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Calvinism Vs. Wesleyan Theology

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Jon_

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Philip said:
Aren't there people who think they have faith, but don't?

An interesting question, indeed. Interesting because the Scripture is so clear:
(John 3:16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Since I am but one man and do not know anyone else's personal experience, I can only speak for myself: I do not see how someone could possibly think that Jesus Christ is their personal Savior and Redeemer, but not have faith in the very same. That seems highly contradictory.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon
 
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Philip

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Jon_ said:
[/indent]Since I am but one man and do not know anyone else's personal experience, I can only speak for myself: I do not see how someone could possibly think that Jesus Christ is their personal Savior and Redeemer, but not have faith in the very same. That seems highly contradictory.

You don't think that it is possible for the natural man to think he has faith? Only the elect think they have faith?
 
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unimportantbuthisnameis

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What about the wheat and tares parable or what about:
Matthew 7:22-24 (King James Version)(KJV)

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
 
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Jon_

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Philip said:
You don't think that it is possible for the natural man to think he has faith? Only the elect think they have faith?

No, I don't think it's possible for natural man to think he has faith in Christ as his personal Savior. How can one think that they have faith in Christ as King of Kings, Lord of Lords, Savior, Redeemer, Messiah, Judge of the Earth, Son of God, Foundation of the Earth? Perhaps if you were to ask him if he believed in Christ as his personal Savior, he might say, "Uh, well... yeah, I think that's all good, and stuff." But what kind of faith is that? Lukewarm faith. Having been given the opportunity of the Gospel, but not accepting and believing it with his heart, man has convinced himself that mere association with the good news will save him. He is dire wrong.

Not only do only the elect think they have faith, but they do. Only God's chosen have faith in Christ as personal Savior. Is it possible for mortal man to so delusion himself with lies, or be so deceived by Satan as to think that he has faith in Christ, when in truth he does not? I find it very hard to believe, and unsubstantiated by Scripture. Knowing that Christ is Lord and Savior is much different in having faith in him as Savior. Satan and his angels all know that Christ is the Messiah. Does that mean they have personal faith in Christ as Savior? Of course not. They cannot because it was not predestined by God.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon
 
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cygnusx1

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I just posted this up some place , thought it fits here .......... :wave:


if you really want to see the difficulty of Faith , spend just 2 hours in General Apologetics trying to convince unbelievers they need saving ..... by the Grace Of God I have done it for over a year.

You will discover faith is not simple it is problomatic , but we forget , we assume because it was "easy" for us it must be for all .


Now if a person needs faith they need to know

1.Who to have faith in
2. Why they need this faith
3. How to have this faith

You tell them they need to believe on The Lord Jesus Christ , and they will say "what for" ?
You tell them Jesus died so that sinners would be forgiven , they will say "why" ?
"Why did God just not forgive , if there is a God."??
Then they will ask you , "How do I have faith , the evidence is open to question and the whole need for anyone needing salvation is questionable to say the least ".


You see , you can come into soteriology and debate the whole thing in a cold clinical semantic way and miss the reality .


The reality is The Gospel is foolish to all men who are using their fleshly minds to reason it through , they cannot perceive it , it doesn't add up , and they think Christians are just wishful thinkers and irrational.


But when a person is Born of God , when God the Spirit moves to Regenerate a man , then and only then is that man able , capable of grasping the things of God , for through the New Birth he has the mind of Christ . And the Gospel message is so obvious and real to him that he submits and is willing to obey when Christ says Repent be Baptised and be saved .


The difference between one man obeying and trusting Christ with his soul is profound :

the unbeliever is like a Blind man crossing a busy interstate (all is confusion and doubt and fear) and a resolute desire to trust only himself.

But the believer is a man CURED of his blindness , he opens his 'eyes' and what does he 'see' ? he 'sees' the Lord who has spoken to him.
 
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Philip

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Jon_ said:
No, I don't think it's possible for natural man to think he has faith in Christ as his personal Savior. How can one think that they have faith in Christ as King of Kings, Lord of Lords, Savior, Redeemer, Messiah, Judge of the Earth, Son of God, Foundation of the Earth?

Do Mormons have faith in Christ? Do they think they do?

Not only do only the elect think they have faith, but they do.

