Calvinist Robots

squint · Feb 25, 2009

DD2008 said:
There are some things that can only be discerned by the spirit. So it is best to pray and try to discern in the spirit.

1 Corinthians 2:14
[14] The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

I have seen some absolutely BIZARRE doctrines wave that wand over them to justify same. Sorry. Bad methodology.

squint · Feb 25, 2009

Rick Otto said:
The seperation isn't so much about physi- or meta-physical distance.
It's about relational distance.
The closer we get in some ways, the farther apart we get in other ways.

And it has occurred to me that whatever happens serves Gods Purposes.

Albion · Feb 25, 2009

squint said:
[/size]

And I asked YOU to prove I misunderstood the term by SHOWING my misunderstanding in writing. And of course there is no such proof available to you other than your guess claiming itself to be my misunderstanding. Elaborate as it may be, a false statement without proof.

Suit yourself. It still doesn't make your use of the term anything like that which Calvin meant, and since Calvin's idea are at the heart of this thread--even specifically stated in the title--what his use of the term means is what matters, not any new way of using it that any of us might come up with.

So for the record, why not just cut to the chase on what IT DOES mean,

I did that several posts back.

You might consider that God is Perfect Enough to cover, encompass and eventually eradicate all opposition rather than retract and isolate from same?

Most of us have indeed considered that possibility at one time or another, but Universalism, despite some verses in scripture which have long been used to suggest that this is God's intention, is undercut by much stronger Biblical evidence that he has another plan.

IF God came and wiped both the action of the thief and the memory of that action from the face of the earth, then He'd be pretty cool as well eh?

Of course, but the analogy concerned OUR actions, not his.

Sin is an action of thought, word or deed

It is also inherited and visited upon others and a condition of being...or at least that is what the Bible teaches.

Rick Otto · Feb 25, 2009

Actually, Calvinistic Predestination is logical to a fault.

Only good intuition could detect that.

We shouldn't make the mistake of equating what is beyond our comprehension with what is beneath our intellectual standards (even if we don't consistently apply them).

LittleLambofJesus · Feb 25, 2009

MamaZ said:
Just don't call anyone depraved. LOL

Is that the word used in 2 Timothy 3:8?

2 Timothy 3:8 Which manner/way yet Jannes and Jambres withstand Moses thus also these are withstanding the truth men being depraved/katefqarmenoi <2704> (5772) the mind untested concerning the Faith. [This form of #2704 used in Genesis 6:13]

Genesis 6:13 And Elohim is saying to Noah, "an-end of-all-of flesh coming to faces of Me; that the land is full with violence from faces of them; and behold Me!, ruining-of-them/07843 shachath/katafqeirw the Land". [Exodus 12:33/Revelation 11:18]

[LXX] Genesis 6:13 kai eipen o qeov prov Nwe kairov pantov anqrwpou hkei enantion mou oti eplhsqh h gh adikiav ap' autwn kai idou egw katafqeirw autouv kai thn ghn

2704. katphtheiro kat-af-thi'-ro from 2596 and 5351; to spoil entirely, i.e. (literally) to destroy; or (figuratively) to deprave; --corrupt, utterly perish.

squint · Feb 25, 2009

Albion said:
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Suit yourself. It still doesn't make your use of the term anything like that which Calvin meant,

I haven't said what Calvin meant. Your point?

Most of us have indeed considered that possibility at one time or another, but Universalism, despite some verses in scripture which have long been used to suggest that this is God's intention, is undercut by much stronger Biblical evidence that he has another plan.

And I would POSTULATE that you MAY have little if ANY understanding of 'universalism.'

Of course, but the analogy concerned OUR actions, not his.

I will restate this one more time.

YOU SAID the actions of the person are NOT what TOTAL DEPRAVITY means in Calvinism...but that SIN makes us TOTALLY DEPRAVED...

And I pointed out that SIN(s) are in fact ACTIONS OF THE PERSON. K? You have violated your own intent. That's all I was pointing out. You cannot ELIMINATE SIN from the TOTAL DEPRAVITY equation because YOU CLAIM SIN causes TOTAL DEPRAVITY/ESTRANGEMENT.

Once again, you claimed that the actions of the person are NOT what TOTAL DEPRAVITY is, yet that it is SIN that 'causes' TOTAL DEPRAVITY/ESTRANGEMENT which same SIN ACTIONS are actions/condition of the person.

Can we just connect SIN to TOTAL DEPRAVITY now?

And for the record IF SIN is connected to TOTAL DEPRAVITY I fully accept that connection and that sin (in any form) is and REMAINS total depravity totally depraved.

