Calvinism

[Crazy Liz]

Yah, I have noticed that the Thomists (Thomist comes from Thomas Aquinas) and Calvinists are more similar that I'd originally thought. There are a few things Calvinists accept and Thomists reject, but they do not seem to me as different as you might think. I'm I'm not mistaken though Calvin and Luther disagreed on a lot of issues, even though they both used Augustine as a basis, Luther seems more "Catholic." (LOL I never thought I'd say that!).

Funnny you should note the similarities between Aquinas and Calvin. I was talking to my niece about that over Christmas. She had received a bio of Aquinas by Chesterton, and I had remarked how I wanted to read some Chesterton, but wouldn't pick that. She asked why I would not like Aquinas, given that he is so logical. I told her I thought his logic was like Calvin's - a little too deductive, to the point where it magnified small errors in the basic assumptions, and that both failed to consider a sufficient number of alternatives, so that they often thought they had proven something true when they had only proven it plausible.

 

[theseed]

Funnny you should note the similarities between Aquinas and Calvin. I was talking to my niece about that over Christmas. She had received a bio of Aquinas by Chesterton, and I had remarked how I wanted to read some Chesterton, but wouldn't pick that. She asked why I would not like Aquinas, given that he is so logical. I told her I thought his logic was like Calvin's - a little too deductive, to the point where it magnified small errors in the basic assumptions, and that both failed to consider a sufficient number of alternatives, so that they often thought they had proven something true when they had only proven it plausible.

Oooh, Calvin was a Roman Catholic Priest--I'm pretty sure he knew the alternatives.

 

[theseed]

Yah, I have noticed that the Thomists (Thomist comes from Thomas Aquinas) and Calvinists are more similar that I'd originally thought. There are a few things Calvinists accept and Thomists reject, but they do not seem to me as different as you might think. I'm I'm not mistaken though Calvin and Luther disagreed on a lot of issues, even though they both used Augustine as a basis, Luther seems more "Catholic." (LOL I never thought I'd say that!).

I've read that Luther was afraid of taking his doctrine of total depravity to its logical conclusion--that God choses certain people to be saved.

 

[ps139]

Funnny you should note the similarities between Aquinas and Calvin. I was talking to my niece about that over Christmas. She had received a bio of Aquinas by Chesterton, and I had remarked how I wanted to read some Chesterton, but wouldn't pick that. She asked why I would not like Aquinas, given that he is so logical. I told her I thought his logic was like Calvin's - a little too deductive, to the point where it magnified small errors in the basic assumptions, and that both failed to consider a sufficient number of alternatives, so that they often thought they had proven something true when they had only proven it plausible.

Oh Liz, this is a wonderful book! Even if you do not want to read much about Aquinas, just read it because it is the most interesting bio I've ever read. Chesterton does this bio in a totally unconventional way, and its worth reading just for that. I've never read a bio structured like this one, or as good as this one. Its just so different and excellent. If you want to read some Chesterton and need some other recommendations, PM me, GKC is my favorite author.

 

[ps139]

Good Day, Ps139

Can I copy this to my HDD for future use ??

Peace to u,

Bill

Go for it Bill! The more I read of Luther the more I am surprised!

 

[DiscipleOfIAm]

That's an interesting question. How would/do you explain Calvinist theology to your kids? I would probably not lecture my own kids on the finer points of theology--at least not until they got older.

Hardee Har Har! Please, we all know I, meant to explain in the simplest of terms.

But, since you bring it up, why wouldn't you want to explain theology to your children? Would you rather someone else explain it to them for you? It's your job as a parent to teach your children, not the schools, not your Sunday School, You.

 

[DiscipleOfIAm]

Thanks for all the repsonses everyone! I am sure I'm not a Calvinist, Lutheran, or Protestant. I'm whatever the New Testament Church is, which basically falls under Independent Fundamental Baptist!

But, the confusion is cleared up and thanks to all for all of your indepth research.

God Bless

 

[Crazy Liz]

But, since you bring it up, why wouldn't you want to explain theology to your children? Would you rather someone else explain it to them for you? It's your job as a parent to teach your children, not the schools, not your Sunday School, You.

This is a good question. What do you think about teaching Calvinist theology to children?

I can think of two reasons it might not be appropriate: (1) It is too fatalistic for children. While it may give security to disillusioned middle-aged adults, I think for children it runs counter to the kind of hope they need. It seems to me like it would be a very scary theology to a child who does not yet have any kind of assurance that he or she is among the Elect.

(2) It is based on a type of abstract reasoning children are not capable of before the age of about 12. I would say a child who is not ready for algebra is also not capable of understanding this type of theology. (And perhaps it takes a mind capable of understanding calculus to move beyond it )

I know that the most strongly Calvinist denominations (such as Christian Reformed) put great emphasis on Christian education. Calvin College used to require all its faculty to send their children to Christian schools. I remember reading a few years ago about a faculty member who was fired for sending his children to a public school. I'm not sure I understand this. Maybe it would be a good question to ask in Semper Reformanda. Anyway, I'm curious about how the most staunch Calvinists introduce their children to this theology, and at what age.

 

[Crazy Liz]

Oh Liz, this is a wonderful book! Even if you do not want to read much about Aquinas, just read it because it is the most interesting bio I've ever read. Chesterton does this bio in a totally unconventional way, and its worth reading just for that. I've never read a bio structured like this one, or as good as this one. Its just so different and excellent. If you want to read some Chesterton and need some other recommendations, PM me, GKC is my favorite author.