You didn't answer the question. Are the elect the only people who think they have faith?
 
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Jon_

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Philip said:
Do Mormons have faith in Christ? Do they think they do?

Good question. I'm not a Mormon. Neither do I know any. Perhaps you should ask one of them.

Philip said:
You didn't answer the question. Are the elect the only people who think they have faith?

Yes, I did. You didn't bother to read everything I said.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon
 
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Philip

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Jon_ said:
Yes, I did. You didn't bother to read everything I said.

I did read it. You equated thinking one has faith to the knowledge held by demons. That is not what I asked. I will rephrase the question:

Does everyone who thinks they are elect actually elect?
 
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TSIBHOD

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littleapologist said:
except for the part where we grab hold of the rope and climb out

Maybe you missed my posts on pages 2 and 3. You as a Calvinist don't want want Arminians spreading false impressions about you. You don't like Arminians telling you what you believe, I'm sure. What's your excuse? Do unto others because they already did unto you?
 
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jangnim

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Man reading this thread is just like reading a King James Only thread. Everybody is convinced they are right, and they all think they have the Bible to back them up, as well as their associated heavy-weights Calvin vs Wesley.

Honestly, a theology is a human interpretation of what someone thought in regard to all of these things. It is a human understanding of a subject way too big to comprehend for us little people of faith, at least I think I have faith, much like some of my friends who ARE mormon.

Fact is that we tend to get wrapped up in the discussion of these puny theologies and we stop looking at Jesus Himself. Personally, at the risk of betraying my Methodist heritage, I would say it doesn't matter who is right, since in the end God knows who is saved and who he has not drawn to Himself.

Personally, and I know this will get a few angry comments, we should burn the theologies and get back to the simple gospel. Let God worry about who is saved and how, all we need do is have faith in Him.
 
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TSIBHOD

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Jon_ said:
The Wesleyan doctrine is very good at making people feel like they play an active role in their salvation, even though they do not. Some people need that. I suppose you do. I would rather walk in the truth, though, which is why I left the Nazarene church.
That sounded prideful to me. You made your belief sound so high and noble, while you talked down to the Arminians and made their belief sound like mere lies contrived to make people feel good. Do you think you're going to convince anyone by talking down to them?

I guess you are just one of those people who needs to make posts like that to put down other people so that you can feel good about yourself. I don't do that, though, because I know that Christ paid for my sins, so I don't need to put down others in order to feel good.

Just kidding in that last paragraph ;), but did you notice what I did? I talked down to you just like you did to an Arminian. It doesn't feel very good, does it?
 
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Jon_

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Philip said:
I did read it. You equated thinking one has faith to the knowledge held by demons. That is not what I asked. I will rephrase the question:

Does everyone who thinks they are elect actually elect?

Jon_ said:
Is it possible for mortal man to so delusion himself with lies, or be so deceived by Satan as to think that he has faith in Christ, when in truth he does not? I find it very hard to believe, and unsubstantiated by Scripture.

In short: No. I am open to being proven wrong, though. The only thing I don't understand is why you are so focused on this.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon
 
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jangnim

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ALaurie said:
Great post, jangnim! Reps to you -thanks for the reminder to focus on the gospel :)

Thanks sis. Really if it divides us, we need to think about whether it is a good thing. Theoilogies, in my experience tend to divide. Jesus Unites, He Saves, He is everything.
 
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Jon_

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jangnim said:
Man reading this thread is just like reading a King James Only thread. Everybody is convinced they are right, and they all think they have the Bible to back them up, as well as their associated heavy-weights Calvin vs Wesley.

Honestly, a theology is a human interpretation of what someone thought in regard to all of these things. It is a human understanding of a subject way too big to comprehend for us little people of faith, at least I think I have faith, much like some of my friends who ARE mormon.

Fact is that we tend to get wrapped up in the discussion of these puny theologies and we stop looking at Jesus Himself. Personally, at the risk of betraying my Methodist heritage, I would say it doesn't matter who is right, since in the end God knows who is saved and who he has not drawn to Himself.

Personally, and I know this will get a few angry comments, we should burn the theologies and get back to the simple gospel. Let God worry about who is saved and how, all we need do is have faith in Him.

