Calvinism, What Is It? [Beginner's Resources]

[Jonaitis]

That's because everything of God is God. All of his attributes are not parts or pieces of himself, that you can add to him or take away, but are essentially identical with himself. His mind isn't separated from his divine self, everything is God that is in God. This is his divine simplicity. For him to change his "mind" is to change himself, since the mind and will are identical with himself. Scripture uses the analogy of faith to bring the working of God to the human finite understanding using terms that relate to the human experience. God doesn't have an arm or a finger, yet we describe certain operations/works of his with the analogy of a man's experience.

There is a difference between his internal reality (ad intra) and his external dealing with creation (ad extra). Everything in God is ad intra and ontological in nature, but everything he does in interaction with creation is outside of himself and does not affect him, ad extra.

*Continuation*

Since all of God's attributes are really the same attribute with one aspect of that attribute emphasized in different ways, like a prism that splits one light into a rainbow of colors, I believe divine impassibility is nearly the same thing as divine simplicity in a lot of ways, and cannot be understood apart from each other, so I recommend if you want to learn more about this you can check out these resources to get you started:

Position Paper on Divine Impassibility (PDF)
God without Passions: a Primer – A Practical and Pastoral Study of Divine Impassibility by Samuel Renihan (Book)
God without Passions: A Reader by Samuel Renihan (Book)
Dr. James Dolezal: Divine Simplicity and the Grammar of Classical Christian Orthodoxy (Video)
All That Is In God by James Dolezal (Book)

I am still working through the book 'Confessing the Impassible God: the biblical, classical, and confessional doctrine of Divine Impassibility'. It is a very deep read, I'd say LOL.

 

[worshipjunkie]

Oh, ok it did link to logos and has it at the price mentioned. I accidentally hit the link she provided.

I saw it. I got the book. More reading.

 

[dms1972]

That's because everything of God is God. All of his attributes are not parts or pieces of himself, that you can add to him or take away, but are essentially identical with himself. His mind isn't separated from his divine self, everything is God that is in God. This is his divine simplicity. For him to change his "mind" is to change himself, since the mind and will are identical with himself. Scripture uses the analogy of faith to bring the working of God to the human finite understanding using terms that relate to the human experience. God doesn't have an arm or a finger, yet we describe certain operations/works of his with the analogy of a man's experience.

There is a difference between his internal reality (ad intra) and his external dealing with creation (ad extra). Everything in God is ad intra and ontological in nature, but everything he does in interaction with creation is outside of himself and does not affect him, ad extra.

I sort of understand what you are saying, from which scripture can we deduce God's Immutibility?

You can correct me if I am wrong, but Calvinism seems to imply God acts toward some according to His Justice = the non-elect, but towards others according to His Love=the elect. Why doesn't he act towards all in both justice and love?

 

[twin1954]

I sort of understand what you are saying, from which scripture can we deduce God's Immutibility?

You can correct me if I am wrong, but Calvinism seems to imply God acts toward some according to His Justice = the non-elect, but towards others according to His Love=the elect. Why doesn't he act towards all in both justice and love?

Sin is such an affront to God that it deserves the severest punishment. We are all wretched sinners who drink iniquity like water. Therefore we all deserve whatever God’s justice demands. God is not obligated in any way to a single one of us. But God chose to save some and set His love on them and sent the Son to accomplish their salvation. He deals in justice with both the elect and the reprobate. In unbending justice He put to death His Son in the place of chosen sinners. In strict justice He condemns all those not found in Christ to eternal damnation. But you must remember that the elect are as many as the stars in the sky and the sand of the sea, an innumerable group.

 

[Jonaitis]

I sort of understand what you are saying, from which scripture can we deduce God's Immutibility?

You can correct me if I am wrong, but Calvinism seems to imply God acts toward some according to His Justice = the non-elect, but towards others according to His Love=the elect. Why doesn't he act towards all in both justice and love?

Exo. 3:14-15; Num. 23:19; 1 Sam. 102:25-27; Mal. 3:6.