Evergreen48 · Feb 25, 2009

MamaZ said:
MamaZ said:

We call them nothing. We speak as the scriptures teach us that man is born Spiritually dead and seperated from God. That in Receiving Christ He makes one alive in Him. We also are taught through scripture that God does the calling and the choosing of those according to His will in those whom He has predestined. Spiritual truth does not need the acceptance of Human Logic to be truth.

Click to expand...

Evergreen48 said:

How can a dead man receive Christ? As far as being 'born spiritually dead' is concerned, do you not realize that before one can die they first must be alive?

Click to expand...

Rick Otto said:

Only by the irresistable action of saving grace, mercifully applied by a loving God.
Our race experienced spiritual death in Adam.Those God elected to have mercy on, are born again.

Click to expand...

DD2008 said:

People are alive in flesh but dead in spirit. When The Lord saves an individual he quickens their spirit to life. This is what is meant by being born again. They are born in spirit.

Much like Lazarus was raised from the dead in body by Christ, the Elect are raised from spiritual death by Christ and are indeed born again.

Click to expand...

But neither of you have answered the basic question of 'how one can die if they are not alive first to do so'. I really appreciate your opinions and do respect them. But they do not answer my question.

MamaZ · Feb 25, 2009

squint said:
I will concede to the ascendancy of certain theological understandings to be above logic, but not too often, and particularly NOT if those understandings are detrimental to my unsaved neighbors whom I am commanded to love.

IF logic is used to DENY love, then it is not usable or valid logic to me. Fair or not?

Well what to you is Love? What love are you speaking about. How does truth of the scripture of predestination cancel out the Love we are to have for our fellow man? Can you explain that to me?

That is no excuse for belief in really stupid things.

For example, if a certain sect using their mystery of faith wand forbids their leaders to marry, and scriptures warn us that some will do that...what are we to make of the sects use of their mystery wand?

Even mysteries are meant to be 'understood.'

I am not so sure what you are meaning with Mystery wand. If God predetermines men unto salvation how is that a mystery? Scripture is the one who teaches us predestination. So this is where I am confused by many of your posts. If a natural man cannot understand the workings of God then how can human logic be what we are to lean unto? Scripture teaches us not to lean to our own understanding but to trust in God. So if we are not to lean to our own understanding why then must everything be logically linked?

MamaZ · Feb 25, 2009

Evergreen48 said:
But neither of you have answered the basic question of 'how one can die if they are not alive first to do so'. I really appreciate your opinions and do respect them. But they do not answer my question.

Natural man is born of the water or of the flesh. Natural birth. If they breathe after birth they are deemed live birth. This is the first and natural sense of man. Born not with the Spirit of God in them but the breathe of life. This man born will die for it is determined through scripture that a man must die. Even Jesus died to His earthly birth. But when a man is born again not of the will of man but of the Spirit of God they are what is called regenerated by the Holy Spirit that now dwells in the making them strangers to the world and alive unto Christ. Man doing good deeds will not make them born of the Spirit of God. This is why all who are saved are saved by Gods unfailing love and Mercy and Gods grace. It is not by any works that we have done but by the very life and death and ressurection of Christ Jesus..

Albion · Feb 25, 2009

Evergreen48 said:
But neither of you have answered the basic question of 'how one can die if they are not alive first to do so'. I really appreciate your opinions and do respect them. But they do not answer my question.

It seems a fair enough question, so I turned to my Webster. I found that the word can refer either to something that once was alive or to something merely absent life or incapable of it. "Barren" and "infertile" do not suppose that the entity once was fruitful or fertile.

Therefore, there is no reason that one cannot be dead whether or not he previously had been alive. In fact, the definition included as an example, "in a state of spiritual death."

MamaZ · Feb 25, 2009

All men living are not all Spiritual born. They just have the breath of life in them that makes them a living soul. Christ in them is the life giving Spirit. This is why one must be born again which is of the Fathers will to whom He sends His Spirit in order for men to become born again.

Rick Otto · Feb 25, 2009

'how one can die if they are not alive first to do so'

Albion said:
It seems a fair enough question, so I turned to my Webster. I found that the word can refer either to something that once was alive or to something merely absent life or incapable of it. "Barren" and "infertile" do not suppose that the entity once was fruitful or fertile.

Therefore, there is no reason that one cannot be dead whether or not he previously had been alive. In fact, the definition included as an example, "in a state of spiritual death."

Yeah.
Another word to explain it would be "stillborn".
Being "alive" is another relative state.
We were "alive" (in a sense)in Adam when he sinned.

squint · Feb 25, 2009

MamaZ said:
I am not so sure what you are meaning with Mystery wand. If God predetermines men unto salvation how is that a mystery?

