Calvinist Robots

chestertonrules · Feb 25, 2009

Rick Otto said:
Yeah.
Another word to explain it would be "stillborn".
Being "alive" is another relative state.
We were "alive" (in a sense)in Adam when he sinned.

And then what happened?

For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
1Cor. 15:21-22

Therefore just as one mans trespass led to condemnation for all, so one mans act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18

chestertonrules · Feb 25, 2009

PETE_ said:
We have no authority or power to Sentence anyone to hell. God, on the other hand, has the authority and power and does just that.

So God renders judgment.

Does the bible tell us what his criteria is?

LittleLambofJesus · Feb 25, 2009

chestertonrules said:
So God renders judgment.

Does the bible tell us what his criteria is?

What do you think His criteria will be?

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7131625&page=3

2 Timothy 4:1 Thru-witnessing then I, before the God and the Lord Jesus Christ, of the one-being-about/mellontoV <3195> (5723) to be judging/krinein <2919> (5721) living and dead, according as the appearance/manifestation/epifaneian <2015> of Him and the Kingdom of Him

Reve 14:7 saying in great sound "be being fearful! of the God, and be Ye giving! to Him glory, that came/hlqen <2064> (5627) the Hour of His judging/krisewV <2920> and worship Ye! to the One-making the heaven and the land and sea and springs of waters."

chestertonrules · Feb 25, 2009

LittleLambofJesus said:
What do you think His criteria will be?

atthew 25:31-46 (New International Version)

The Sheep and the Goats

31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' 46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

LittleLambofJesus · Feb 25, 2009

atthew 25:31-46 (New International Version)

The Sheep and the Goats

Matt 13:30 "Suffer-ye! to be together-growing both until the Harvest/qerismou <2326>.
And in the Time of the Harvest/qerismou <2326> I shall be declaring to the Harvesters/qeristaiV <2327> 'together-collect the darnel/zizania <2215........[Reve 14:15]

Reve 14:15 And another Messenger came out out of the Sanctuary crying out in a voice great to the one sitting upon the cloud "send! the sickle of thee and reap! that came the Hour to reap, that is dried the harvest of the land. [Joel 3:13/Matt 13:30]

Epiphoskei · Feb 25, 2009

chestertonrules said:
Less critical and less compassionate.

After all, you can't help save their soul.

Summa Theologica, 1.28.8
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1023.htm#article8

On the contrary, It is said that "Isaac besought the Lord for his wife because she was barren; and He heard him and made Rebecca to conceive" (Genesis 25:21). But from that conception Jacob was born, and he was predestined. Now his predestination would not have happened if he had never been born. Therefore predestination can be furthered by the prayers of the saints.

chestertonrules said:
And then what happened?

For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
1Cor. 15:21-22

Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18

I'm pretty sure that universalism isn't O.K. in Catholic theology. You've just ripped these verses out of context, ignoring your church's teaching on the matter, and extended justification to all. So it turns out Sola Fide isn't wrong because you need works in addition to faith, it's wrong because apparently you don't even need faith. Interesting.

chestertonrules · Feb 25, 2009

Epiphoskei said:
Summa Theologica, 1.28.8
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1023.htm#article8

I'm pretty sure that universalism isn't O.K. in Catholic theology. You've just extended justification to all. So it turns out Sola Fide isn't wrong because you need something more than works, it's wrong because apparently you don't even need faith. Interesting.

I completely agree with your quote from new advent. Not sure what your point is. Clearly, our destination is impacted by the prayers of the saints, among other things.

I don't support universalism.

I quoted scripture. This scripture directly contradicted Pete's point.

Comment?

Thekla · Feb 25, 2009

so, if all doesn't mean all (ie is hyperbolic or vernacular), then not all die in Adam ?
are these the elect ?

Epiphoskei · Feb 25, 2009

chestertonrules said:
I completely agree with your quote from new advent. Not sure what your point is. Clearly, out destination is impacted by the prayers of the saints, among other things.

No, our predestination is furthered by the prayers of the saints. Predestination is compatibalistic. Do not make claims about our beliefs that cannot be reconciled with anything our theologians actually write.

chestertonrules said:
I don't support universalism.

I quoted scripture. This scripture directly contradicted Pete's point.

Comment?

These verses have been gone over by countless theologians, and there are numerous interpretations we could go over, but for the purposes of this discussion, unless you believe that these verses, properly interpreted, mean only Christians are made alive, you are promoting universalism. The context cannot allow for "alive" to mean anything less than salvation. To extend Romans 5:18 to every human is to make every human justified.

Thekla · Feb 25, 2009

Epiphoskei said:
Unless you believe that these verses, properly interpreted, mean only Christians are made alive, you are promoting universalism. The context cannot allow for "alive" to mean anything less than salvation. To extend Romans 5:18 to every human is to make every human justified.

isn't this verse in reference to the previous verse re: resurrection ?
(this one: For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
1Cor. 15:21-22)

chestertonrules · Feb 25, 2009

Epiphoskei said:
No, our predestination is furthered by the prayers of the saints. Predestination is compatibalistic. Do not make claims about our beliefs that cannot be reconciled with anything our theologians actually write.

