Calvinism: Why is it so unpopular on CF?

[I <3 Abraham]

Well Abe....
Have you come to a conclusion about your original question? I for one am thoroughly impressed with your wide and well-read intellect, so I would place great value in your opinion on the matter of the unpopularity of sound biblical theology (you call it calvinism, I believe) among the full- and semi-pelagians, mysticists (some call them charismatics), and self-worshippers (some call arminians) that populate other areas of this forum.

Now, I say well-read assuming that you really have read all the authors you list, and it comes to me now that perhaps I assume too much. If I have, please forgive me, it just seemed in your deleted post that you were inferring that, which is why I was so impressed. I would hate to think you were simply trying to impress without really having consumed and digested all that stunning array of literary giants. I'm sure you wouldn't do that.

You're right! I wouldn't do that. But seriously, not only that short list, but these guys too. I took the liberty of highlighting a few of my favorites.

FRESHMAN YEAR​

• HOMER: Iliad, Odyssey​
• AESCHYLUS: Agamemnon, Libation Bearers, Eumenides, Prometheus Bound​
• SOPHOCLES: Oedipus Rex, Oedipus at Colonus, Antigone, Philoctetes​
• THUCYDIDES: Peloponnesian War​
• EURIPIDES: Hippolytus, Bacchae​
• HERODOTUS: Histories ​
• ARISTOPHANES: Clouds​
• PLATO: Meno, Gorgias, Republic, Apology, Crito, Phaedo, Symposium, Parmenides, Theatetus, Sophist, Timaeus, Phaedrus​
• ARISTOTLE: Poetics, Physics, Metaphysics, Nicomachean Ethics, On Generation and Corruption, Politics, Parts of Animals, Generation of Animals​
• EUCLID: Elements​
• LUCRETIUS: On the Nature of Things​
• PLUTARCH: Lycurgus, Solon​
• NICOMACHUS: Arithmetic​
• LAVOISIER: Elements of Chemistry​
• HARVEY: Motion of the Heart and Blood​
• Essays by: Archimedes, Fahrenheit, Avogadro, Dalton, Cannizzaro, Virchow, Mariotte, Driesch, Gay-Lussac, Spemann, Stears, J.J. Thompson, Mendeleyev, Berthollet, J.L. Proust​

top​

SOPHOMORE YEAR

• THE BIBLE​
• ARISTOTLE: De Anima, On Interpretation, Prior Analytics, Categories​
• APOLLONIUS: Conics​
• VIRGIL: Aeneid​
• PLUTARCH: "Caesar" and "Cato the Younger"​
• EPICTETUS: Discourses, Manual​
• TACITUS: Annals​
• PTOLEMY: Almagest​
• PLOTINUS: The Enneads​
• AUGUSTINE: Confessions​
• ST. ANSELM: Proslogium​
• AQUINAS: Summa Theologica, Summa Contra Gentiles​
• DANTE: Divine Comedy​
• CHAUCER: Canterbury Tales​
• DES PREZ: Mass​
• MACHIAVELLI: The Prince, Discourses​
• COPERNICUS: On the Revolutions of the Spheres​
• LUTHER: The Freedom of a Christian​
• RABELAIS: Gargantua and Pantagruel​
• PALESTRINA: Missa Papae Marcelli​
• MONTAIGNE: Essays​
• VIETE: "Introduction to the Analytical Art"​
• BACON: Novum Organum​
• SHAKESPEARE: Richard II, Henry IV, Henry V, The Tempest, As You Like It, Hamlet, Othello, Macbeth, King Lear, Coriolanus, Sonnets​
• POEMS BY: Marvell, Donne, and other 16th- and 17th-century poets​
• DESCARTES: Geometry, Discourse on Method​
• PASCAL: Generation of Conic Sections​
• BACH: St. Matthew Passion, Inventions​
• HAYDN: Quartets​
• MOZART: Operas​
• BEETHOVEN: Sonatas​
• SCHUBERT: Songs​
• STRAVINSKY: Symphony of Psalms​

