Calvinism: Why is it so unpopular on CF?

[Nadiine]

I always find it interesting that there are Christians that do not believe they are saved by mercy or grace, they are saved because they deserved it . They were smarter , more clever, holier and more worthy than the lost . God "owed it to them " for making a correct choice.

Easter is the holiday that allows us to save ourselves.The cross saved no one .Not much to celebrate there ???

Well, there isn't anywhere in the Bible that you'll find that God's people become PERFECT AND ALL-KNOWING the moment they accept Salvation.
It's a life-long process of God patiently working in and thru us as we go along.

In fact, the Bible gives many examples of God's people doing wrong or messing up. We've got all kinds of accounts of Godly men & women & who had problems and shortcomings of all kinds.

I agree w/ you in one way that I'm a little dismayed at the messed up theology Christian's are seeming to display anymore. I run across it more and more, unfortunately (and others no doubt, include ME in that pile lol )

But I happen to believe that many who may CLAIM to be of God, may not even KNOW Him at all.
Mat. 7:21-23
I'm running across more "Christians" these days that reject some very serious mandates of the Christian faith.
So keep in mind that not everyone who claims to be a Christian, IS ONE....

And let's not forget that God tells us that the tares are to remain with the Wheat (His people) until harvest time.
There are many non Christians "in the church" and they will remain there until God separates them.

But what MATTERS isn't so much what people do (in ignorance or sin, BUT WHAT GOD SAYS TO DO.
Just because Christians fail, come short of your expections of them or are wrong, doesn't mean GOD isn't who He said He is or His word isn't true!
IT MEANS PEOPLE AREN'T GOD AND CAN'T COME CLOSE TO PERFECTION.

And as a born again believer, I'M THANKFUL THAT HE ACCEPTS ME despite myself!!
And died for me when I was a rebellious snot for so many years. None of us deserve what He's done for us.

When you DO meet a perfect Christian, do me a favor and let me know, I'd LOVE to meet them & get a few pointers!!

 

[holeinone]

Dear McWilliams,

Yes, I have read Mr Pink's book in full and was appalled at the defamation of my God...

I am sure you can understand that Calvinists are appalled by the nature of God that is taught by many of the churches today.

He is a god without power or purpose simply waiting for men to make a move so He knows what to do next.

'As I live,' says the LORD God, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. . . Ezekiel 33:11

Indeed this is true. The call to repent and believe is a COMMAND given to all men.

God has also revealed Himself to all men .
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:


God will never turn away anyone that responds to those commands.

But the question is WHO will CHOOSE to respond?

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.



Proverbs 16:1 The preparations of the heart belong to man, But the answer of the tongue is from the LORD.
Proverbs 16:9 A man's heart plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.

Proverbs 19:21 There are many plans in a man's heart, Nevertheless the Lord's counsel; that will stand.

Proverbs 20:24 A man's steps are of the LORD; How then can a man understand his own way?


Romans 11:5-10 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

8 Just as it is written: "God has given them a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see And ears that they should not hear, To this very day."
9 And David says: "Let their table become a snare and a trap, A stumbling block and a recompense to them.

10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see, and bow down their back always."

John 12:37-41 But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him,

38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke: "Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?"
39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:
40 "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them."
41 These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him.

 

[Nadiine]

Just a little correction of my post below,

I read Holeinone's post wrongly, I thought holeinone was a skeptic that was pointing at Christians in error... and that the clause about Easter & the cross saving no one was the Signature (with that cute counting sheep animation lol).

​

As I read it back over, I understand how it's meant.

MY BAD. oopsy

 

[holeinone]

Well, there isn't anywhere in the Bible that you'll find that God's people become PERFECT AND ALL-KNOWING the moment they accept Salvation.
It's a life-long process of God patiently working in and thru us as we go along.

Sanctification is an ongoing process, we still live in a fallen world

In fact, the Bible gives many examples of God's people doing wrong or messing up. We've got all kinds of accounts of Godly men & women & who had problems and shortcomings of all kinds.

