Lord? for I have no pleasure in the death of him that dies, says the Lord God: and turn ye, and live. Ezekiel 18:31-32 We should remember that it is He who says, Turn ye and live, to whom it is said in prayer, Turn us again, O God. We should remember that He says, Cast away from you all your transgressions, when it is even He who justifies the ungodly. We should remember that He says, Make you a new heart and a new spirit, who also promises, I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit will I put within you. Ezekiel 36:26 How is it, then, that He who says, Make you, also says, I will give you? Why does He command, if He is to give? Why does He give if man is to make, except it be that He gives what He commands when He helps him to obey whom He commands? There is, however, always within us a free will,— but it is not always good; for it is either free from righteousness when it serves sin,— and then it is evil,— or else it is free from sin when it serves righteousness,— and then it is good. But the grace of God is always good; and by it it comes to pass that a man is of a good will, though he was before of an evil one. By it also it comes to pass that the very good will, which has now begun to be, is enlarged, and made so great that it is able to fulfil the divine commandments which it shall wish, when it shall once firmly and perfectly wish. This is the purport of what the Scripture says: If you will, you shall keep the commandments; Sirach 15:15 so that the man who wills but is not able knows that he does not yet fully will, and prays that he may have so great a will that it may suffice for keeping the commandments. And thus, indeed, he receives assistance to perform what he is commanded.

Are you saying Calvin did not allow for free will? Doesn't Calvin teach the will is freed in Christ? Nothing in the above august comments clearly says he allows for free will in the pagan. I think Auggie was confused about what makes a person a Christian in God's sight. Therefore it becomes difficult to sort it all out. That's why I toss all of Auggie's bathwater out, and I think there wasn't any baby in it. Suffice it to say, Calvin was able to see robots in Auggie's writings, and in doing so I think he fairly interprets Auggie. I don't think Calvin failed to read Auggie thoroughly enough.

 

[chestertonrules]

Programmed and predetermined are two different words and have two different meanings. ?

What's the difference?

 

[chestertonrules]

Why?
Nothing has changed except the label.

Of course it has.

I am either in control of my life or not.

If I choose to submit to God's will, I can cooperate with his grace and be saved.

If I am a robot, I may or may not have that opportunity.

 

[Rick Otto]

Then how does Calvin in your opinion, explain why God sends robots to hell?

 

[chestertonrules]

Are you saying Calvin did not allow for free will? Doesn't Calvin teach the will is freed in Christ? Nothing in the above august comments clearly says he allows for free will in the pagan. I think Auggie was confused about what makes a person a Christian in God's sight. Therefore it becomes difficult to sort it all out. That's why I toss all of Auggie's bathwater out, and I think there wasn't any baby in it. Suffice it to say, Calvin was able to see robots in Auggie's writings, and in doing so I think he fairly interprets Auggie. I don't think Calvin failed to read Auggie thoroughly enough.

I think Calvin treated Augustine just as he treated scripture.

He develped an idea, then went looking for supporting evidence.

In the process, he ignored or distorted all contradictory evidence.

 

[Rick Otto]

Of course it has.

I am either in control of my life or not.

If I choose to submit to God's will, I can cooperate with his grace and be saved.

If I am a robot, I may or may not have that opportunity.

If God is your co-pilot you need to switch seats.
I think you control is a matter of degree.
It doesn't sound like you've earned a degree.

 

[chestertonrules]

Then how does Calvin in your opinion, explain why God sends robots to hell?

My understanding, correct me if I am wrong.

All men are programmed for sin and therefore Hell according to Calvin.

God picks some lucky underserving souls to shed his grace upon.

 

[chestertonrules]

If God is your co-pilot you need to switch seats.

Did you miss this line?

If I choose to submit to God's will, I can cooperate with his grace and be saved.

 

[Evergreen48]

Predestination is in the scripture.

Yes, we see where God has predestined some to fulfill a specific purpose of His.

Salvation is not of the will of man.

It is ours to accept or reject. It is ours to do or die.

If left up to the will of man no one would be saved for mans will is sinful.,

Some of what man wills is sinful. Not all.

When we are predestined to salvation through the grace and mercy of God we do not loose our ability to sin just our desire to sin.

I still desire to sin. If I did not desire to sin, I would not sin, since there is no one forcing me to sin against my will.

We do not loose our ability to like green and not like yellow. So a robot is programmed in all things.. We are just chosen and it has been predetermined.

Robots are not programed in all things either. Since when do robots have color preferences?

 

[JacobHall86]

My understanding, correct me if I am wrong.

All men are programmed for sin and therefore Hell according to Calvin.

God picks some lucky underserving souls to shed his grace upon.

Where does Calvin say that?

BTW, your posts make you look like an open theist.

 

[Evergreen48]

We already know where this is going so let's spare ourselves the drill.

If my observation of your position is not true, by all means clarify, but in your understanding Jesus was tempted in the desert NOT by the DEVIL but by His Own Mind.