top

JUNIOR YEAR​

• CERVANTES: Don Quixote​
• GALILEO: Two New Sciences​
• DESCARTES: Meditations, Rules for the Direction of the Mind​
• MILTON: Paradise Lost​
• LA ROCHEFOUCAULD: Maximes​
• LA FONTAINE: Fables​
• PASCAL: Pensees​
• HUYGENS: Treatise on Light, On the Movement of Bodies by Impact​
• ELIOT: Middlemarch​
• SPINOZA: Theological-Political Treatise​
• LOCKE: Second Treatise of Government​
• RACINE: Phaedre​
• NEWTON: Principia Mathematica​
• KEPLER: Epitome IV​
• LEIBNIZ: Monadology, Discourse on Metaphysics, Essay On Dynamics, Philosophical Essays, Principles of Nature and Grace​
• SWIFT: Gulliver's Travels​
• HUME: Treatise of Human Nature​
• ROUSSEAU: Social Contract, The Origin of Inequality​
• MOLIERE: The Misanthrope​
• ADAM SMITH: Wealth of Nations​
• KANT: Critique of Pure Reason, Foundations of the Metaphysics of Morals​
• MOZART: Don Giovanni​
• JANE AUSTEN: Pride and Prejudice​
• DEDEKIND: "Essay on the Theory of Numbers"​

top

SENIOR YEAR​

• Declaration of Independence​
• The Constitution of the United States​
• Supreme Court opinions​
• HAMILTON, JAY, AND MADISON: The Federalist Papers​
• DARWIN: Origin of Species​
• HEGEL: Phenomenology of Mind, "Logic" (from the Encyclopedia)​
• LOBACHEVSKY: Theory of Parallels​
• TOCQUEVILLE: Democracy in America​
• LINCOLN: Selected Speeches​
• KIERKEGAARD: Philosophical Fragments, Fear and Trembling​
• MARX: Capital, Political and Economic Manuscripts of 1844, The German Ideology​
• DOSTOEVSKI: Brothers Karamazov​
• TOLSTOY: War and Peace​
• MELVILLE: Benito Cereno​
• TWAIN: The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn​
• O'CONNOR: Selected Stories​
• FREUD: General Introduction to Psychoanalysis​
• WASHINGTON, BOOKER T.: Selected Writings​
• DUBOIS: The Souls of Black Folk​
• HEIDEGGER: What is Philosophy?​
• HEISENBERG: The Physical Principles of the Quantum Theory​
• MILLIKAN: The Electron​
• CONRAD: Heart of Darkness​
• Essays by: Faraday, J.J. Thomson, Mendel, Minkowski, Rutherford, Davisson, Schrodinger, Bohr, Maxwell, de Broigle, Dreisch, Orsted, Ampere, Boveri, Sutton, Morgan, Beadle & Tatum, Sussman, Watson & Crick, Jacob & Monod, Hardy​

Edit to add: I don't know how I forgot to highlight Kant, he's the man.​

 

[bradfordl]

You're right! I wouldn't do that. But seriously, not only that short list, but these guys too. I took the liberty of highlighting a few of my favorites.

FRESHMAN YEAR​

• HOMER: Iliad, Odyssey​
• AESCHYLUS: Agamemnon, Libation Bearers, Eumenides, Prometheus Bound​
• SOPHOCLES: Oedipus Rex, Oedipus at Colonus, Antigone, Philoctetes​
• THUCYDIDES: Peloponnesian War​
• EURIPIDES: Hippolytus, Bacchae​
• HERODOTUS: Histories ​
• ARISTOPHANES: Clouds​
• PLATO: Meno, Gorgias, Republic, Apology, Crito, Phaedo, Symposium, Parmenides, Theatetus, Sophist, Timaeus, Phaedrus​
• ARISTOTLE: Poetics, Physics, Metaphysics, Nicomachean Ethics, On Generation and Corruption, Politics, Parts of Animals, Generation of Animals​
• EUCLID: Elements​
• LUCRETIUS: On the Nature of Things​
• PLUTARCH: Lycurgus, Solon​
• NICOMACHUS: Arithmetic​
• LAVOISIER: Elements of Chemistry​
• HARVEY: Motion of the Heart and Blood​
• Essays by: Archimedes, Fahrenheit, Avogadro, Dalton, Cannizzaro, Virchow, Mariotte, Driesch, Gay-Lussac, Spemann, Stears, J.J. Thompson, Mendeleyev, Berthollet, J.L. Proust​