Good question. Why does God save anyone at all? If we are all children of wrath, he had every right to leave us in our rebellion and sin to be judged at the end, and he would have been perfectly just in it. Why did he choose to save some? That's the real question. He had some purpose and I don't know why that is. But praise God that he would even show mercy to a few instead of condemning us all!

 

[twin1954]

Exo. 3:14-15; Num. 23:19; 1 Sam. 102:25-27; Mal. 3:6.

Good question. Why does God save anyone at all? If we are all children of wrath, he had every right to leave us in our rebellion and sin to be judged at the end, and he would have been perfectly just in it. Why did he choose to save some? That's the real question. He had some purpose and I don't know why that is. But praise God that he would even show mercy to a few instead of condemning us all!

Just to give you something to consider; God chose to save some in order to glorify His name and to show The Son to be preeminent in all things. Here are a couple of passages that I believe show this:

Exodus 33:17-19 (KJV) 17 And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name. 18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory. 19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

This passage tells us that God has wrapped up His glory in sovereign mercy.

Colossians 1:13-20 (KJV) 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.

This passage speaks for itself.

Understanding this will open up a whole lot of Scripture to you.

 

[Jonaitis]

God chose to save some in order to glorify His name and to show The Son to be preeminent in all things.

Agreed.

I suppose what I meant to say is, why did he chose to save me in particular and not another? That is a high mystery I cannot explain. But you are right, it is to the end to glorify himself...

 

[twin1954]

Agreed.

I suppose what I meant to say is, why did he chose to save me in particular and not another? That is a high mystery I cannot explain. But you are right, it is to the end to glorify himself...

That is why God’s sovereign electing love is the most humbling thing I can conceive of. If you truly understand God’s electing love it most certainly doesn’t make you haughty.

 

[Jonaitis]

That is why God’s sovereign electing love is the most humbling thing I can conceive of. If you truly understand God’s electing love is most certainly doesn’t make you haughty.

How true, yet some persist that it gives us a reason to boast - yes, in grace!

 

[dms1972]

So is TULIP something Calvinists think should be taught to non-christians? Personally I think it would need very careful explication to avoid folks getting quite wrong ideas. How would a calvinist gospel sermon go?

Some calvinists (RC Sproul comes to mind) have re-worked the five points, to avoid what he thinks could give rise to misunderstandings, Total depravity becomes Radical Corruption, or Total inability (with others) for instance. Limited Atonement becomes Definite Redemption. Seems like the TULIP acrostic is seen a being liable to a lot of misunderstanding even in calvinist circles.

Are these five points helpful to know about if your are not yet a christian? Jesus just seems to have invited people to come to him "Come ye that are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

The other verse "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him." Does this exclude people who are not yet christians being able to talk to Jesus in prayer? When on earth, people came to Jesus, including Pharases and asked him stuff, I know that doesn't mean they always had faith in him, but they were able to approach him with their questions. So do calvinists believe people can do that today without a special drawing from God?

 

[twin1954]

So is TULIP something Calvinists think should be taught to non-christians? Personally I think it would need very careful explication to avoid folks getting quite wrong ideas. How would a calvinist gospel sermon go?

Some calvinists (RC Sproul comes to mind) have re-worked the five points, to avoid what he thinks could give rise to misunderstandings, Total depravity becomes Radical Corruption, or Total inability (with others) for instance. Limited Atonement becomes Definite Redemption. Seems like the TULIP acrostic is seen a being liable to a lot of misunderstanding even in calvinist circles.

Are these five points helpful to know about if your are not yet a christian? Jesus just seems to have invited people to come to him "Come ye that are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

The other verse "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him." Does this exclude people who are not yet christians being able to talk to Jesus in prayer? When on earth, people came to Jesus, including Pharases and asked him stuff, I know that doesn't mean they always had faith in him, but they were able to approach him with their questions. So do calvinists believe people can do that today without a special drawing from God?

I have never liked the TULIP acrostic. But to answer your question yes it brings up many misunderstandings. Does one have to know the five points to be saved? Not at all. But one does have to know who the Lord Jesus Christ is. That He is the same as the God revealed in the Old Testament for the Old Testant is all about Him.

