Calvinist Robots

chestertonrules · Feb 24, 2009

Uphill Battle said:
I'm not talking about the difference in theology, but you questioned why they get defensive. Same reason you do. Someone is opposing what they hold as true.

On a personal basis, I agree.

On a theological basis, I disagree.

Calvinist theology does not need to be spread or defended in order to save souls.

Uphill Battle · Feb 24, 2009

A New Dawn said:
They don't need to hear it from 'us', but they need to hear it because God said that salvation is predicated on belief in Christ as savior, and that preaching the word was His method of choice for getting the message out. I'm not seeing what the problem is here.

I don't see the point.

chestertonrules · Feb 24, 2009

LamorakDesGalis said:
Its obvious that you have misrepresented Calvinists - and I'm not the only one who is telling you that. You are indeed wise in your own eyes.

LDG

Is this a misrepresentation?

Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).

http://www.calvinistcorner.com/tulip.htm

LamorakDesGalis · Feb 24, 2009

squint said:
Yes, I do believe Calvinism attempts to withdraw God entirely from any involvment in making the will of mankind Totally Depraved.

I asked Albion about his 'freewill for mankind' position because I 'thought' I saw that in some of his other posts, and THAT is uncommon amongst Calvinists, and to which you have not addressed for the Calvinist position nor have you addressed for Albion.

Calvinists would do themselves well to understand that God could be just a little more Sovereign than they have determined? To claim Divine Sovereignty and to be the determinant of 'what that consists of' is logically inconsistent i.e. a logical fallacy.

Your reply simply underscores what I said:
Your view of Calvinists is not only erroneous but extremely marginalized.

LDG

Uphill Battle · Feb 24, 2009

chestertonrules said:
On a personal basis, I agree.

On a theological basis, I disagree.

Calvinist theology does not need to be spread or defended in order to save souls.

I know, I know. You think you have the absolute truth, and you feel honour bound to spread it and defend it.

so do they.

so does everyone, really.

A New Dawn · Feb 24, 2009

Uphill Battle said:
I don't see the point.

I'm fine with that.

chestertonrules · Feb 24, 2009

Uphill Battle said:
I know, I know. You think you have the absolute truth, and you feel honour bound to spread it and defend it.

so do they.

so does everyone, really.

You are not following my point.

According to non Calvinist beliefs, not just Catholic beliefs, our efforts to witness and spread the gospel actually do save souls.

Calvinists believe these things are incidental. ie. It doesn't really matter what anyone does.

MamaZ · Feb 24, 2009

we preach the Gospel for the very reason that Faith cometh by hearing and hearing the word of God. Also for the fact that Gods word does not return unto Him void.. The preaching of the Gospel to some is life to others condemnation. For those who do not believe are judged already. It is the preaching of the Gospel that has the power unto salvation. Those whom God has chosen will come. Those who are not will turn away and mock and scorn..

squint · Feb 24, 2009

LamorakDesGalis said:
Your reply simply underscores what I said:
Your view of Calvinists is not only erroneous but extremely marginalized.

LDG

Look, I asked ALBION about HIS POSITION on human freewill.

How you sensationalized that into your FALSE charges above is not only inaccurate, but bizarre as I have said LITTLE about Calvinism in this thread and NOTHING specific is contained in your charges, which make them technically FALSE CHARGES without SPECIFICS.

IS THIS clear enough for you?

I am happy to discuss specifics, but will not indulge the ridiculous and unsubstantiated as anything but what it is.

False charges without specifics are what you have delivered. So what else is new in the world of christian posting boards?

chestertonrules · Feb 24, 2009

MamaZ said:
we preach the Gospel for the very reason that Faith cometh by hearing and hearing the word of God. Also for the fact that Gods word does not return unto Him void.. The preaching of the Gospel to some is life to others condemnation. For those who do not believe are judged already. It is the preaching of the Gospel that has the power unto salvation. Those whom God has chosen will come. Those who are not will turn away and mock and scorn..

It is sad that you have such a low opinion of God.

LamorakDesGalis · Feb 24, 2009

Uphill Battle said:
I'm sorry, why do people who are predestined to go to heaven need to hear it from you?

that's a illogical conclusion I cannot reconcile.