I love that God shows us all the warts and bumps on His people. This can help us not to become discouraged when we fall short.

Pro 24:16 For a just [man] falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.

I agree w/ you in one way that I'm a little dismayed at the messed up theology Christian's are seeming to display anymore. I run across it more and more, unfortunately (and others no doubt, include ME in that pile lol )

But I happen to believe that many who may CLAIM to be of God, may not even KNOW Him at all.
Mat. 7:21-23
I'm running across more "Christians" these days that reject some very serious mandates of the Christian faith.
So keep in mind that not everyone who claims to be a Christian, IS ONE....

Indeed our churches are full of both wheat and tares. Tares look like wheat when they start to grow, that is why they were placed in the field in the scripture.
It is not until they start to grow differently that it can be seen

And let's not forget that God tells us that the tares are to remain with the Wheat (His people) until harvest time.
There are many non Christians "in the church" and they will remain there until God separates them.

But what MATTERS isn't so much what people do (in ignorance or sin, BUT WHAT GOD SAYS TO DO.
Just because Christians fail, come short of your expections of them or are wrong, doesn't mean GOD isn't who He said He is or His word isn't true!
IT MEANS PEOPLE AREN'T GOD AND CAN'T COME CLOSE TO PERFECTION.

And as a born again believer, I'M THANKFUL THAT HE ACCEPTS ME despite myself!!
And died for me when I was a rebellious snot for so many years. None of us deserve what He's done for us.

When you DO meet a perfect Christian, do me a favor and let me know, I'd LOVE to meet them & get a few pointers!!

I always say IN SPITE of who I am.
Christ did not come for the "perfect" He came for sinners in need of a Savior.

 

[inchristalone221]

Oh I like this one better (sorry for not crediting the author, I forgot his name):

Arminian "grace!" How strange the sound,
Salvation hinged on me.
I once was lost then turned around,
Was blind then chose to see. What "grace" is it that calls for choice,
Made from some good within?
That part that wills to heed God's voice,
Proved stronger than my sin.
Thru many ardent gospel pleas,
I sat with heart of stone.
But then some hidden good in me,
Propelled me toward my home.
When we've been there ten thousand years,
Because of what we've done,
We've no less days to sing our praise,
Than when we first begun.

 

[Nadiine]

I am sure you can understand that Calvinists are appalled by the nature of God that is taught by many of the churches today.

He is a god without power or purpose simply waiting for men to make a move so He knows what to do next.

AMEN!
I wanted to elaborate on your EXCELLENT point --
I think I'll rep you on it but since I just joined a few days ago, I doubt it'll boost your number any.

Today's Christians are being MISTAUGHT by most mainstream churches today. Just waltz into any Christian Bookstores and you'll see the problem.
So it's no wonder new converts believe that
"GOD IS LUCKY IF THEY CHOOSE HIM!!!"

People are literally being BEGGED to "accept Jesus". As if God is some pauper, peddling His wares - begging people to buy from Him. INDEBTED TO THEM & needing them as if He's gravelling for followers.

It's no wonder that a feeling of speciality and pride/ arrogance would follow from that~!
(PLEASE don't think I'm implying that God does NOT Love us deeply. In context, I'm speaking to IMBALANCE; when His Love is not correctly balanced w/ His other attributes).

This is an absolute crisis in the USA. God is stripped of His power (oh, other than providing man BLESSINGS if you chant the right mantra like Jabez did), His justice and His Holiness because today's 'mainstream Christian' just doesn't conceive how a "loving God" could send anyone to hell...
(additionally, if you don't agree with something the bible teaches, you don't have to! God and bible principles become a food court you can just pick things ala carte'; just pick out what you like & whatever you dislike or doesn't seem to fit your ideal of God, just leave on the shelf: BIBLE BUFFET)
But that's ALL OK, "God Loves you".

Today, many of the Christian leaders have compromised the TRUTH of God's word (as it plainly teaches) in exchange for a bigger congregation, money and/or popularity. (I thank God there are still many good ones that God - they're becoming a REMNANT anymore in this country.)