top​

SOPHOMORE YEAR

• THE BIBLE​
• ARISTOTLE: De Anima, On Interpretation, Prior Analytics, Categories​
• APOLLONIUS: Conics​
• VIRGIL: Aeneid​
• PLUTARCH: "Caesar" and "Cato the Younger"​
• EPICTETUS: Discourses, Manual​
• TACITUS: Annals​
• PTOLEMY: Almagest​
• PLOTINUS: The Enneads​
• AUGUSTINE: Confessions​
• ST. ANSELM: Proslogium​
• AQUINAS: Summa Theologica, Summa Contra Gentiles​
• DANTE: Divine Comedy​
• CHAUCER: Canterbury Tales​
• DES PREZ: Mass​
• MACHIAVELLI: The Prince, Discourses​
• COPERNICUS: On the Revolutions of the Spheres​
• LUTHER: The Freedom of a Christian​
• RABELAIS: Gargantua and Pantagruel​
• PALESTRINA: Missa Papae Marcelli​
• MONTAIGNE: Essays​
• VIETE: "Introduction to the Analytical Art"​
• BACON: Novum Organum​
• SHAKESPEARE: Richard II, Henry IV, Henry V, The Tempest, As You Like It, Hamlet, Othello, Macbeth, King Lear, Coriolanus, Sonnets​
• POEMS BY: Marvell, Donne, and other 16th- and 17th-century poets​
• DESCARTES: Geometry, Discourse on Method​
• PASCAL: Generation of Conic Sections​
• BACH: St. Matthew Passion, Inventions​
• HAYDN: Quartets​
• MOZART: Operas​
• BEETHOVEN: Sonatas​
• SCHUBERT: Songs​
• STRAVINSKY: Symphony of Psalms​

top

JUNIOR YEAR​

• CERVANTES: Don Quixote​
• GALILEO: Two New Sciences​
• DESCARTES: Meditations, Rules for the Direction of the Mind​
• MILTON: Paradise Lost​
• LA ROCHEFOUCAULD: Maximes​
• LA FONTAINE: Fables​
• PASCAL: Pensees​
• HUYGENS: Treatise on Light, On the Movement of Bodies by Impact​
• ELIOT: Middlemarch​
• SPINOZA: Theological-Political Treatise​
• LOCKE: Second Treatise of Government​
• RACINE: Phaedre​
• NEWTON: Principia Mathematica​
• KEPLER: Epitome IV​
• LEIBNIZ: Monadology, Discourse on Metaphysics, Essay On Dynamics, Philosophical Essays, Principles of Nature and Grace​
• SWIFT: Gulliver's Travels​
• HUME: Treatise of Human Nature​
• ROUSSEAU: Social Contract, The Origin of Inequality​
• MOLIERE: The Misanthrope​
• ADAM SMITH: Wealth of Nations​
• KANT: Critique of Pure Reason, Foundations of the Metaphysics of Morals​
• MOZART: Don Giovanni​
• JANE AUSTEN: Pride and Prejudice​
• DEDEKIND: "Essay on the Theory of Numbers"​

top

SENIOR YEAR​

• Declaration of Independence​
• The Constitution of the United States​
• Supreme Court opinions​
• HAMILTON, JAY, AND MADISON: The Federalist Papers​
• DARWIN: Origin of Species​
• HEGEL: Phenomenology of Mind, "Logic" (from the Encyclopedia)​
• LOBACHEVSKY: Theory of Parallels​
• TOCQUEVILLE: Democracy in America​
• LINCOLN: Selected Speeches​
• KIERKEGAARD: Philosophical Fragments, Fear and Trembling​
• MARX: Capital, Political and Economic Manuscripts of 1844, The German Ideology​
• DOSTOEVSKI: Brothers Karamazov​
• TOLSTOY: War and Peace​
• MELVILLE: Benito Cereno​
• TWAIN: The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn​
• O'CONNOR: Selected Stories​
• FREUD: General Introduction to Psychoanalysis​
• WASHINGTON, BOOKER T.: Selected Writings​
• DUBOIS: The Souls of Black Folk​
• HEIDEGGER: What is Philosophy?​
• HEISENBERG: The Physical Principles of the Quantum Theory​
• MILLIKAN: The Electron​
• CONRAD: Heart of Darkness​
• Essays by: Faraday, J.J. Thomson, Mendel, Minkowski, Rutherford, Davisson, Schrodinger, Bohr, Maxwell, de Broigle, Dreisch, Orsted, Ampere, Boveri, Sutton, Morgan, Beadle & Tatum, Sussman, Watson & Crick, Jacob & Monod, Hardy​

Edit to add: I don't know how I forgot to highlight Kant, he's the man.​

Well now that we've been given a display of your resplendent credentials, and stand shuddering before the immensity of your intellect, have you come to any conclusion as to your original question?