This thread is not the place or the time to do this. I gave you the opportunity to hear me out on this subject in another thread, but you did not bother.

 

[chestertonrules]

Where does Calvin say that

That is my understanding. Please correct it if it is not accurate.

BTW, your posts make you look like an open theist.[/quote





Perhaps to a person unfamiliar with scripture or theology that may be true.

 

[MamaZ]

these questions I've had about calvanism have never been answered to my satisfaction:

1) Why should anyone try and lead a holy life? the predestined are predestined. they either a) will lead a holy life because they have no choice (robotism) or b) will do so by their choice, despite the logical incongruity of having the choice in the first place. Which is it?

Those whom are born again have the very desire in them to walk in the image of Christ. Those who are not are the ones who try and live a holy life. We see from scripture that it is God who causes us to walk in His statutes, It is His power and love within us that pushes us onward to the high calling of Christ. Being a Christian is more than just being saved. It is alife time relationship with God the Father through Christ the Lord through the Power of the Holy Spirit. A daily washing of the water of the Word. It is Christ in us that completes what He started in us. This is where the rewards are mentioned in scripture..

2) why "go ye forth and make disciples of all nations" if what you do is of absolutely no effect? The people who are predestined are already going, regardless of what you say or do.

Yes they are going because God has promised them eternal life but our very lives in Christ is to be witnesses unto Him. We are to testify of Him wherever we go. How do we know that one act of kindness is what God uses to start the opening process of healing for even one person? This is what salvation is all about. Not getting to heaven. But to be witnesses unto the one who has called us.

3) what does "whosoever will may" mean to you?
IT means that in Christ in does not matter black or white or greek or jew or slave or free.. Whosoever no matter what race creed or ethnic back ground you are from. For the OT covenant was for the Jews only.

4) The passage in which Jesus mourns over the unbelief of the Israelites, longing to gather them as a mother hen does her chicks... how does that describe predestination, when he is mourning those who WOULD NOT come?

Because God has shut them up in disbelief so that gentiles may enter in also. THe Isrealites Were at one time His chosen people.. Jesus was told about to all Isreal and they believed that He was going to Come but when He did come they did not even know Him.

5) Why does God hold a goat responsible for being a goat, when he made him a goat?

He may have made Him a goat but He didn;t make him eat the neighbors garbage.. If a man makes an airplane and this airplane does not fly as it should even though this man has made this airplane they do not choose it to fly people in it. This plane is made just like all the others but for some reason is just does not fly properly.. Do we blame you for not allowing this plane to be flown just because you made this plane as a plane?
there is more, but SOME logical answer to these questions would be a good start.

Why does the truth of God have to be based on Logic of man?

 

[JacobHall86]

It is ours to accept or reject. It is ours to do or die.

Works Based Salvation ladies and gentlemen.

Some of what man wills is sinful. Not all.

All of what man wills is sinful, In fact its like used tampons.

I still desire to sin. If I did not desire to sin, I would not sin, since there is no one forcing me to sin against my will.

Your will is enslaved to sin.

Robots are not programed in all things either. Since when do robots have color preferences?

Thats a dumb argument.

 

[chestertonrules]

Why does the truth of God have to be based on Logic of man?

There is only one Truth.

You are human. Do you claim to speak infallibly the truth of God?

Who gave you that authority?

 

[Evergreen48]

If they went out from us they were really not of us or they would not have gone out from us is what scripture teaches us. So if they followed Him no more it was because they could not believe what it was He was saying to them. But to those whom Jesus chose all except for Judas stayed with Him.

NO. They followed him no more because Jesus made it plain to them that it was not physical, but Spiritual food, He was offering them. This is why many of them sought Him out on this particular occasion. They had witnessed the miracle of the loaves and the fishes, and thought that such a man as could do something like this would be a wonderful ruler for them. Why, if Jesus had not hidden Himself from them, they would have taken him by force and made Him their ruler.

 

[MamaZ]

What's the difference?

Predetermed is that this will happen. Programmed is we have no voice of our own or moves of our own or mind of our own but what is programmed in us. We even those of us in Christ still have a voice of our own. We still can move on our own, God is not up there pushing buttons for me to like brown or green. He does not push a button to have me speak. He just predtermined that I was His before I was born..

 

[chestertonrules]

NO. They followed him no more because Jesus made it plain to them that it was not physical, but Spiritual food, He was offering them. This is why many of them sought Him out on this particular occasion. They had witnessed the miracle of the loaves and the fishes, and thought that such a man as could do something like this would be a wonderful ruler for them. Why, if Jesus had not hidden Himself from them, they would have taken him by force and made Him their ruler.

I believe that they left because they could not understand the eucharistic message Jesus was giving them.

They didn't understand how they could eat his flesh and drink his blood.

If it was merely metaphorical, it would not have been a hard teaching.