Thanks for the recommendation. You have piqued my interest.

 

[theseed]

Well, I've already started a thread there.

 

[Crazy Liz]

Well, I've already started a thread there.

Can you post a link?

 

[theseed]

Can you post a link?

It should be on the front page

 

[theseed]

Can you post a link?

http://www.christianforums.com/t1170567-how-do-you-teach-the-doctrines-of-grace-to-children.html

 

[DiscipleOfIAm]

This is a good question. What do you think about teaching Calvinist theology to children?

I can think of two reasons it might not be appropriate: (1) It is too fatalistic for children. While it may give security to disillusioned middle-aged adults, I think for children it runs counter to the kind of hope they need. It seems to me like it would be a very scary theology to a child who does not yet have any kind of assurance that he or she is among the Elect.

(2) It is based on a type of abstract reasoning children are not capable of before the age of about 12. I would say a child who is not ready for algebra is also not capable of understanding this type of theology. (And perhaps it takes a mind capable of understanding calculus to move beyond it )

I know that the most strongly Calvinist denominations (such as Christian Reformed) put great emphasis on Christian education. Calvin College used to require all its faculty to send their children to Christian schools. I remember reading a few years ago about a faculty member who was fired for sending his children to a public school. I'm not sure I understand this. Maybe it would be a good question to ask in Semper Reformanda. Anyway, I'm curious about how the most staunch Calvinists introduce their children to this theology, and at what age.

I wasn't talking about teaching just Calvinsim to children. I was talking about teaching your, the parent's, beliefs to your children. I consider a 12 year old a child.

Obviously, I'm not saying teach your 5 year old anything above their level, but certainly teach them about salvation, faith, your beliefs, etc.

I personally, after having it expalined to me and as stated above, do not believe in Calvinism. And I would only teach my children my beliefs, which are based only what the Bible states. But, certainly teaching at a seminary level to a child is not a good idea! Age appropriate!

God Bless

 

[theseed]

Thanks for all the repsonses everyone! I am sure I'm not a Calvinist, Lutheran, or Protestant. I'm whatever the New Testament Church is, which basically falls under Independent Fundamental Baptist!

But, the confusion is cleared up and thanks to all for all of your indepth research.

God Bless

The problem is that Calvinism is biblical, and if you reject it the you reject The teachings of the NT.

 

[theseed]

1) It is too fatalistic for children. While it may give security to disillusioned middle-aged adults,[/QUOTE]

1)Calvinism is not fatalistic because it depends soley on God's grace

2)The "free will" arguments are fatalistic because they depend on making a person change thier mind. The fate of those who hear the Gospel does not rest ultimately on God, but on the person who's personality/will/intellect is pre-determined by thier circumstances, genetics, and upbringing.

3)On what basis do you conclude that only middle aged adults are Calvinists? And why somebody who is Calvinist be disallusioned? Also, why can't someone become non-Calvnist because they are disallusioned?

I think for children it runs counter to the kind of hope they need. It seems to me like it would be a very scary theology to a child who does not yet have any kind of assurance that he or she is among the Elect.

Calvinism does not teach that you can't know if you elect. You are confusing Calvinism with Hyper-Calvinism.

It is based on a type of abstract reasoning children are not capable of before the age of about 12.

Yes, if you understand it the context of alot of Scripture. However, TULIP is a simplified version that can be unstood on a concrete level. Also, you would begin by teaching the Gospel on a leve they understand, and later teach how it works.

 

[ps139]

Calvinism does not teach that you can't know if you elect. You are confusing Calvinism with Hyper-Calvinism.

What is the difference between Calvinism and hyper-Calvinism.
And would "hyper-Calvinists" call themselves Calvinists, and you a "weaker Calvinist," or do they refer to themselves as "hyper Calvinist"?

 

[DiscipleOfIAm]

The problem is that Calvinism is biblical, and if you reject it the you reject The teachings of the NT.

Does it say in the Bible that if you do not hold the same theology as another, you will go to Hell? If I believe that Calvinism is not Biblical and you believe it is, will one of us go to Hell? If I believe in a literal Hell and someone else doesn't, will one of us find out for sure by going there?

Jesus said no one will come to the Father but by me, not no one will come to the Father unless they believe Calvinism or such and such man interpreted doctrine.

God Bless and I'll see you in Heaven someday whether we agree on Calvinism or not!

 

[theseed]

Does it say in the Bible that if you do not hold the same theology as another, you will go to Hell? If I believe that Calvinism is not Biblical and you believe it is, will one of us go to Hell? If I believe in a literal Hell and someone else doesn't, will one of us find out for sure by going there?

Jesus said no one will come to the Father but by me, not no one will come to the Father unless they believe Calvinism or such and such man interpreted doctrine.

God Bless and I'll see you in Heaven someday whether we agree on Calvinism or not!

Did I say anything about you not being saved?

 

[theseed]

What is the difference between Calvinism and hyper-Calvinism.
And would "hyper-Calvinists" call themselves Calvinists, and you a "weaker Calvinist," or do they refer to themselves as "hyper Calvinist"?

Sometimes, hyper-Calvinists will call Calvnist "hypo-Calvinists" to be sarcastic.

Here is a thread and a website about the subject of Hyper-Calvinism.

What is hyper-calvinism?

http://www.ldolphin.org/common.html (I'm not sure about this website, I think it talks about common grace vs. grace for salvation.

You may also be interested in this thread.
Myths and Misconceptions about Calvinism