Sorry to interrupt the trumpet blasts, but that was really all I wanted to know...if you can find some time between posting CV's, thanks.

 

[Rick Otto]

That's almost a hundred books in 4yrs!
We're talking heavy potatoes, not Reader's Digest...
do you keep your eyeballs in a jar on the nightstand?
Did you lose half your hair, or did it turn white?
Are you hunch-backed from carryin' 'em all?
That would've made scrambled eggs of my grey matter.
I imagine extra-curricular activities were necessary to dissipate any brain fixations that that regimen induced!
Are you still able to engage in "small-talk"?

 

[geelee]

That is a most impressive list, people. Don't show your green colours. The man must have had a 4 year long headache. I would have had one, and i consider myself lover of reading.

So, what did these books teach you?

UMD: Thanx for that. I am taking it home with me to read later.

 

[mlqurgw]

That is a most impressive list, people. Don't show your green colours. The man must have had a 4 year long headache. I would have had one, and i consider myself lover of reading.

So, what did these books teach you?

UMD: Thanx for that. I am taking it home with me to read later.

The list is impressive to say the least but I must admit that it came across to me as extremely arrogant. I do not envy the poster at all.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

I do not envy the poster at all.
i would love to have had the time and desire to read these when i was young.
at university i only had time to study biology, philosophy and electrical-computer engineering, there wasn't time for catching up on the past greats.

does anyone here keep a reading journal?
or consistently write reviews of what they read?
if there is interest we can start another thread on the topic.

 

[nill]

Notice:

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|
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• MOZART: Don Giovanni​
• JANE AUSTEN: Pride and Prejudice​
• DEDEKIND: "Essay on the Theory of Numbers"​

***top***

SENIOR YEAR​

• Declaration​

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|
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"top" = from a website, which he copied and pasted from his college. They're not merely books that he was able to accomplish for leisure reading in those school years--they're books he and several other people were required to read.

That said, that's still a crazy lot of books that you would supposedly have read. Just because I don't read that much doesn't mean you don't devour books.

And what exactly do you mean that you've "read" Beethoven's sonatas and Bach's Inventions? They don't have words.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

how to argue the issues and not the person.

online, with it's lack of external clues, poses interesting problems for understanding and 'rating' people's arguments.

for instance, the above. i have no problem making a little mental note: person X claims to have read Y, Y is found to be the list of great books to read for st john's college. and then just tuck the note aside.

the evidence of things being true, can be a statement, i read and understood all those books, or more importantly a series of posting over weeks or months or more that show a depth of understanding, a commitment to a classical education way of looking at the world, a maturity, that reflects having read and understood these books. for after all isn't that the point of the curiculum?

OTOH, i've notes that person V claimed to have an advanced degree in W. a few days later V asks a question that betrays a misunderstanding at the freshman level of W, i don't need to challenge V to a metaphorical duel, all i have to do is mentally record the evidence. V really doesn't understand W and discount the previous claim.

it takes time and effort. but really seems to work if you stick to a few discussion places and a few forums.

 

[Tetzel]

Love accepts people for who they are.

for or in spite of?

 

[Rick Otto]

I thought love spanks people for not being whom they should be!

God forgive me, I am a reflexive envier. I even make up reasons to envy people!

Good thoughts, rm.
Thanks.

 

[5pointCalvinist]

I think the reason why people have a distaste for Calvinism is because they misunderstand and also the fact that people are often caught up in man-centered philosophies. The natural man is opposed to God and no one seeks after God according to Romans. Some people think that Calvinists believe in double predestination or hyper- Calvinism, which they don't.

If this doesn't make sense I'm sorry, because I am very tired now and am running on three hours of sleep.

 

[nill]

==========
I am very tired now and am running on three hours of sleep.
==========


No kidding! Same here! Except I'm waiting for stupid Windows update to finish so I can shut my computer down and go to bed!!!

 

[inchristalone221]

Some people think that Calvinists believe in double predestination ... which they don't.

