Calvinist Robots

&Abel · Mar 3, 2009

Rick Otto said:
Perhaps. I remember something like 'he was fly until iniquity was found in him"... I don't know how it got there.
We talk about accidents, but if your an omniscient omnipotent Creator, you don't have accidents.

You need to see things in a more fundamental perspective; rather than creation existing to serve me, we are part of creation that exists to serve God.

Well, He apparently doesn't want gods either, and you have His creatures deciding their own destiny with the spiritualy dead brains they inherited from Adam.

Adam did not spiritually die

the reason god said "you shall die on this day" is because in heaven 1 day is a 1000 years on earth

Adam died when he was 930

Adam and Eve both repented(which required spiritual aliveness )

&Abel · Mar 3, 2009

Had Adam not repented judgment would have been right there and then

_visionary_ · Mar 3, 2009

To my mind a god that initiates mankind knowing everything they will ever do is the same as absolute predestination.

Rick Otto · Mar 3, 2009

quote=chestertonrules; The bible is clear.

Yes, & so is your folly, Chez.

Your words are a failed attempt to change the meaning of the bible.

That lie is an expression of malice & a failed attempt to defend your willfull ignorance. You aren't much fun. Having a bad day?

It is so sad that you will go to such desperate lengths to prove that God doesn't love every man.

Your false pity is camoflage for your false pride.
Your error is starkly obvious.
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

What drives you? It is not scripture, clearly.

Nothing personal of course, but love of the light leads me to confront your arrogant ignorance & malicious accusations against both God & His saints.

&Abel · Mar 3, 2009

your trying way too hard to seem intelligent and hip Rick

normally I think its an endearing quality but right now your coming off as pompous

_visionary_ · Mar 3, 2009

&Abel said:
Had Adam not repented judgment would have been right there and then

Don't you think its a bit morally ambigious to create something you know indefinately is going to sin again and again and again?

chestertonrules · Mar 3, 2009

Rick Otto said:
Yes, & so is your folly, Chez.

That lie is an expression of malice & a failed attempt to defend your willfull ignorance. You aren't much fun. Having a bad day?

Your false pity is camoflage for your false pride.
Your error is starkly obvious.
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Nothing personal of course, but love of the light leads me to confront your arrogant ignorance & malicious accusations against both God & His saints.

There is no evidence that Esau was condemned.

In fact, after losing his inheritance, he became a rich and apparently Godly man.

Both Paul and Malachi were speaking of our positions in life, not heaven and hell.

In Hebrew, hate doesn't mean the same thing that it does in english.

Regardless, this has nothing to do with the passage in question, which you feebly tried to conform to your dogma.

chestertonrules · Mar 3, 2009

_visionary_ said:
Don't you think its a bit morally ambigious to create something you know indefinately is going to sin again and again and again?

Is there a different way to create a free creature?

Rick Otto · Mar 3, 2009

quote=&Abel; Adam did not spiritually die

Yes he did.
Go clean your room & do the dishes.

the reason god said "you shall die on this day" is because in heaven 1 day is a 1000 years on earth

You make stuff up as you go along. It's entertaining... for the first two minutes.

Adam died when he was 930

I wish I could get that kinda mileage.

Adam and Eve both repented(which required spiritual aliveness )

Whatever. Put your tongue back in your mouth & try to pay attention.

DD2008 · Mar 3, 2009

_visionary_ said:
Don't you think its a bit morally ambigious to create something you know indefinately is going to sin again and again and again?

How do you have any idea what purpose it's going to serve?

Only one with forknowledge actually knows what he is doing. Everyone else is groping in the dark.

&Abel · Mar 3, 2009

_visionary_ said:
Don't you think its a bit morally ambigious to create something you know indefinately is going to sin again and again and again?

well its not indefinite

gods primary goal was a being that could freely choose, next was that it would follow his lead

like I said before, only in freewill is god able to transfer responsibility to our shoulders

our god is a god of perfect justice and had he intended us to sin he would be responsible

ask him when you face him and he'll tell you the same

Rick Otto · Mar 3, 2009

quote=chestertonrules; There is no evidence that Esau was condemned.

Quit weaseling. Hated, Chez,... he was hated by the God you insist loves every single individual man. Coca Cola Theology.

In fact, after losing his inheritance, he became a rich and apparently Godly man.

Doesn't change the fact. You're lookin' heavy here.

Both Paul and Malachi were speaking of our positions in life, not heaven and hell.

LOL. You're cute when you're wiggln' off a hook, tryin' to look like you're not caught.

In Hebrew, hate doesn't mean the same thing that it does in english.

ROFL.

Regardless, this has nothing to do with the passage in question, which you feebly tried to conform to your dogma.[/quote]

_visionary_ · Mar 3, 2009

DD2008 said:
How do you have any idea what purpose it's going to serve?

Do I have any idea what purpose God knowing everything serves? No, not really other than perhaps his own. I don't know. But I'm not talking about the purpose I'm talking about the means which is very clear. God knows everything and yet there is evil.

EDIT: And so the free will movement demonizes God for being omnipotent why don't we demonize him for being omnscient and omnipresent too?