The only mystery to me is how that mystery got turned into an excuse to damn our neighbors to be burned alive forever. The last time I checked faith worked through LOVE, not by damning our neighbors as totally depraved and heading for the eternal fire chamber without requite.

Doesn't that seem just a tad bit strange with compared to loving them? hello!

Scripture is the one who teaches us predestination.

I have no problem with predestination. I do however question the validity of Calvins version of same as being an absolutely pitifully poor reflection of scriptural predestination.

So this is where I am confused by many of your posts. If a natural man cannot understand the workings of God then how can human logic be what we are to lean unto?

There is not any scriptural admonishment to NOT 'reason' with the scriptures. And in that 'effort' we DO use human logic. This is unavoidable. I do not believe that God has asked me to be ignorant on the account of faith.

Scripture teaches us not to lean to our own understanding but to trust in God.

Leaning not to our own understanding MAY be to recognize that we CAN get trapped into various difficulties in these matters. How is it do you think so many are so utterly divided?

So if we are not to lean to our own understanding why then must everything be logically linked?

IF you were to bow to any idol of your own making, what would that be or consist of? Personally I have no interest in bowing to Mr. Calvin or Mr. Pope when I believe that there are far greater things to bow to than THEM or 'their reflections' which I consider to be a very very poor shadow.

And I make that measure continually to myself as well. I do not desire to be bound by my own pathetic reflections.

enjoy!

squint

chestertonrules · Feb 25, 2009

TraderJack said:
chestertonrules said:

Unless one is born again from above, they cannot choose to obey or believe, for they are dead to God, the enemy of God.

Click to expand...

All men are alive in Christ. We must pick up our cross and follow or reject the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
John 12:31-32

For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
1Cor. 15:21-22

Therefore just as one mans trespass led to condemnation for all, so one mans act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18

For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
Rom 11:32

Evergreen48 · Feb 25, 2009

Evergreen48 said:
Evergreen48 said:

But neither of you have answered the basic question of 'how one can die if they are not alive first to do so'. I really appreciate your opinions and do respect them. But they do not answer my question.

Click to expand...

Albion said:
Albion said:

It seems a fair enough question, so I turned to my Webster. I found that the word can refer either to something that once was alive or to something merely absent life or incapable of it. "Barren" and "infertile" do not suppose that the entity once was fruitful or fertile.

Therefore, there is no reason that one cannot be dead whether or not he previously had been alive. In fact, the definition included as an example, "in a state of spiritual death."

Click to expand...

MIRRIAM - WEBSTER
Main Entry: Dead
Etomology: Middle English deed, from Old English dēad; akin to Old Norse dauthr dead, deyja to die, Old High German tōt dead more at die
Date:
before 12th century

1: deprived of life : no longer alive.

The above is the primary meaning of the word 'dead'. What follows are different and various ways that we apply the word in our common English language.

2 a (1): having the appearance of death : deathly <in a dead faint> (2): lacking power to move, feel, or respond : numb b: very tired c (1): incapable of being stirred emotionally or intellectually : unresponsive <dead to pity> (2): grown cold : extinguished <dead coals>3 a: inanimate , inert <dead matter> b: barren , infertile <dead soil> c: no longer producing or functioning : exhausted <a dead battery>4 a (1): lacking power or effect <a dead law> (2): no longer having interest, relevance, or significance <a dead issue> b: no longer in use : obsolete <a dead language> c: no longer active : extinct <a dead volcano> d: lacking in gaiety or animation <a dead party> e (1): lacking in commercial activity : quiet (2): commercially idle or unproductive <dead capital> f: lacking elasticity <a dead tennis ball> g: being out of action or out of use <the phone went dead> ; specifically : free from any connection to a source of voltage and free from electric charges h (1): being out of play <a dead ball> (2): temporarily forbidden to play or to make a certain play in croquet5 a: not running or circulating : stagnant <dead water> b: not turning <the dead center of a lathe> c: not imparting motion or power although otherwise functioning <a dead rear axle> d: lacking warmth, vigor, or taste6 a: absolutely uniform <a dead level> b (1): unerring (2): exact <dead center of the target> (3): certain to be doomed <he's dead if he's late for curfew> (4): irrevocable <a dead loss> c: abrupt <brought to a dead stop> d (1): complete , absolute <a dead silence> (2): all-out <caught it on the dead run>7: devoid of former occupants <dead villages>
dead·ness noun
dead in the water
1: incapable of being effective : stalled <peace talks were dead in the water>2: as good as dead : doomed <most books are dead in the water long before their publication Phillip Lopate>
dead to rights
: with no chance of escape or excuse : red-handed <had him dead to rights for the robbery>
over one's dead body
: only by overcoming one's utter and determined resistance <vows that they'll raise his taxes over his dead body>
synonyms dead , defunct , deceased , departed , late mean devoid of life. dead applies literally to what is deprived of vital force but is used figuratively of anything that has lost any attribute (as energy, activity, radiance) suggesting life <a dead, listless performance>. defunct stresses cessation of active existence or operation <a defunct television series>. deceased , departed , and late apply to persons who have died recently. deceased is the preferred term in legal use <the estate of the deceased>. departed is used usually as a euphemism <our departed sister>. late is used especially with reference to a person in a specific relation or status <the company's late president>