Click to expand...

It depends on how you define predestination. It means somthing different to you and I.

I believe God knows out destiny. From his perspective, it is finished. However, we don't have his perspective. We must follow his will through the help of his grace. In addition, as I understand it, you deny our responsibility to cooperate with his grace.

Unless you believe that these verses, properly interpreted, mean only Christians are made alive, you are promoting universalism. The context cannot allow for "alive" to mean anything less than salvation. To extend Romans 5:18 to every human is to make every human justified.

Click to expand...

Absolutely not. Those verses merely state that Christ has reunited all men to God. We are now free to be led to justification and life or to reject this gift.

Read it again.

so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18

The sacrifice of Jesus does not assure justification and life for all.

LittleLambofJesus · Feb 25, 2009

so one mans act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18

Click to expand...

The sacrifice of Jesus does not assure justification and life for all.

John 11:50 neither ye are reckoning that expedient/profitable to ye that one Man may be dying over the people and no whole the Nation should be perishing.

Epiphoskei · Feb 25, 2009

chestertonrules said:
It depends on how you define predestination. It means somthing different to you and I.

I believe God knows out destiny. From his perspective, it is finished. However, we don't have his perspective. We must follow his will through the help of his grace. In addition, as I understand it, you deny our responsibility to cooperate with his grace.

The point is that historic predestinarians, including those in your church, have not accepted that model or the supposed consequences of rejecting synergism.

chestertonrules said:
Absolutely not. Those verses merely state that Christ has reunited all men to God. We are now free to be lead to justification and life or to reject this gift.

Reuniting men to God is salvation. "For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life." verse 10, same chapter.

chestertonrules said:
Read it again.

so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18

The sacrifice of Jesus does not assure justification and life for all.

Your argument is based on the belief that this verse means all men now have life. Saying what you just said abandons your entire argument. This is one of the interpretations I could take, but you can't while maintaining your interpretation.

chestertonrules · Feb 25, 2009

Epiphoskei said:
The point is that historic predestinarians, including those in your church, have not accepted that model or the supposed consequences of rejecting synergism.

Click to expand...

That is not correct. There have been a few exceptions, but none who deny man's responsibility to cooperate with God's grace.

Reuniting men to God is salvation. "For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life." verse 10, same chapter.

Click to expand...

Only if we pick up our cross and follow. Only if we persevere. Only if we press on toward the goal.

Your argument is based on the belief that this verse means all men now have life. Saying what you just said abandons your entire argument. This is one of the interpretations I would take, but you can't while maintaining your interpretation.

Click to expand...

This verse means that we are not dead to Christ. We also read that Jesus is drawing ALL men to Christ. He stands at the door and knocks.

Jesus has given us ALL, EVERY SINGLE HUMAN, sufficient grace for salvation. We must respond to this gift.

squint · Feb 25, 2009

Epiphoskei said:
These verses have been gone over by countless theologians, and there are numerous interpretations we could go over, but for the purposes of this discussion, unless you believe that these verses, properly interpreted, mean only Christians are made alive, you are promoting universalism.

For the record it is entirely possible to adhere to predestination and the eternal destruction of the wicked and still be universal with regards to the salvation of all mankind.

The context cannot allow for "alive" to mean anything less than salvation. To extend Romans 5:18 to every human is to make every human justified.

And if you are wrong then you are condemning the elect, which won't matter anyway, except you may get a little smaller shack on the outskirts of heaven, THAT'S ALL.

squint · Feb 25, 2009

DD2008 said:
Speaking the truth is very loving indeed. Love is never demonstrated in lies. Love and truth go hand and hand.

Ephesians 4:15
[15] Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ,

So, calling yourself and other people totally depraved IS LOVING THEM? Is this your final answer?

1 John 3:18
[18] Little children, let us not love in word or speech but in deed and in truth.

2 Thessalonians 2:10
[10] and with all wicked deception for those who are to perish, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

It will do no good to insert scriptures regarding the wicked perishing because I accept them as well, and DO NOT consider my fellow mankind totally depraved.

You see 'wicked' and automatically what that means to you is 'the other guy.'

squint · Feb 25, 2009

MamaZ said:
such as?

Such as the highlighted statements in your post, which of course you cannot see for the logical fallacy they contain.

squint · Feb 25, 2009

MamaZ said:
Because All men are sinners and sin condemns man to eternal seperation from God unless By His Mercy and Grace He predetermines who He will choose from destruction and who He will not is men sentencing men?

That just happens to be how you see things to (imho) let yourself off the hook and condemn the blinded sinners. That methodology is not loving our neighbors. It is a hypocritcal double standard.

squint · Feb 25, 2009

PETE_ said:
taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh

I see. So you believe having a heart of flesh entitles you to call your loved ones totally depraved?

squint · Feb 25, 2009

Epiphoskei said:
I'm pretty sure that universalism isn't O.K. in Catholic theology.

And that would be very wrong. The RCC has no requirement that a member believe that there is going to be a single individual of mankind in the Lake of Fire. It is not a common belief but it IS acceptable.

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