As to His hearing the prayers of unbelievers, the answer is only those who He intends to bring the Gospel of their salvation effectually in their heart. He has loved them from before the foundation of the world. The rest He does not hear.

A Calvinist sermon preaches the Biblical Gospel. It isn’t some sappy story to move your emotions, though it can be very emotional. Yes it includes all the truth concerning electing love and Christ’s substitution on their behalf. It includes how the elect are justified according to unbending justice and righteousness. It tells of how the Lord God upheld His righteousness in justifying sinners. It speaks of how the Lord Jesus lived a perfect life for us. It talks about how everything in the Old Testament typified or pictured the Lord’s work for and in the sinner. It tells us about how the Lord works for us and in us in regeneration, faith, life and eternity. It is a complete and powerful Gospel because it speaks of Christ as He is and puts man in the dust at His feet begging mercy. It asks man to do nothing: recite a prayer, let Him into your heart, walk an isle or any such nonsense. It proclaims The Lord Jesus Christ and salvation in Him alone without man’s help or work of any kind. It calls upon sinners to believe but leaves the rest to the Spirit to apply the Gospel to the heart. We don’t try to shame people into belief nor coerce them into a false faith. We simply and clearly proclaim Christ and leave the rest to God.

The Pharisees, with one exception, came to the Lord Jesus in order to trap Him in His talk. They asked questions of Him in order to say that He was not a teachrt come from God.

But instead of hijacking this thread why don’t we start another with your questions.

 

[dms1972]

I have never liked the TULIP acrostic. But to answer your question yes it brings up many misunderstandings. Does one have to know the five points to be saved? Not at all. But one does have to know who the Lord Jesus Christ is. That He is the same as the God revealed in the Old Testament for the Old Testant is all about Him.

As to His hearing the prayers of unbelievers, the answer is only those who He intends to bring the Gospel of their salvation effectually in their heart. He has loved them from before the foundation of the world. The rest He does not hear.

A Calvinist sermon preaches the Biblical Gospel. It isn’t some sappy story to move your emotions, though it can be very emotional. Yes it includes all the truth concerning electing love and Christ’s substitution on their behalf. It includes how the elect are justified according to unbending justice and righteousness. It tells of how the Lord God upheld His righteousness in justifying sinners. It speaks of how the Lord Jesus lived a perfect life for us. It talks about how everything in the Old Testament typified or pictured the Lord’s work for and in the sinner. It tells us about how the Lord works for us and in us in regeneration, faith, life and eternity. It is a complete and powerful Gospel because it speaks of Christ as He is and puts man in the dust at His feet begging mercy. It asks man to do nothing: recite a prayer, let Him into your heart, walk an isle or any such nonsense. It proclaims The Lord Jesus Christ and salvation in Him alone without man’s help or work of any kind. It calls upon sinners to believe but leaves the rest to the Spirit to apply the Gospel to the heart. We don’t try to shame people into belief nor coerce them into a false faith. We simply and clearly proclaim Christ and leave the rest to God.

The Pharisees, with one exception, came to the Lord Jesus in order to trap Him in His talk. They asked questions of Him in order to say that He was not a teachrt come from God.

But instead of hijacking this thread why don’t we start another with your questions.

I apologise if my comments have disrupted the discussion. Its not reformed theology (I have works by Calvin, Shedd, Bavinck, and others which I often find very helpful) but the way it is sometimes taught, by acrostics that as soon as someone begins to explain the points he has to say this term would be better as something else.

A major omission from the Guide is reference to Calvin's Institutes themselves. To assume you know what Calvin thought because you know calvinism, is a big mistake. I believe his thought is far more nuanced than people realise.

 

[Jonaitis]

I apologise if my comments have disrupted the discussion. Its not reformed theology (I have works by Calvin, Shedd, Bavinck, and others which I often find very helpful) but the way it is sometimes taught, by acrostics that as soon as someone begins to explain the points he has to say this term would be better as something else.