Strong's EXHAUSTIVE CONCORDANCE :

Strong's Ref. # 3498

Romanized nekros
Pronounced nek-ros'

from the primary nekus (a corpse); dead (literally or figuratively; also as noun) :

Rick Otto said:
Yeah.
Another word to explain it would be "stillborn".
Being "alive" is another relative state.
We were "alive" (in a sense)in Adam when he sinned.

LOL (I'm in a jovial mood today. )

Which adam sinned, and in which adam were we alive:
This one, -------------> Genesis 2:8 And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the 'adam whom he had formed.
OR
this one ---------------> Ecclesiastes 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made 'adam upright; but they have sought out many inventions.
Or
this one --------------> Leviticus 1:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any 'adam of you bring an offering unto the Lord, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock.

MamaZ · Feb 25, 2009

squint said:
The only mystery to me is how that mystery got turned into an excuse to damn our neighbors to be burned alive forever. The last time I checked faith worked through LOVE, not by damning our neighbors as totally depraved and heading for the eternal fire chamber without requite.

Doesn't that seem just a tad bit strange with compared to loving them? hello!

Love rejoices in truth. If the truth is that God has predestined those whom He has Chosen why do so many reject this truth? Gods Mercy will be given to who He choose to give mercy to don't you think? We look at love in a human way of thinking most times. This it is not fair sort of way of thinking.

I have no problem with predestination. I do however question the validity of Calvins version of same as being an absolutely pitifully poor reflection of scriptural predestination. Like I have repeatedly stated I have very little knowledge of what Calvins version is really. What I have learned has come out of the scripture itself. Because I believe in predestination I am called a calvanist.

There is not any scriptural admonishment to NOT 'reason' with the scriptures. And in that 'effort' we DO use human logic. This is unavoidable. I do not believe that God has asked me to be ignorant on the account of faith. God through His word has shown to us that we are not to lean to our own understanding.. We need Godly wisdom to sift through the Spiritual things. Not human wisdom. For Even Peter could not understand why Jesus must Die for them to have eternal life. It just was not logical to him right then and there. Same with us today. Alot of the scripture just does not make logical sense but does not negate the fact that truth is truth whether our human wisdom can wrap around it or not. Gods ways are not our ways and this is hard for some to also understand..

Leaning not to our own understanding MAY be to recognize that we CAN get trapped into various difficulties in these matters. How is it do you think so many are so utterly divided?
Because of thier own human logic maybe? Failure to have the Spirit of God maybe.. I can't really truthfully say why.

IF you were to bow to any idol of your own making, what would that be or consist of? Personally I have no interest in bowing to Mr. Calvin or Mr. Pope when I believe that there are far greater things to bow to than THEM or 'their reflections' which I consider to be a very very poor shadow.

And I make that measure continually to myself as well. I do not desire to be bound by my own pathetic reflections.

enjoy!

squint

Well as I have said I believe in predestination and because I do I am labeled a calvanist.. LOL

squint · Feb 25, 2009

MamaZ said:
Well as I have said I believe in predestination and because I do I am labeled a calvanist.. LOL

I don't know what a calvanist is...

I do know that people who claim to be 'christians' and THEN sentence their unsaved neighbors to burn alive forever in conscious torment for not believing 'like they do' cannot equate that with loving same in any sane sense of the word.

PETE_ · Feb 25, 2009

We have no authority or power to Sentence anyone to hell. God, on the other hand, has the authority and power and does just that.

squint · Feb 25, 2009

PETE_ said:
We have no authority or power to Sentence anyone to hell. God, on the other hand, has the authority and power and does just that.

Pardon me? You certainly DO believe there is/will be your fellow mankind in (hell/lake of fire?)

Just because you do not attach a name doesn't mean you don't believe it in your heart...and that there is some (guessed) basis upon which you believe that transpires.

PETE_ · Feb 25, 2009

I did not say that I do not believe it, but you said that WE sentenced them to it. It is God doing that not ANY man, including us calvinist

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