I know one in particular on tv right now who has a GIGANTIC following right now but IMO has sold his very soul who barely gives ANY scripture anymore (& what is used is often twisted out of context or misapplied entirely) and everything is about how we FEEL w/ secular philosophy.
It is TRAGIC.

But I EQUALLY blame the masses - they go to hear what they CHOOSE TO HEAR.

The problem is also in the people who don't want to hear truth of who GOD really is, His mission, and His purpose!
Their focus is "how to live everyday life down here in the most comfort with God's blessings". They FUEL the fire for the compromising Teachers.

This is probably a LARGE reason why we're seeing the high numbers of unbalanced & 'liberal' "Christians" (term used loosely) who strip God of His true identity, power, authority, holiness and absolute Sovereignty.

I mite start a topic about this somewhere (but it's probly already covered elsewhere).

LET GOD BE TRUE, AND EVERY MAN THE LIAR.

 

[Jacquo]

WOW:o

A proponent of synergism who admits that we are saved because we are somehow smarter/better/more lovable than the reprobate!

I have bookmarked this page!

Thanks for being intellectually honest.

Wrong, but honest!

Dear Michael,

Please note my post 192 preceding yours (196)

Regards,

Jac

 

[Jacquo]

Hint!

The word in Matthew 22:14 is ekletos (Strongs 1588), an adjective, and per the very definition means picked out or chosen. Find a single credible NT lexicon which gives the translation of the word as you have made up. How many credible Bibles translate it "fit for it?" The only one I can find that remotely comes close is the Message Bible, which can only loosely be called a translation. There goes your charge of mis-translation.

BTW, even if we go with your "translation" fit for it you must still contend with the fact that man is NOT the one doing the action. That would be God. And that would mean that your "translation"/ interpretation God is doing nothing more than picking for himself those who are already fit for him, i.e. nothing but pure works based salvation.

Why do people hate Calvinism? We are always there to stand up and point out that meritorious human works are nothing but filthy rags, offensive in the eyes of God.

Sola Gratia
Sola Fide

Recognize that all true Christians will be Calvinists in glory....

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist​

Woody.​

Dear Woody,

At least I need to commend you for looking up what respources you had to hand to check out eklektos.

However if you read my post 190 preceding yours of 195 you would have full access to the research I mention.

You will not find it in Lexicons because the authors of these have not checked as I have every place where the word is found in the Septuagint: the bible Jesus and the apostles quoted from. It's use can be verified by comparing the Hebrew word the writers of the Septuagint translated it from in the approriate verses in our bibles. Thus is revealed the meaning.

In a sense it is a kind of sola scriptura research by-passing the - in this case - inaccurate and incorrect lexicons (very rare for Strongs btw).

Regards,

Jac

 

[Jacquo]

I am sure you can understand that Calvinists are appalled by the nature of God that is taught by many of the churches today.

He is a god without power or purpose simply waiting for men to make a move so He knows what to do next.



Indeed this is true. The call to repent and believe is a COMMAND given to all men.

God has also revealed Himself to all men .
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:


God will never turn away anyone that responds to those commands.

But the question is WHO will CHOOSE to respond?

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.



Proverbs 16:1 The preparations of the heart belong to man, But the answer of the tongue is from the LORD.
Proverbs 16:9 A man's heart plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.

Proverbs 19:21 There are many plans in a man's heart, Nevertheless the Lord's counsel; that will stand.

Proverbs 20:24 A man's steps are of the LORD; How then can a man understand his own way?


Romans 11:5-10 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

8 Just as it is written: "God has given them a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see And ears that they should not hear, To this very day."
9 And David says: "Let their table become a snare and a trap, A stumbling block and a recompense to them.

10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see, and bow down their back always."

John 12:37-41 But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him,

38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke: "Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?"
39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:
40 "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them."
41 These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him.