A major omission from the Guide is reference to Calvin's Institutes themselves. To assume you know what Calvin thought because you know calvinism, is a big mistake. I believe his thought is far more nuanced than people realise.

I would recommend Calvin's Institutes, but that requires a heavy reading for someone new to all of this. The purpose of this thread is to help the person "get their feet wet," to introduce them to the beginning doctrines. Reformed theology is much more than five points, which only touches the surface of it.

 

[dms1972]

.

 

[Jonaitis]

Unfortunately "getting their feet wet" will likely skew their understanding of Calvin. As Sproul says, TULIP is only the controversial points. Better to read him with no preconceptions.

I'm reading this as if you're saying the doctrines of grace was invented by Calvin himself, instead of articulated by Calvin. Please go somewhere else if you want to talk about this.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Unfortunately "getting their feet wet" will likely skew their understanding of Calvin. As Sproul says, TULIP is only the controversial points. Better to read him with no preconceptions.

Nah, the only controversy between Calvin and TULIP, might be on "L" because of commentary comments. I say "might" because it's certainly debatable either way. I'd sure like to see a quote with context by Sproul suggesting TULIP is controversial. Maybe your wording above is a little off? Because knowing Dr. Sproul, he would explain how the "controversy" created by the Remonstrants was settled by the Synod of Dort through the rejection the five articles of the Remonstrance with a response later nicknamed the Five Points of Calvinism later nicknamed into the acronym T.U.L.I.P. for easy memorization.

List of participants in the Synod of Dort

I must confess, over roughly fifteen years of being a Calvinist, I have read so little of John Calvin, the man associated with the theology named after him, originally intended as an insult, originating with a Lutheran. The point is, my understanding of Calvinism did not come through reading the writings of the great Reformer, and what is called "Calvinism" does not stand or fall with the man John Calvin, it is strongly proven by Scripture, and more often than not no further explanation is necessary, a plain reading of Scripture will more than suffice. I do not believe it is possible to read Scripture or Calvin without any preconceptions, sorry but the best we can do is identify them and keep them in check, in efforts of being fair and balanced. Calvin is not easy reading by any stretch, he is a highly advanced theologian, much like his mentor in writing, St. Augustine. Neither theologian would fall under the "beginner" category. Advanced theologians struggle at times and points with both of these theological giants, and for good reason, theologians of the caliber of Augustine and Calvin are not born every day. Both were extraordinary men, living in extraordinary times in history.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

The Five Solas of the Reformation are as important to Calvinism as the Five Points.

Simply put, Calvinism is the most God centered theology in all of Christendom. Some might consider this extreme, perhaps thinking biblical theology is God and man centered or man centered. But you see, Jesus Christ is Lord, and people ought to consider what that means and entails. I think in the West, we do tend to compartmentalize our thoughts as it extends to our lives and disciplines to an extreme. To such an extreme we do not even consider the source of all knowledge or the basis for justifying it as such. Instead of singing songs to God, we sing about God, instead of singing about His sovereign grace and mercy, we sing about our own devotion, our feelings. After years and years of watered down mixed and confusing messages, God pressed upon my heart the oceans of man centered theology I had crossed which passes itself off as Biblical theology. Man centered theology always has and always will emphasize man and as a consequence the conditional aspects found within teachings of the Bible. In Scripture we read that God created man in His image, in it's worst forms, man centered theology would create God into the image of man, that is a revisionist highly modified god after their own likeness. In this, the marriage of spiritual pride and truth can become stranger than fiction.

 

[dms1972]

I'd sure like to see a quote with context by Sproul suggesting TULIP is controversial.

My continuing to discuss in the thread is being objected to, so all I say is if you watch the Sproul video above, he talks about that around the 1.45 - 3:30 point. Yes he is speaking about the Remonstrants. But he is correct these doctrines are far from being the whole of Reformed theology.

 

[Jonaitis]

Bump

 

[ilovejcsog]

Why do you feel the need to defend Calvinism? I haven't heard anything bad about it?