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LamorakDesGalis

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It just proves that "all" does not mean each and every one.

True.

Did Paul actually stir up riots among the Jews over all the world?

Acts 24:5 "We have found this man [Paul] to be a troublemaker, stirring up riots among the Jews all over the world. He is a ringleader of the Nazarene sect...

Did the Pharisees actually think the whole world followed after Jesus?

John 12:19 So the Pharisees said to one another, "See, this is getting us nowhere. Look how the whole world has gone after him!"
 
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A New Dawn

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Shhh!! It's best not to let it be widely known that all doesn't really mean all, and that the whole world doesn't really mean the whole world. Some here have created whole doctrines on the belief that those words mean exactly what they say.
 
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JacobHall86

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Christ died for all, not all accept ...

If he died for all, why are not all saved? Isn't the power of the blood of Christ enough to cover the sins of the whole world right?
 
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Tzaousios

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If he died for all, why are not all saved? Isn't the power of the blood of Christ enough to cover the sins of the whole world right?

Isn't the answer to this question predicated on the type of Calvinist one is? Christ died for only the elect, therefore his blood is only efficient for the elect. The atonement of his blood is limited to the elect. God's purpose in predestining Christ was for his blood to atone for the elect.
 
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Well do you know that you have eternal life?
 
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ArcticFox

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If he died for all, why are not all saved? Isn't the power of the blood of Christ enough to cover the sins of the whole world right?

I'm not too strict a Calvinist on this. The Bible isn't clear in specifically what way he could have died for all without that death applying to all.

I know one thing for sure, from a human standpoint, reading the Bible it seems to make no sense that Jesus would die expressly for people who thus do not accept him and thus do not become saved.

It would mean that God's efforts were in vain for those individuals, and God's power falls flat on the floor.

It seems unlikely. I'm not going to pick at scripture to try to force my view one way or another, however. I know that, in at least some sense, Jesus sacrifice does not fully apply to those who ultimately are not saved.
 
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squint

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And any good Bible student knows there is more than one world involved with these matters...particularly ONE WORLD with 'occupants' who REACT to the Word which same we cannot see with physical eyes, so it's not as easy an equation as you make it when you are only looking at the world through fleshly eyes:

Matthew 13:19
When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

It remains entirely conceivable for example that every DEVIL in the whole world can hear the Gospel being proclaimed because the WORD is spiritual and THEY obviously 'react' to same. ALL is Israel regarding THE DEVILS could have heard every single Word spoken by Jesus as another example applied to your scripture above or with these as well:

Matthew 21:10
And when he was come into Jerusalem, all the city was moved, saying, Who is this?

Was ALL, every man, woman and child thusly MOVED?

Perhaps SO if the EVIL PRESENT with them was listening...

Not so easy to dismiss 'all' and other terms with a slightly expanded view of who the writers may be speaking about.

Same for Calvins 'limited atonement' equation. The atonement can be for ALL mankind and for NONE of DEVILkind (who happen to be with mankind.)

enjoy!

squint







 
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Evergreen48

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Then sometime between the time the earth was created and the time it became inhabited is when we were chosen. Is that what you believe?

MamaZ said:
So what do you believe this scripture is saying up above?
That we will reap what we sow.


We cannot truthfully say that our desire is always for the Lord, if we sometimes desire to do things that are not acceptable to the Lord.


John 11:25. Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26. And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Yes, I believe I do have eternal life.




Evergreen48 said:
Ever hear of 'quenching the spirit'? MamaZ
MamaZ said:
One has to have the Spirit of God in them to quench the Spirit.
I believe that is what Chesterton was telling you: that everyone has, or shall be (as they are born into this world) made alive by His Spirit which lives in them. And I am telling you that this Spirit can be quenched to the point that it no longer lives in the individual, by walking 'according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air', ' fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind'.

Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
 
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Rick Otto

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Originally Posted by jckstraw72

i havent been reading this whole thread -- are you saying that the fact that not all are saved proves TULIP?
It just proves that "all" does not mean each and every one.

I see that a lot. People thinking one piece of a puzzle fitting in with what they think they already know, validates an entire misconception.

No one thing proves all five doctrinal points, but each point is inextricably linked by continuity in the philosophy of theology at it's core, the doctrine of grace & election. That those two facts exist & are divinely directed is undermined by the idea that God determines that direction based on each creature's motive,... it's counter-intuitive to the sovereignity dynamic & impossible in the stark reality of omniscience. God knew what each creature would do in every moment of its existence before He created it.
Then sometime between the time the earth was created and the time it became inhabited is when we were chosen. Is that what you believe?
No, everything that exists, everything that happens in existence, was known before anything at all was created. That is the nature of determinate council by omniscients.
We can imagine what omniscience might be like, but we can't conceive it.
It boggles me to think how it would affect emotional dynamics.
 
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chestertonrules

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And I posted Strong's that says differently.


Who cares?

Can't you respond to my post?

I asssume you are admitting that you have no response.


Just curious, do you think the word YOU in the above sentence also has two different meanings?
 
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chestertonrules

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Stop reading scripture through the trouble mind of Calvin. Read it yourself!
 
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LamorakDesGalis

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I'm not too strict a Calvinist on this. The Bible isn't clear in specifically what way he could have died for all without that death applying to all.

Historical Calvinist writers affirm the universal aspects of the atonement. There are many, many quotes - including from Calvin - but here are just a few:


Charles Hodge in Systematic Theology (vol. II) p. 546:
"There is a sense, therefore, in which He died for all, and there is a sense in which He died for the elect alone."

AA Hodge in Outlines of Theology, p. 416:
"Nor is there any debate as to the universal reference of some of the benefits purchased by Christ. Calvinists believe that the entire dispensation of forbearance under which the human family rest since the fall, including for the unjust as well as the just temporal mercies and means of grace, is part of the purchase of Christ’s blood. They admit also that Christ did in a sense die for all men, that he thereby removed all legal obstacles from the salvation of any and every man, and that his satisfaction may be applied to one man as well as to another if God so wills it."

R.B. Kuiper in For Whom Did Christ Die? pp. 78-79:
"According to the Reformed faith the divine design of the atonement is in an important respect limited. But the Reformed faith also insists that in other respects it is universal. It can be shown without the slightest difficulty that certain benefits of the atonement, other than the salvation of individuals, are universal.... Therefore the statement, so often heard from Reformed pulpits, that Christ died only for the elect must be rated a careless one... The particular design of the atonement and its universal design in no way contradict each other. Nor do they merely complement each other. They support and strengthen each other. In final analysis they stand and fall together."


LDG
 
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chestertonrules

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These guys don't sound like the Calvinists here on GT!

 
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LamorakDesGalis

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Who cares?

Can't you respond to my post?

I asssume you are admitting that you have no response.

No, actually your understanding of Calvinism is a house of cards.

And when a person's argument is a house of cards, what does it matter if that person insists that the third level contains the king of spades?


LDG
 
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chestertonrules

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No, actually your understanding of Calvinism is a house of cards.

And when a person's argument is a house of cards, what does it matter if that person insists that the third level contains the king of spades?


LDG


I responded to her post specifically.

You obviously didn't even read the interchange.

Perhaps you should inform yourself before interjecting nonsense.
 
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