Calvinist Arminian dialog

[Skala]

He did not have to will that the elect would choose Him or that the reprobate would not. He simply knows.

You're assuming that anyone would be willing to choose Him apart from being elected.

Big assumption.

 

[Hentenza]

You're assuming that anyone would be willing to choose Him apart from being elected.

Big assumption.

Everyone that has chosen Him has chosen Him before the foundation of the world because God has perfect knowledge and cannot be contingent on anything or anyone. There is no assumption. If you claim that God knows all then you have to accept that He knows all free actions, past, present, and future.

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

"Love the Lord your God with all your heart
and with all your soul and with all your mind.
Love your neighbor as yourself."
(Matthew 22:37-40 NIV 1984 Edition)

And there is no 'try to' or 'do your best' here. Perfect God expects perfect obedience ! You got to be 100% sinless 100% of the time.

Egyptian paganism and, later, Jewish Pharisees taught that we're weighed on a balancing scale. If our good deeds outweigh are sins, we're saved. If our sins outweigh our good deeds, we go to Hell.

Sacred Scripture knows nothing of such relativism ! When the Hebrews were given the Decalogue, they replied: "We will do everything the Lord has said" (Exodus 19:8) ...the only acceptable answer.

Not 'we will do most of what the Lord has said'. Or, 'a lot of it'. Or, 'give it a good try'.

No. It was "everything the Lord has said" !

And -if keeping our salvation depends upon what we do- we must be perfect as God is perfect (Matthew 5:48). Though in reality:

"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive
ourselves and the truth is not in us"
(1 John 1:8 NIV 1984 Edition)

Though as Christians we attempt perfection (out of gratitude for our redemption), happily our salvation does not depend upon it. Or we'd all be in Hell.

Things like praying and membership in a True Church are SIGNS of salvation rather than MEANS of salvation.

An old Reformation adage: "We aren't saved by our works, but neither do we have a salvation which has no works".

Salvation requires perfect works. There has to be perfect works ! Christians rely upon the perfect works of Jesus Christ for redemption.

But after all of what you say, you still gave no answer as to why the puppet you say you are does not fully obey. Does the puppet choose not to obey and still be a puppet? Of course the answer is that no one is a puppet other than the self proclaimed ones. Everyone else has to exercise faith which comes from the word of God produced by the word and the Holy Spirit of God as they are drawn to believe the scriptures. Nevertheless, except they receive Him by faith, they are still in their sin, but those that believe Him are born from above and declared to be His children and sealed with the Holy Spirit. John1:12, Eph 1:13-14, John 6:63.

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

Since all the drawn are raised up on the last day, it is an accurate and biblical assertion.

Jesus answered. 44“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

John 12:32 And I if I be lifted up from the earth will draw all men to Myself.
But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for they that come to Him must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. Heb 11:6.
Some still refuse Him even though they believed Him. John 12:42-43 Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue; 43for they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God. So it was not that they could not believe, it was that they loved the praise of men more.

 

[Skala]

Everyone that has chosen Him has chosen Him before the foundation of the world because God has perfect knowledge and cannot be contingent on anything or anyone. There is no assumption. If you claim that God knows all then you have to accept that He knows all free actions, past, present, and future.

I accept more than that he simply "knows" who will choose Him, but in fact He has decreed and decided who will choose Him.

 

[Skala]

John 12:32 And I if I be lifted up from the earth will draw all men to Myself.

If you believe "draw" people here means the same thing it meant in John 6, then we are left with universalism.

1) You can't "exegete" John 6 by going to another chapter with another context and another audience and try to mesh them together.

2) Draw does not merely mean to 'woo' or "entice" or "try to get people" to come, but it means to drag or compel with force or authority. The underlying Greek word means to drag, the same word is used to draw a sword from a sheath, draw fish with a net, and drag the apostles into the marketplace. If you don't believe me, check your concordance, then do a word search. You will then understand the meaning of the word. This isn't a theological statement, it's just a fact. Draw is helkuo which means to drag, not "woo"

http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/helkuo.html

3) Since draw does not mean "try to" get people to come to Him, but that they, when drawn, actually come to Him (John 6:44), then the statement in John 12:32 does not mean that Jesus "tries" to save everyone. In fact if you read the context, some Greeks had just approached wanting to see Him, therefore he is saying all men - both Jews and Gentiles - will be drawn to him. Not that every single individual in the human race will be drawn to Him.

 

[Hentenza]

I accept more than that he simply "knows" who will choose Him, but in fact He has decreed and decided who will choose Him.

Nope. You can't prove that biblically. The argument would be fallacious. God has no need to elect anyone because He already knows who will choose Him. He has always had this knowledge.

BTW- Since you claim that He has decreed and decided who will choose him, can you tell me who the elect are?

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

If you believe "draw" people here means the same thing it meant in John 6, then we are left with universalism.

1) You can't "exegete" John 6 by going to another chapter with another context and another audience and try to mesh them together.

