Calvinism Vs. Wesleyan Theology

[Rebirth In Flames]

Which one do you side with, and why?

Here’s the basic “TULIP” breakdown: http://www.biblejam.com/tulip.htm


I’m a Wesleyan and have recently been chatting with a good friend of mine who’s a Calvinist, which obviously got me thinking about a lot of things; so I wanted to hear what you guys had to say before I start asking anything specific. Any general thoughts regarding either of these viewpoints?

 

[Beoga]

i have a little problem with the way that Irresistable Grace is worded, but I agree with the Calvinist side

 

[Philip]

Which one do you side with, and why?

Neither. I am Orthodox.

 

[Astronaut]

Wesley tried to combine some mystical eastern elements into his theology; tried to reduce some of the rationalism inherent in protestant theology; but in the end couldn't bring himself to trash the most problematic part of western theology -- the forensic model of the atonement. All of his "mystical union with Christ" adaptations were just eyewash when, in the end, he still preaches that humans stand in need to be "justified," in a transactional sense, to their Glad Creator. It was a nice try though.

 

[The Prokeimenon!]

Both sides were unknown for the first 1500 years of Christianity. The Wesleyan side seems closer to the Truth to me, but there are some pretty major flaws in both sides.

Christ is risen!

Moses

 

[cygnusx1]

in essence there are only two sides .


God saves man from sheer Grace (Sovereign Grace and mercy)

or

Man saves himself by his own strength (free-will and works)


That is the difference whatever the "shades" of opinions different Church's may reach.

 

[Astronaut]

in essence there are only two sides .


God saves man from sheer Grace (Sovereign Grace and mercy)

or

Man saves himself by his own strength (free-will and works)


That is the difference whatever the "shades" of opinions different Church's may reach.

Of course, in the East, we recognize this for what it is -- a false dichotomy. But Calvinism does seem to create a mental outlook that would see things this way -- that mental outlook is a limiting one.

 

[The Prokeimenon!]

Of course, in the East, we recognize this for what it is -- a false dichotomy.

My thoughts exactly. (no, really- I was thinking those exact same words ) I would add that it's a dichotomy that, again, was unheard of for the first 1500 years of Christianity.

Christ is risen!

Moses

 

[alaurie]

former calvinist turned wesleyan checking in

 

[unimportantbuthisnameis]

I lean more towards the Wesley side.

 

[cygnusx1]

Of course, in the East, we recognize this for what it is -- a false dichotomy. But Calvinism does seem to create a mental outlook that would see things this way -- that mental outlook is a limiting one.

I have discussed this issue at lenghth with many denominations including Orthodox , and it usually comes down to that dichotemy , just give it time and you will see what I mean ...... Grace is either saving us because we have lost the ability to turn to God , or we are saving ourselves by availing ourselves of Grace by our Free-will .

 

[Astronaut]

I have discussed this issue at lenghth with many denominations including Orthodox , and it usually comes down to that dichotemy , just give it time and you will see what I mean ...... Grace is either saving us because we have lost the ability to turn to God , or we are saving ourselves by availing ourselves of Grace by our Free-will .

OK, you win, you're right -- are you happy now? Being right seems to be so important to Calvinists.

 

[Beoga]

OK, you win, you're right -- are you happy now? Being right seems to be so important to Calvinists.

maybe they are just concerned that the truth be told/shown and it is not necessarily about being right.

 

[Astronaut]

maybe they are just concerned that the truth be told/shown and it is not necessarily about being right.

And of course, it always happens to be the same thing.

 

[TSIBHOD]

I have discussed this issue at lenghth with many denominations including Orthodox , and it usually comes down to that dichotemy , just give it time and you will see what I mean ...... Grace is either saving us because we have lost the ability to turn to God , or we are saving ourselves by availing ourselves of Grace by our Free-will .