Dear holeinone,

Strange how you apppear to wholly omit the fact that Ezekiel 33:11 is explicit about God having no pleasure in the death of the wicked.

He has and had no plans for them to be lost. That is the clear implication.

Regards,

Jac

 

[Jacquo]

Dear McWilliams,

Allow me to change my tack on Mr Pink's teaching of God's sovereignty by asking a question:

The scripture by the words of Samuel makes clear that God intended to make Saul king - the king He chose – for ever (his kingdom).

“For now the LORD would have established your kingdom over Israel for ever. But now your kingdom shall not continue.”

1 Samuel 13:13

Is that true?

Regards,

Jac

Unless otherwise stated Bible quotes are from the New King James Version.
© copyright Thomas Nelson Inc. 1979,1980,1982.

 

[mlqurgw]

Dear Woody,

At least I need to commend you for looking up what respources you had to hand to check out eklektos.

However if you read my post 190 preceding yours of 195 you would have full access to the research I mention.

You will not find it in Lexicons because the authors of these have not checked as I have every place where the word is found in the Septuagint: the bible Jesus and the apostles quoted from. It's use can be verified by comparing the Hebrew word the writers of the Septuagint translated it from in the approriate verses in our bibles. Thus is revealed the meaning.

In a sense it is a kind of sola scriptura research by-passing the - in this case - inaccurate and incorrect lexicons (very rare for Strongs btw).

Regards,

Jac

First of all let me remind you that this is the ask a Calvinist room not the debate a Calvinist room. Second you present nothing new. I guess you have done a better job than centuries of those who have hated the truth of God and tried to discredit it. When you become a Greek scholar then maybe you will be listened to.

 

[bradfordl]

So Jacquo, you believe that God is moving through the same time as we are, hoping for particular outcomes but never certain of their fulfillment? Things come about that surprise Him or thwart His plan? Are His prophecies just educated guesses contingent upon the decisions of men?

You and old Pelagius have a lot in common if you believe those things.

Funny how men want to foist on God their own limitations. All of space, time, matter and energy are THINGS created by Him, and therefore not limitations upon Him. That you have difficulty concieving of such things is no justification for escewing them and trying to conform Him to your own linear restrictions. He knows the future because He made it, it's not unfolding before Him as it does us. Sounds like the open theology heresy. Why do you find yourself so reluctant to accept that God fully sovereign over all of existence? Wanting to wrest a little control for yourself? Won't work, no matter how you try to twist scripture to fit your paradigm.

Open theology, or the idea that God is moving through and limited by time, that events can surprise Him is not only unscriptural, it is plainly illogical. A Being capable of holding all that exists together in such astounding balance and complexity cannot be surprised by anything, all things that happen must be in His perfect and precise plan, your yearning for some measure of autonomy notwithstanding. Just because it"feels" like you have some control, or free will, does not mean it is so. My dog thinks he owns me because I let him out when he whines at the door. What he thinks is irrelavent, he can only see things from a dog's perspective. I would venture to say our perspective is a tad more limited in relation to God's than my dog's is to mine. Is that a difficult concept to swallow for you?

 

[I <3 Abraham]

First of all let me remind you that this is the ask a Calvinist room not the debate a Calvinist room. Second you present nothing new. I guess you have done a better job than centuries of those who have hated the truth of God and tried to discredit it. When you become a Greek scholar then maybe you will be listened to.

Jeez man, rude much?

That guy's post was cordial to everybody except dead lexicographers, which I'm pretty sure you're not.

I think you should apologize. If you don't I'm going to exercise my discretion as the OP and have this thread shut down.

 

[mlqurgw]

Jeez man, rude much?

That guy's post was cordial to everybody except dead lexicographers, which I'm pretty sure you're not.

I think you should apologize. If you don't I'm going to exercise my discretion as the OP and have this thread shut down.

No apology forthcoming. None is required for simply pointing out truth. But if you would rather the thread stay open I will post no more in it. I do desire that those who have legitimate questions answered have a means for it but for someone to come in and speak as though they know more than others displays arrogance. Sometimes it needs to be dealt with strongly. That is all I did. It is your thread and you may do as you wish.