2) Draw does not merely mean to 'woo' or "entice" or "try to get people" to come, but it means to drag or compel with force or authority. The underlying Greek word means to drag, the same word is used to draw a sword from a sheath, draw fish with a net, and drag the apostles into the marketplace. If you don't believe me, check your concordance, then do a word search. You will then understand the meaning of the word. This isn't a theological statement, it's just a fact. Draw is helkuo which means to drag, not "woo"

Helkuo - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard

3) Since draw does not mean "try to" get people to come to Him, but that they, when drawn, actually come to Him (John 6:44), then the statement in John 12:32 does not mean that Jesus "tries" to save everyone. In fact if you read the context, some Greeks had just approached wanting to see Him, therefore he is saying all men - both Jews and Gentiles - will be drawn to him. Not that every single individual in the human race will be drawn to Him.

It's the same word #1670 in the Strong's Concordance. And I could say to you by your own reasoning that you cannot take the same word and make it mean something different just to fit your view. And because He draws all people to Himself does not mean that everyone will be saved, but it does mean that everyone who receives Him will become His children, John 1:12.
All means one thing to you, but when God commands all men everywhere to repent, to me, it means that all men without exception are commanded to repent and to those that don't, then Luke 13:3 applies, except you repent, you shall likewise perish. That is what Jesus told them that day, and it still applies today to all of mankind. And just like Rom 1:18-32 He has written it on every mans heart to know about His eternal Godhead. 18-32 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. 24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality,[c] wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving,[d] unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.


So these and all who refuse to receive Him are still in their sin and are already in the condemnation state. But once they willfully know and still reject Him, they fall in the Heb 6 passage where it is impossible to bring them to repentance.

 

[OzSpen]

How did He know?

Ever heard of God's omniscience?:o

 

[Skala]

Nope. You can't prove that biblically.

Sure I can. take a gander at Romans 9, 2 Thess 2:13, Acts 13:48, 1 Cor 1:20-31, Eph 1:4-11, and hundreds of other passages that speak not only about election but God's complete and absolute sovereignty over each person's destiny as well as complete and absolute sovereignty in general.

The argument would be fallacious. God has no need to elect anyone because He already knows who will choose Him. He has always had this knowledge.

So you deny election completely, not just Calvinists understanding of election?

BTW- Since you claim that He has decreed and decided who will choose him, can you tell me who the elect are?

No, I can't, and I never claimed to know who the elect are. They are known to God. The Lord knows those who are His. Since he chose them before time began (Eph 1), obviously, He knows them. The most I can tell you is that the elect are everyone who is saved, or will be saved in the future.

 

[Skala]

It's the same word #1670 in the Strong's Concordance.

Um yes, that's what I've been saying all along, and it means to drag, not "entice" or "woo"

And I could say to you by your own reasoning that you cannot take the same word and make it mean something different just to fit your view.

Actually, you're the one doing this, as the word means to drag, not "entice" or "woo".

So basically you completely ignore the definition of the word and continue to assert that it means to "woo" or "entice".

Gotcha. Dialogue with someone who isn't concerned with the actual truth is never fruitful.

 

[Skala]

Ever heard of God's omniscience?:o

Ever heard of God's sovereignty?

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

Um yes, that's what I've been saying all along, and it means to drag, not "entice" or "woo"



Actually, you're the one doing this, as the word means to drag, not "entice" or "woo".

So basically you completely ignore the definition of the word and continue to assert that it means to "woo" or "entice".

Gotcha. Dialogue with someone who isn't concerned with the actual truth is never fruitful.

Thayer's Definition

1. to draw, drag off
2. metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel

Strong's Definition

Probably akin to G138; to drag (literally or figuratively): - draw. Compare G1667.

The only thing you got was in your own mind. Jesus is drawing the sinner to Himself for salvation, but that does not mean that the person cannot choose to not receive Him and receive His forgiveness. Just like John 12:42 says about those that believed Him but did not confess Him. You neglect the principle that God has written knowledge of Him on all hearts, not just some, but all meaning all, just as the passage of Romans 1 states, and they refused and that is why God turned them over to a reprobate mind. It was not because they could not accept Him, but because they did not accept His will and repent and receive His Son. He lights every man that comes into the world and to as many as receive Him to them gave He the power to become the children of God, John 1:9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.
Thayer's Definition of the light which Jesus gives to every man coming into the world

1. to give light, to shine
2. to enlighten, light up, illumine
3. to bring to light, render evident
   1. to cause something to exist and thus come to light and become clear to all
4. to enlighten, spiritually, imbue with saving knowledge
   1. to instruct, to inform, teach
   2. to give understanding to

So we see that the principle reason Jesus came into the world was to save sinners, not the righteous. He came to make the sinners into sheep and His children. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes on Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

[Hentenza]

Sure I can. take a gander at Romans 9, 2 Thess 2:13, Acts 13:48, 1 Cor 1:20-31, Eph 1:4-11, and hundreds of other passages that speak not only about election but God's complete and absolute sovereignty over each person's destiny as well as complete and absolute sovereignty in general.