You're framing the issue in these terms: God saves us, or we save ourselves. In actuality, the issue between Arminians and Calvinists is: God saves us because He decided to give grace, or God saves us because we decide to accept grace. Everybody on both sides believes that it is Christ's work on the cross that saves us.

 

[Beoga]

You're framing the issue in these terms: God saves us, or we save ourselves. In actuality, the issue between Arminians and Calvinists is: God saves us because He decided to give grace, or God saves us because we decide to accept grace. Everybody on both sides believes that it is Jesus that saves us.

what about this example given:
Calvinism:
We are in a pit, with no way to get out, Christ comes along and pulls us out.

Arminian/Wesylian:
We are in a pit, Christ comes along, sees us in there, throws down a rope for us, and we use the rope to pull ourself out.

Monergism vs. Synergism
Calvinism: It is 100% the work of God
Arminian: Christ does His work in the role of Salvation, but we must do our part in the salvation process. We must pull ourselves out

 

[<Follower>]

Which one do you side with, and why?

Here’s the basic “TULIP” breakdown: http://www.biblejam.com/tulip.htm


I’m a Wesleyan and have recently been chatting with a good friend of mine who’s a Calvinist, which obviously got me thinking about a lot of things; so I wanted to hear what you guys had to say before I start asking anything specific. Any general thoughts regarding either of these viewpoints?

ouside of my latest thread, I would be Wesleyan I suppose.

 

[theend0218]

God thoughts one and all. I would add, though, that Calvin read Augustine and quoted him often. I think Augustine's studies on sin, the human will and sin, and God's grace in salvation set the stage for many of the dialogues that took place within the Catholic Church. A case can be made, in fact, that Calvin's views on Salvation were, for the most part, a fleshing out of the work of Augustine. The one contribution that Calvin did make was on the Holy Spirit. He is in many ways "the Reformed theologian" of the Holy Spirit. If memory serves, Augustine lived and wrote in the early fifth century. I don't think we can say "Calvinism" introduced an unknown theology of salvation. I also think there were many within the Catholic Church from Augustine on who viewed things in a way very similar to Calvin. While the Catholic Church may not have completely adopted Augustinianism as its views on these issues, I do not think he was repudiated either. That is why Calvin quoted from him so profusely on these issues in his debates - he claimed that his views were within the historical tradition valued by the Roman Church. I would add, TULIP is really not an adequate introduction to or statement of what Calvin taught. If you want read Calvin, I can make a few suggestions. If you want a good introduction to Calvin by someone else, I can suggest a book or two on that as well. I have no desire to turn anyone into a Calvinist or any other "ist" or "ism" - but I do think he made a valuable contribution to biblical theology in the best sense of that term.

 

[TSIBHOD]

what about this example given:
Calvinism:
We are in a pit, with no way to get out, Christ comes along and pulls us out.

Arminian/Wesylian:
We are in a pit, Christ comes along, sees us in there, throws down a rope for us, and we use the rope to pull ourself out.

Monergism vs. Synergism
Calvinism: It is 100% the work of God
Arminian: Christ does His work in the role of Salvation, but we must do our part in the salvation process. We must pull ourselves out

None of that implies that we save ourselves. Arminians view it like this: Christ paid for our sins, and this is like Him giving us a check to pay for our debt. But we have to cash the check. The payment is still all His, but we have to accept the payment.

I don't believe all this, but you're misrepresenting the Arminian position. (The check-cashing analogy is one I got off of an Arminian website.) It's no different than an Arminian saying, "Yeah, Calvinists just believe that we're little robots." It doesn't help to spread misinformation.

With your pit analogy, an Arminian would probably see it more as, "Jesus comes along and offers His hand, and we grasp it so that He can pull us out." Or something along those lines--not just that He gives us a means (rope) to save ourselves.

 

[Antman_05]

Calvinism i would have to say, its unfortunate how many ppl i speak to think i hold to Hyper-Calvinism because they just don't seem to know the difference. SO they always try and debate me when i'm agreeing with them :S go figure.