 

[Rick Otto]

"Ok Rick thank you for responding, perhaps the following is more question like?

My question is why is scripture used out of context by Calvinists to make TULIP stand up?

Or, why is there an insistence on mis-translated passages to make proof texts by Calvinists?

For example the majority of places where the Greek word eklektos is found in the Septuagint shows by looking at our Hebrew translated counterparts that the meaning is of quality: fit for purpose.

So that when Jesus said "Many are called few eklektos"
the meaning is NOT chosen or elect, but fit for it/quality/up to it.

Why are Calvinitst so reliant on mis-translations and passages out of context?

Regards,

Jac"

>Jaq,
surely you jest!
You go to the trouble of website & publication to make your point, & then you drop a rhetoric bomb like that "question"?
The pretext of the question (when posited in this forum)pre-empts serious consideration as anything but polemic.

"Why are non-Calvinists so ignorant of translations and such contortionists with context?" would be an equaly useful question, no?


What is the basic difference between "chosen or elect" and "fit for it/quality/up to it"?
What would be the point of contention between Calvinists & others is how they got to be "chosen or elect" and "fit for it/quality/up to it" - not that they were either.
Do you want to exchange rhetoric or discuss ideas?

 

[McWilliams]

Dear McWilliams,

Allow me to change my tack on Mr Pink's teaching of God's sovereignty by asking a question:

The scripture by the words of Samuel makes clear that God intended to make Saul king - the king He chose – for ever (his kingdom).

1 Samuel 13:13

Is that true?

Regards,

Jac

Unless otherwise stated Bible quotes are from the New King James Version.
© copyright Thomas Nelson Inc. 1979,1980,1982.

Guess I dont follow your question as I see no difficulty with this passage. It shows how and why God removed Saul from being over the kingdom because of his gross disobedience. We're talking consequences here, just as follow acts of disobedience for any of us. Even David experienced great and painful consequences for his sin, though he was a man after God's own heart! None of this negates God's sovereignty! His decree stands and will come to fulfillment. Though He is pained by disobedience and/or rejection He remains sovereign! You must allow scripture and a most holy God to speak to you through His word and not listen to the logic of human thinking! Dont put God in a box and decide how He must think or act! We submit to Him and His will and thought, not the reverse! May He show you His truth through the light of scripture and prayer!

 

[inchristalone221]

Jacquo, about the meaning of eklektos. I'm only a first year greek student (and educating myself at that), but I at least in some way can understand the relationships of greek words.

The word eklektos is related to the word eklesia, which means "set aside for a specific purpose."

 

[Nadiine]

Dear holeinone,

Strange how you apppear to wholly omit the fact that Ezekiel 33:11 is explicit about God having no pleasure in the death of the wicked.

He has and had no plans for them to be lost. That is the clear implication.

Regards,

Jac

Hello Jac

I have a bit of a problem with this proposal.
As I read the Bible, I see different types of "Will" displayed by God.
He has a 'perfect' will (what He wants for us) and a 'permissive' will, whereby He allows sin to do it's work on the [which ultimately end up serving His purpose].

Simply because God takes no pleasure in the death of the unsaved, wouldn't necessarily mean that He had no plan for them to be unsaved - It may have been a necessary part of His plan for a purpose we may not realize...
Anymore that He takes "pleasure" in the torture or molestation of a child... but allows evil to run it's course.

Maybe I'm missing something or not correlating something properly, but that's how I see His will in operation.

 

[Calvinist Dark Lord]

Dear Woody,

At least I need to commend you for looking up what respources you had to hand to check out eklektos.

However if you read my post 190 preceding yours of 195 you would have full access to the research I mention.

i've taken a look at your source. The first observation is that he is a secondary source, presuming to understand Greek and Hebrew/Aramaic, when he's had no training in any of those languages. Secondarily, he presumes to 'correct' Scholars who read the sources in the original languages, and furthermore presumes to crawl into the mind of the Patriarchs who authored the OT, as well as the 72 scholars who compiled the LXX, and discern their 'intention'.

