Calvinism

[Leimeng]

~ The major problem of Calvinism, as well as Arminianism, et al, is that they have to ignore about one third of Scripture for their system to work. Of course, no calvinist or arminian would ever admit that. In fact, they would probably be offended by that statement of fact.
~ Another major problem of Calvinism and Arminianism is that both of them try to apply modern meanings to different words in the English language which were written in an English style several hundred years old.
~ Yet another problem of those two systems is a lack of understanding of Greek and Hebrew as well as the Greek and Hebrew culture which provided the backdrop for Scripture.
~ The best idea is to read the Bible and ask the Holy Spirit to teach you. Then, for entertainment and intellectual enjoyment, read different viewpoints as taught by fallen men.
~ Continue to discuss amongst yourselves...

Peace,

Flatulo Ergo Sum ~~~

NyQuil - The stuffy, sneezy, coughing, why-oh-why-is-the-room-spinning medicine.

 

[theseed]

Sometimes, hyper-Calvinists will call Calvnist "hypo-Calvinists" to be sarcastic.

Here is a thread and a website about the subject of Hyper-Calvinism.

What is hyper-calvinism?

http://www.ldolphin.org/common.html (I'm not sure about this website, I think it talks about common grace vs. grace for salvation.

You may also be interested in this thread.
Myths and Misconceptions about Calvinism

Here is some more info.


A Primer on Hyper-Calvinism

 

[theseed]

~ The major problem of Calvinism, as well as Arminianism, et al, is that they have to ignore about one third of Scripture for their system to work. Of course, no calvinist or arminian would ever admit that. In fact, they would probably be offended by that statement of fact.
~ Another major problem of Calvinism and Arminianism is that both of them try to apply modern meanings to different words in the English language which were written in an English style several hundred years old.
~ Yet another problem of those two systems is a lack of understanding of Greek and Hebrew as well as the Greek and Hebrew culture which provided the backdrop for Scripture.
~ The best idea is to read the Bible and ask the Holy Spirit to teach you. Then, for entertainment and intellectual enjoyment, read different viewpoints as taught by fallen men.
~ Continue to discuss amongst yourselves...

Peace,

Flatulo Ergo Sum ~~~

NyQuil - The stuffy, sneezy, coughing, why-oh-why-is-the-room-spinning medicine.

The real problem is that all those things can be said about what you believe 1)Ignoring Scripture, 2)not knowing the Greek, 3)Not alloing The Holy Spirit to teach you. 4)The meanings of words.

 

[ps139]

theseed, what does this word mean? :
supralapsarian

 

[theseed]

theseed, what does this word mean? :
supralapsarian

Supralapsarians believe that God chose certian people to be damned and certain people to be saved, whereas infralapsarians believe that all were damned, and God chose to pardon some. I'm infralapsarian.

supralapsarian

\Su`pra*lap*sa"ri*an\, n. [Supra- + lapse: cf. F. supralapsaire.] (Eccl. Hist.) One of that class of Calvinists who believed that God's decree of election determined that man should fall, in order that the opportunity might be furnished of securing the redemption of a part of the race, the decree of salvation being conceived of as formed before or beyond, and not after or following, the lapse, or fall. Cf. Infralapsarian.
Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

 

[ps139]

So would supralapsarians believe in double predestination?

 

[JM]

I'm a seven pointer!

The "sixth" point, double predestination, is simply the flip side of unconditional election. Just as God chooses whom He will save without regard to any distinctives in the person (Ephesians 1:5-6; Acts 13:48; Revelation 17:8), so also he decides whom He will not save without regard to any distinctives in the individual (John 10:26; 12:37-40; Romans 9:11-18; 1 Peter 2:7-8). By definition, the decision to elect some individuals to salvation necessarily implies the decision not to save those that were not chosen. God ordains not only that some will be rescued from his judgment, but that others will undergo that judgment. This does not mean that someone might really want to be saved but then be rejected because they are on the wrong list. Rather, we are all dead in sin and unwilling to seek God on our own. A true, genuine desire for salvation in Christ is in fact a mark of election, and therefore none who truly come to Christ for salvation will be turned away (John 6:37-40).

So just as God doesn't choose to save certain people because they are better than others (unconditional election), neither does he choose not to save certain people because they are worse than others (unconditional reprobation, or double predestination). Rather, everybody is lost in sin and no one has anything to recommend them to God above anyone else. And so from this mass of fallen humanity, God chooses to redeem some and leave others.

The "seventh" point, the best-of-all-possible worlds, means that God governs the course of history so that, in the long run, His glory will be more fully displayed and His people more fully satisfied than would have been the case in any other world. If we look only at the way things are now in the present era of this fallen world, this is not the best-of-all-possible worlds. But if we look at the whole course of history, from creation to redemption to eternity and beyond, and see the entirety of God's plan, it is the best-of-all-possible plans and leads to the best-of-all-possible eternities. And therefore this universe (and the events that happen in it from creation into eternity, taken as a whole) is the best-of-all-possible-worlds.

http://www.desiringgod.org/library/theological_qa/calvinism/seven_points.html

'Most' Baptists follow what's called Amyraldianism (it's a big word and probably the reason why it's not well known). It was the work of Moyse Amyrault (born 1596 - died 1664) and is semi-Calvinist. http://www.tulipedia.org/Amyraldianism

 

[unimportantbuthisnameis]

So would supralapsarians believe in double predestination?

All Calvinists believe in double predestination, but not all of them teach it.

 

[unimportantbuthisnameis]

I'm a seven pointer!
'Most' Baptists follow what's called Amyraldianism (it's a big word and probably the reason why it's not well known). It was the work of Moyse Amyrault (born 1596 - died 1664) and is semi-Calvinist.