Calvinists do not hold to eternal justification.

Calvinists believe that God's wrath is on all unbelievers, including anyone who has been predestined (i.e., the elect).

Calvinists hold that at the point of conversion, God justifies the believer, which means they no longer bear God's wrath, and their status changes from God's enemy to being at peace with God. This change - conversion - is a specific point in time.

Calvinists also believe God uses people to spread the gospel and to accomplish His will. Calvinists believe God works through and uses the circumstances and will of the individual to bring them to a point of conversion.

LDG

Uphill Battle · Feb 24, 2009

A New Dawn said:
I'm fine with that.

good to know.

I don't really have a dog in this race anyways. I don't worry about the "ebils of Calvinism" or whether or not people believe in freewill/predestination.

the end result of either is pretty much the same. People are going to heaven, people are not.

I admit, Calvinism doesn't make much sense to me. However, something is not true, or NOT true, based off of my acceptance of it.

A New Dawn · Feb 24, 2009

chestertonrules said:
Calvinists believe these things are incidental. ie. It doesn't really matter what anyone does.

This is simply not true. It is a lie you have bought into.

MamaZ · Feb 24, 2009

chestertonrules said:
You are not following my point.

According to non Calvinist beliefs, not just Catholic beliefs, our efforts to witness and spread the gospel actually do save souls.

Calvinists believe these things are incidental. ie. It doesn't really matter what anyone does.

This is a misconception. For the preaching of the Gospel is what brings salvation to those whom hear the Gospel and believe. But to those whom do not believe the truth has been given and the consequences are just.. Just like in the Days of Noah. Noah preached and preached and built the ark. But none believed.. Why? Because God chose Noah and His family according to HIS will.

MamaZ · Feb 24, 2009

chestertonrules said:
It is sad that you have such a low opinion of God.

You do not know my opinion of My Father.

chestertonrules · Feb 24, 2009

Originally Posted by chestertonrules

Calvinists believe these things are incidental. ie. It doesn't really matter what anyone does.

A New Dawn said:
This is simply not true. It is a lie you have bought into.

Is this a lie?

Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).

http://www.calvinistcorner.com/tulip.htm

Rick Otto · Feb 24, 2009

chestertonrules said:
It is sad that you have such a low opinion of God.

More's the pity you deny the fullness of His truth.

Is this a lie?

Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).

If He considered anything about the individual in deciciding whom to place in Christ, His decision would be based on the merits of the individual & it would no longer be mercy, which is undeserved by definition. Grace for merit is a reward, not a gift of mercy.

You focus on the humans God decided to let experience His justice, & decide they somehow are worthy of at least a chance at salvation, possibly because you know you are no better than they & you're total dependance upon God's mercy for your life makes you feel completely vulnerable - totaly depraved (deprived) of any redeeming value in the eternal sense.

It may be true you're a nice guy, solid citizen, dependable provider, generous giver, etc., etc. but the value of all that is temporal, not eternal.

I have problems buying into eternal damnation in the literal sense, so it isn't as hard for me to be Calvinist, Chez.
Maybe knowing that will help you know where I'm comin' from personaly, man.

Uphill Battle · Feb 24, 2009

chestertonrules said:
You are not following my point.

According to non Calvinist beliefs, not just Catholic beliefs, our efforts to witness and spread the gospel actually do save souls.

Calvinists believe these things are incidental. ie. It doesn't really matter what anyone does.

based on what I'm reading on this thread, I don't believe that is an accurate rendering of Calvinist beliefs.

chestertonrules · Feb 24, 2009

MamaZ said:
You do not know my opinion of My Father.

You just told me.

You believe God chooses some for eternal torture with no regard for their thought, words or actions on earth.

You claim he puts us into two piles. One to love, one to torture.

You claim that he does this for his own glory.

chestertonrules · Feb 24, 2009

Uphill Battle said:
based on what I'm reading on this thread, I don't believe that is an accurate rendering of Calvinist beliefs.

Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).

http://www.calvinistcorner.com/tulip.htm

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