And somehow in the midst of all that, he has supposedly discovered a "truth" missed for over 2000 years.

Pardon me while i have a well needed laugh over that idea....OK, back to business.

You will not find it in Lexicons because the authors of these have not checked as I have every place where the word is found in the Septuagint: the bible Jesus and the apostles quoted from.

First off, "IT" will not be found in lexicons because what you are attempting to read into the construction does not exist in either the New Testament or the Septuagent.

TEACHABLE MOMENT:

Perhaps you have heard of GRAMCORD? It is a computer programme first done on a Unix maniframe. It stands for GRAMmatical ConCORDance. GRAMCORD is a HUGE database programme that has all of the Judeo/Christian documents within it. One can call up all of the instances of a particular word in either Greek, Aramaic of Hebrew (and some others such as Chaldee, Coptic, etc). One could call up every instance of any particular grammatical structure that exists in those writings...including the Septuagent as well. For example. If i had a copy of GRAMCORD (at $750 for the cheapest version that runs on a PC), i could call up every instance of the genitive absolute in both the New Testament and the Septuagent. It is through the very kind of research that you mention above (done by hand through painful years of study) that these scholars have placed the definition of terms in the Lexicons.

This has already been done, and the results catalogued. This makes your claims laughable, as well as inaccurate.

It's use can be verified by comparing the Hebrew word the writers of the Septuagint translated it from in the approriate verses in our bibles. Thus is revealed the meaning.

Unfortunately you are labouring under a misapprehension. The lion's share of the original audience of much of the New Testament writings were GENTILES, not Jews. Even among many of the Jews, Hebrew was not used to the extent that Greek was used, and certainly not much outside of Israel. While there were Jewish communities in many of the places the New Testament mentions, those Jews would have undoubtedly spoken Greek in day-to-day life. It simply would be wrong to assume that the meaning was somehow confused. Especially in light of the fact that the Greek language has a word...a form of dovkimo", that conveys the meaning you have read into the text by this "cherry picking" method that you have utilised.

In a sense it is a kind of sola scriptura research by-passing the - in this case - inaccurate and incorrect lexicons (very rare for Strongs btw).

Regards,

Jac

Regretabbly Jac, you have, unwittingly, to quote Hank Hannegraaff, "taken scripture out of context, to become a pretext for abhorrant doctrine". i strongly recommend that you get some rudimentary instruction in the Greek and Hebrew languages before you presume to pontificate on how scholars who think in the particular language they were trained in while they are using it have somehow "gotten it wrong".

 

[Calvinist Dark Lord]

>Jaq,
surely you jest!
You go to the trouble of website & publication to make your point, & then you drop a rhetoric bomb like that "question"?
The pretext of the question (when posited in this forum)pre-empts serious consideration as anything but polemic.

"Why are non-Calvinists so ignorant of translations and such contortionists with context?" would be an equaly useful question, no?


What is the basic difference between "chosen or elect" and "fit for it/quality/up to it"?
What would be the point of contention between Calvinists & others is how they got to be "chosen or elect" and "fit for it/quality/up to it" - not that they were either.
Do you want to exchange rhetoric or discuss ideas?

Emphasis by Calvinist Dark Lord

Excellent observation Rick. One must also ask on what basis is one "fit for", or "up to it". Even though some "Lexical gymnastics" have been utilised to deny the God's choice of His elect by selecting the least "offensive" of the possible definitions of ejklektov" *the fact remains that God is the one who makes the choice, and determines whether or not one is "fit".

*In the event that the Greek font appears as gibberish in the post, you can load the Greek font used from the following URL:

http://bible.crosswalk.com/OtherResources/BSTFonts/

You need to select which particular version of Windows you are using.

If using Linux in a dual boot system, PM me, and i can talk you through the process of installing into Linux.
​