Actually the average Southern Baptist (I'll use the term because it what I am most familiar with) is at best a 2-3 point Calvinist, because Amyraldianism teaches hypothetical unlimited antonement. But most Southern Baptist believe the limited effectiveness of the atonement, as well as total depravity (not to be confused with total inability), and eternal security.

 

[ps139]

All Calvinists believe in double predestination, but not all of them teach it.

I thought that was the 6th point? Are you saying a 5 point Calvinist believes that?

 

[JM]

I thought that was the 6th point? Are you saying a 5 point Calvinist believes that?

You can't have the 5 without reasoning the last 2. It's a joke in a way to list yourself as a 7 pointer.

 

[unimportantbuthisnameis]

You can't have the 5 without reasoning the last 2. It's a joke in a way to list yourself as a 7 pointer.

precisely

 

[DiscipleOfIAm]

Did I say anything about you not being saved?

Easy!! Lighten up a bit. I was simply stating that we can all have our own opinions or beliefs about a subject and still end up in the same place.

Such combative Christians on this forum. I thought we were all supposed to love each other and share similarities and differences. Everyone always seems to get so combative and defensive and ready to argue/debate at the drop of a hat. Sometimes I feel like I have to articulate every word to ensure that it isn't taken out of context and is explained fully to ensure there is no debate or combative reaction. I'm just venting, that's all. I came to this forum from another forum that was very uptight and tense thinking this one would be better, but recently I'm getting a little discouraged with the posts I'm seeing. Why is it that every thing we discuss has to end up debated or argued to death?

Sorry....God Bless to all!

 

[JM]

Such combative Christians on this forum.

Could just be the style of writting, I'm often seen as posting 'combative' posts, but I really don't mean to.

 

[Crazy Liz]

Easy!! Lighten up a bit. I was simply stating that we can all have our own opinions or beliefs about a subject and still end up in the same place.

Such combative Christians on this forum. I thought we were all supposed to love each other and share similarities and differences. Everyone always seems to get so combative and defensive and ready to argue/debate at the drop of a hat. Sometimes I feel like I have to articulate every word to ensure that it isn't taken out of context and is explained fully to ensure there is no debate or combative reaction. I'm just venting, that's all. I came to this forum from another forum that was very uptight and tense thinking this one would be better, but recently I'm getting a little discouraged with the posts I'm seeing. Why is it that every thing we discuss has to end up debated or argued to death?

Sorry....God Bless to all!

Don't worry, DOIA. You're not alone. I'm not a Calvinist, either. Point #6 simply goes too far against God's love. Teach your children that God loves them and all their little friends and don't worry about those who disagree.

 

[theseed]

Don't worry, DOIA. You're not alone. I'm not a Calvinist, either. Point #6 simply goes too far against God's love. Teach your children that God loves them and all their little friends and don't worry about those who disagree.

Off course, Many Calvinists agree that God loves everbody.

 

[theseed]

So would supralapsarians believe in double predestination?

Yes, and it can be said of infralapsarians too. Even though God choses to pardon some, by default he choses some not to pardon. Honestly, I don't think single predestination is logical--it just splitting hairs.

 

[theseed]

Actually the average Southern Baptist (I'll use the term because it what I am most familiar with) is at best a 2-3 point Calvinist, because Amyraldianism teaches hypothetical unlimited antonement. But most Southern Baptist believe the limited effectiveness of the atonement, as well as total depravity (not to be confused with total inability), and eternal security.

Dod some SBCer's distinguish between total inability and total depravity?

 

[theseed]

Easy!! Lighten up a bit. I was simply stating that we can all have our own opinions or beliefs about a subject and still end up in the same place.

Such combative Christians on this forum. I thought we were all supposed to love each other and share similarities and differences. Everyone always seems to get so combative and defensive and ready to argue/debate at the drop of a hat. Sometimes I feel like I have to articulate every word to ensure that it isn't taken out of context and is explained fully to ensure there is no debate or combative reaction. I'm just venting, that's all. I came to this forum from another forum that was very uptight and tense thinking this one would be better, but recently I'm getting a little discouraged with the posts I'm seeing. Why is it that every thing we discuss has to end up debated or argued to death?

Sorry....God Bless to all!

I'm sorry, I did not mean to stress you so. However, your post did sound combative because you were insenuating that your church was a NT church (biblical) and that Calvinists churches were not.

May the grace of our Lord be with you, now and always may you stay blameless until he comes.

 

[Fat]

This comes an article posted at (biblediscussion.org) It's to long to post here but the questions makes you see how complicated the issue of election vs. free will is.

"Why pray for anyone's conversion if God has chosen before the foundation of the world who will be his sons?" A person in need of conversion is "dead in trespasses and sins" (Ephesians 2:1); he is "enslaved to sin" (Romans 6:17; John 8:34); "the god of this world has blinded his mind that he might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ" (II Corinthians. 4:4); his heart is hardened against God (Ephesians 4:18) so that he is hostile to God and in rebellion against God's will (Romans 8:7).

Now I would like to turn the question back to my questioner: If you insist that this man must have the power of ultimate self-determination, what is the point of praying for him? What do you want God to do for Him? You can't ask that God overcome the man's rebellion, for rebellion is precisely what the man is now choosing, so that would mean God overcame his choice and took away his power of self-determination. But how can God save this man unless he act so as to change the man's heart from hard hostility to tender trust?

Will you pray that God enlighten his mind so that he truly see the beauty of Christ and believe? If you pray this, you are in effect asking God no longer to leave the determination of the man's will in his own power. You are asking God to do something within the man's mind (or heart) so that he will surely see and believe. That is, you are conceding that the ultimate determination of the man's decision to trust Christ is God's, not merely his.