Speak for yourself eh

 

[rmwilliamsll]

think that Calvinists believe in double predestination or hyper- Calvinism, which they don't.


this is a problematic statement.
for both Luther and Calvin plainly taught "double predestination", that is God foreordains both the elect and the reprobate.

hyper calvinism is one of those words that are often misused, hooked as it is here with double predestination, i suspect it is being misused, again.

so you will have to elaborate to see how you are using these two ideas. at first glance, the statement is not correct.

 

[bradfordl]

I have never understood how anyone that acknowledges the absolute sovereignty of God could ever deny double predestination or equal ultimacy. So, He's sovereign over the salvation of the elect, but not the damnation of the unregenerate? That is not at all logical, and appears to me to be a futile and frustrated attempt to "pretty up" God to conform to human ideals of "fairness". Nothing...ABSOLUTELY nothing....has, is or ever will happen that is not entirely and precisely planned by God. Otherwise any single thing that did would have authority over God, which is not possible. Why is that difficult to swallow by those who call themselves Christian, much less reformed or calvinist?

 

[inchristalone221]

I have never understood how anyone that acknowledges the absolute sovereignty of God could ever deny double predestination or equal ultimacy. So, He's sovereign over the salvation of the elect, but not the damnation of the unregenerate? That is not at all logical, and appears to me to be a futile and frustrated attempt to "pretty up" God to conform to human ideals of "fairness". Nothing...ABSOLUTELY nothing....has, is or ever will happen that is not entirely and precisely planned by God. Otherwise any single thing that did would have authority over God, which is not possible. Why is that difficult to swallow by those who call themselves Christian, much less reformed or calvinist?

"Over all His creatures He is sovereign, and He does for them and to them all that He so desires" --London Baptist Confession (quoted from memory, so maybe not exact wording)

Something I always do when talking with Arminians is make sure to give them this nugget to think on: "Your God is too small."

 

[Rick Otto]

I don' unnerstan' how, but it's probably a control issue. Most of us are like spiritual two year olds, still tryin' to wrap our heads around the idea that instant gratification is not a universal constant operating principle... or maybe it's just ME!

But I don't double deny.

 

[McWilliams]

'Because they want to be God, thats why!' (Dr. Tom Schreiner)

 

[heymikey80]

I took the liberty of highlighting a few of my favorites.

Didn't like Luther, eh? Bummer! (Btw, Kant may be the man, but I rarely get much out of his page-long sentences!)

We first approach the subject of the inward man, that we may see by what means a man becomes justified, free, and a true Christian; that is, a spiritual, new, and inward man. It is certain that absolutely none among outward things, under whatever name they may be reckoned, has any influence in producing Christian righteousness or liberty, nor, on the other hand, unrighteousness or slavery. This can be shown by an easy argument.

What can it profit the soul that the body should be in good condition, free, and full of life; that it should eat, drink, and act according to its pleasure; when even the most impious slaves of every kind of vice are prosperous in these matters? Again, what harm can ill health, bondage, hunger, thirst, or any other outward evil, do to the soul, when even the most pious of men, and the freest in the purity of their conscience, are harassed by these things? Neither of these states of things has to do with the liberty or the slavery of the soul.

And so it will profit nothing that the body should be adorned with sacred vestments, or dwell in holy places, or be occupied in sacred offices, or pray, fast, and abstain from certain meats, or do whatever works can be done through the body and in the body. Something widely different will be necessary for the justification and liberty of the soul, since the things I have spoken of can be done by any impious person, and only hypocrites are produced by devotion to these things. On the other hand, it will not at all injure the soul that the body should be clothed in secular clothing, should dwell in secular places, should eat and drink in the ordinary fashion, should not pray aloud, and should leave undone all the things above mentioned, which may be done by hypocrites.

And, to cast everything aside, even speculations, meditations, and whatever things can be performed by the exertions of the soul itself, are of no profit. One thing, and one alone, is necessary for life, justification, and Christian liberty; and that is the most holy word of God, the Gospel of Christ.​

 

[MrsGwaihir]

the short of it is...
Total Depravity - human beings do not like to think of natural man(without God) as wicked or evil...
Unconditional Election - human beings don't like the idea that God chose some not all
Limited atonement (Particular Redemption)- human beings do not like the idea of the election
Irrestible Grace - human beings like to think they have a say in the matter and that it is their choice to follow Christ
Perserverance of the Saints - Human beings believe that a peron has the ability to jump out of God's hand once they have surrendered to Him through Christ.