Brother, I know the argument. God has complete sovereignty. But God also has perfect knowledge. Tell me, when did God "choose" the elect?

So you deny election completely, not just Calvinists understanding of election?

I don't deny election but have merely taken election to its logical conclusion. If God has perfect knowledge, and if God is completely sovereign, then God has no need to "choose" since He already knows who will choose Him. A sovereign God cannot be contingent.

ETA: The question should be: why would God need to elect those that He already know are going to choose Him?

No, I can't, and I never claimed to know who the elect are. They are known to God. The Lord knows those who are His. Since he chose them before time began (Eph 1), obviously, He knows them. The most I can tell you is that the elect are everyone who is saved, or will be saved in the future.

I can tell you who the elect are. They are everyone who has faith in the Lord. Sola fide. Some will die a reprobate and some will die with faith and be saved. God has always known who belongs in each group.

John 3
18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the [f]only begotten Son of God.

 

[Hentenza]

Ever heard of God's sovereignty?

Are sovereignty and omniscience in opposition?

 

[Skala]

Jesus is drawing the sinner to Himself for salvation, but that does not mean that the person cannot choose to not receive Him and receive His forgiveness.

There you go ignoring the definition of the word again

 

[Skala]

Brother, I know the argument. God has complete sovereignty. But God also has perfect knowledge.

He has perfect knowledge because he has perfect sovereignty. His knowledge of what will happen is predicated on the fact that He himself "works all things according to the counsel of His own will" and that he has "declared the end from the beginning" and "He doeth according to his will in both heaven and on earth"

Tell me, when did God "choose" the elect?

Before the foundation of the world.

I don't deny election but have merely taken election to its logical conclusion. If God has perfect knowledge, and if God is completely sovereign, then God has no need to "choose" since He already knows who will choose Him. A sovereign God cannot be contingent.

He knows who will choose him because He is sovereign over their salvation and He himself brings them to a knowledge of the truth, grants them faith and repentance, and converts them.

ETA: The question should be: why would God need to elect those that He already know are going to choose Him?

He elects them and the result is that they choose him.

I can tell you who the elect are. They are everyone who has faith in the Lord. Sola fide. Some will die a reprobate and some will die with faith and be saved. God has always known who belongs in each group.

That's similar to what I said. the elect are all who are saved or will be saved in the future.

John 3
18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the [f]only begotten Son of God.

Amen!

 

[Hentenza]

He has perfect knowledge because he has perfect sovereignty. His knowledge of what will happen is predicated on the fact that He himself "works all things according to the counsel of His own will" and that he has "declared the end from the beginning" and "He doeth according to his will in both heaven and on earth"

All has been worked by Him according to His will in both Heaven and Earth and this IS why He has known all since before the foundation of the world.

Before the foundation of the world.

Exactly.

He knows who will choose him because He is sovereign over their salvation and He himself brings them to a knowledge of the truth, grants them faith and repentance, and converts them.

Why does God has to bring the saved to a knowledge of truth and grants them faith and "converts" them if He already knows those who will come to the knowledge of truth and will believe in Him?

He elects them and the result is that they choose him.

lol. But He already knows, right? What is the purpose of election if He already knows who will believe in Him?

That's similar to what I said. the elect are all who are saved or will be saved in the future.

Of course.

Amen!

Yep. Did you noticed that those who do not believe in Him are judged already? Did you also noticed the statement of fact that those who believe in Him will not be judged? Didn't God know "who" since the foundation of the world as you have already agreed? If so, then this verse is one of many that clearly explain God's knowledge of who belongs to each group, right?

 

[Skala]

All has been worked by Him according to His will in both Heaven and Earth and this IS why He has known all since before the foundation of the world.




Exactly.






Why does God has to bring the saved to a knowledge of truth and grants them faith and "converts" them if He already knows those who will come to the knowledge of truth and will believe in Him?




lol. But He already knows, right? What is the purpose of election if He already knows who will believe in Him?





Of course.





Yep. Did you noticed that those who do not believe in Him are judged already? Did you also noticed the statement of fact that those who believe in Him will not be judged? Didn't God know "who" since the foundation of the world as you have already agreed? If so, then this verse is one of many that clearly explain God's knowledge of who belongs to each group, right?

Gotta be honest, I don't even know what we're disagreeing on.

 

[Hentenza]

Gotta be honest, I don't even know what we're disagreeing on.

lol I know, right.

Here is what we are disagreeing on. In the God's knowledge scenario, God knows all free actions, therefore no election is really necessary since God's election equals those that He knows will have faith. Therefore, the believer has the free will to choose God during their lifetime while the reprobate has the free will not to choose God during their lifetime. None can choose opposite to what God already knows simply because they don't know what the future holds so the action is a free will action by definition but is one that God already knows and the person does not. God retains His sovereignty and man retains his free will. Also, this explains why God is not the creator of sin by electing the reprobate to perdition since they chose to sin to death.

So, the logical conclusion is that there is no valid Calvinist versus Arminian argument since both have elements that are wrong and both have elements that are right but neither properly explains election in light of God's knowledge.