&Abel · Mar 3, 2009

Isaiah 55

Invitation to the Thirsty

1 "Come, all you who are thirsty,
come to the waters;
and you who have no money,
come, buy and eat!
Come, buy wine and milk
without money and without cost. 2 Why spend money on what is not bread,
and your labor on what does not satisfy?
Listen, listen to me, and eat what is good,
and your soul will delight in the richest of fare.
3 Give ear and come to me;
hear me, that your soul may live.
I will make an everlasting covenant with you,
my faithful love promised to David.
4 See, I have made him a witness to the peoples,
a leader and commander of the peoples.
5 Surely you will summon nations you know not,
and nations that do not know you will hasten to you,
because of the LORD your God,
the Holy One of Israel,
for he has endowed you with splendor."
6 Seek the LORD while he may be found;
call on him while he is near.
7 Let the wicked forsake his way
and the evil man his thoughts.
Let him turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on him,
and to our God, for he will freely pardon.
8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,"
declares the LORD.
9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.
10 As the rain and the snow
come down from heaven,
and do not return to it
without watering the earth
and making it bud and flourish,
so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,
11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
12 You will go out in joy
and be led forth in peace;
the mountains and hills
will burst into song before you,
and all the trees of the field
will clap their hands.
13 Instead of the thornbush will grow the pine tree,
and instead of briers the myrtle will grow.
This will be for the LORD's renown,
for an everlasting sign,
which will not be destroyed."

&Abel · Mar 3, 2009

Romans 11

16If the (AA)first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17But if some of the (AB)branches were broken off, and (AC)you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that (AD)it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19(AE)You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you (AF)stand by your faith (AG)Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's (AH)kindness, (AI)if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also (AJ)will be cut off.
23And they also, (AK)if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

_visionary_ · Mar 3, 2009

&Abel said:
well its not indefinite

For me it is.

&Abel said:
gods primary goal was a being that could freely choose, next was that it would follow his lead

Really? Are we free from a God that could've created us genetically/environmentally different? No. Are we free from a God that could've created us not knowing anything of our destiny? No. Are we free? No.

edit: are we free from a God that is all around us even when we are in pain? No.

&Abel said:
like I said before, only in freewill is god able to transfer responsibility to our shoulders

And like I say, if we transfer responsibility to humans because of freewill (converse to omnipotency) we might as well transfer it because of a God that lacks all omnipresence and omniscience.

&Abel said:
our god is a god of perfect justice and had he intended us to sin he would be responsible

Creating a being that you know is going to sin is intending it to sin.

&Abel · Mar 3, 2009

so does the calvinist hold to the belief that god rips branches off his tree and then sticks them back on for fun?

or is it due to the actions of the men themselves?

I think the answer is obvious

&Abel · Mar 3, 2009

_visionary_ said:
For me it is.

Really? Are we free from a God that could've created us genetically/environmentally different? No. Are we free from a God that could've created us not knowing anything of our destiny? No. Are we free? No.

edit: are we free from a God that is all around us even when we are in pain? No.

And like I say, if we transfer responsibility to humans because of freewill (converse to omnipotency) we might as well transfer it because of a God that lacks all omnipresence and omniscience.

Creating a being that you know is going to sin is intending it to sin.

no its not

to create a freewill being means that you do not have absolute control over its actions(though he obviously can influence our will)

he knows what we will do and yet did not want us to take the route we did

squint · Mar 3, 2009

chestertonrules said:
squint said:

If you don't misrepresent the views of others, you won't need to worry about such comments. I assumed your comments were made out of ignorance.

Try harder.

FYI:

1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46

1998 This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God's gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.47

2002 God's free initiative demands man's free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. The soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness that only he can satisfy. The promises of "eternal life" respond, beyond all hope, to this desire:

Click to expand...

"We believe that the Church is necessary for salvation, because Christ, who is the sole mediator and way of salvation, renders Himself present for us in His body which is the Church.[33] But the divine design of salvation embraces all men, and those who without fault on their part do not know the Gospel of Christ and His Church, but seek God sincerely, and under the influence of grace endeavor to do His will as recognized through the promptings of their conscience, they, in a number known only to God, can obtain salvation."

http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_pa06cr.htm

By all means PLEASE stop misrepresenting the 'organization' you PURPORT to belong to and KNOW....

And do NOT call me a liar if the CHARGES are not TRUE.

I know my RCC dogma fairly well.

enjoy!

squint

_visionary_ · Mar 3, 2009

&Abel said:
no its not

Yes it is in science, maths, law, logic and politics. If I employ someone that has threatened to kill my entire family as a cleaner in my house I full intended that sin. If I created that individual knowing he would do that I fully intedend that sin. To create, allow, permit, intend...

&Abel said:
to create a freewill being means that you do not have absolute control over its actions(though he obviously can influence our will)

free will vs. predestination has some shine to it, becase it raises a point of morallity... apply that kind of morality to omniscience and omnipresence and we have a problem.

&Abel said:
he knows what we will do and yet did not want us to take the route we did

And yet he created us. So he must've wanted us to do whatever we did. Its logically incoherant to see it any other way unless you declare moral bankrupsy. "I don't know if we have free will or not or if God knows everything or created everything."

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