This is a wonderfully heartfelt post. I agree whole-heartedly. That is, I agree in my heart; however, what you are suggesting is precisely what a lot of modern churches are doing. As a result, we have millions of Christians who never get off milk and into the meat of their faith. I know men who have been Christians their entire lives who don't know a thing about their faith. All they know is that they believe in Christ Jesus.

Don't get me wrong! That's good. It's great. It's the greatest great. The problem is that their faith, their witness, their lives suffer as a result of a critical lack of doctrine. Their faith is perched on a tenuous foundation. It's like a house of cards. One stiff wind and it will all crumble. A Christian without assurance is of no use to God. How can he serve God when he does not even have faith in his faith? Doubting Thomas is a perfect example. He was crushed when he heard of Christ's crucifixion, even though it had been foretold. Jesus said it would be coming, but he was still completely crestfallen at the development.

When a Christian's faith is broken, he becomes nigh useless.

This is the danger of simply abandoning theology. It is a critically vital component of Christianity. It is commanded by Scripture. Paul wrote extensively on the subject (long before it was ever called theology, mind you). It's primarily his epistles that we use to form our arguments. You cannot study Scripture without running into theological topics. It's impossible. God has manifested himself (that's what theology is: the study of God) profoundly in the Scriptures.

No, my friend. I understand your heart, but do not let your desire for peace and tranquility to overcome your better Christian judgment. Theology is vitally important to Christians. The less we understand it, the more opportunities Satan has to tempt us back into our old ways. Without sound doctrine and the knowledge of our purpose and existence on this earth (to glorify God, yes, but to what end? and by what means?), Satan will deceive us in all manner of ways to lead us astray.

Though the contest can be bitter at times, we must persevere. We are sinful creatures, after all. What in this life isn't a struggle? What good is it if we never face trials? Consider it pure joy when you face trials of many kinds. James was absolutely right. He did not mean just trials outside of the church, in the workplace, or at the supermarket, or at a little league game. He also meant within the church! Why do you think Christianity is so factionalized, now? Why is there Catholicism, Orthodoxy, Protestantism, and even more sects and denominations within these? Because of foundational differences in theology and the practice of faith.

It is man's inherent arrogance and propensity to strife that causes these dissentions, not theology in itself. The pursuit of the study of God is noble and righteous. The pursuit of detractors for contention is not. I can only speak for myself, but in the threads that I post in on these forums, my intent is to first glorify God through the proclamation of his truth, second to edify my brethren, and lastly (but not least of all) to grow my own faith and understanding.

I would like to say that I could not care less about being right. But that's is not true. I do want to be right. But I want to glorify God, also. Sometimes, through the power of the Holy Spirit, I am able to maintain composure and act righteously. Sometimes, I lose my cool and respond with unnecessary candor. Sometimes, you can't tell the difference. ;)

But I can, and so can God. I am accountable for those times when I act selfishly and not out of a desire to glorify God. For these, I repent in shame, and pray that God would humble me, more and more.

And that is what Christian living is about. It's about growing in our relationship with God. He has shown me more amazing things in the past four months that I have been studying Reformed theology than I had learned in my entire 22 years of life before. His Spirit of revelation is astounding. I can't express how privileged I feel, knowing now, not just that my salvation was entirely his doing, but that my understanding of salvation was entirely his doing. Most Christians do not even come to grips with the truth of the Word. That is such an amazing revelation to me that words cannot express it. We Reformed believers are so abundantly blessed that his grace surpasses all words for the wisdom he has bestowed upon us.

I praise God for the wisdom and understanding that he has revealed to me through his Word by his Spirit. I praise God and give him all the glory for my salvation, my sanctification, and my justification. He is truly God Almighty. There is none who can stay his hand, or say unto him What are you doing? (Dan. 4:35).

Soli Deo Gloria (solely God's glory)

Jon
 
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Jon_

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TSIBHOD said:
That sounded prideful to me. You made your belief sound so high and noble, while you talked down to the Arminians and made their belief sound like mere lies contrived to make people feel good. Do you think you're going to convince anyone by talking down to them?

I'm sorry for the tone. I suppose that it did sound prideful. I really try to work on that. Sometimes, what comes across as simply confident to me, is received as prideful by others. I apologize for the confusion. I'll work on toning it down in the future.

TSIBHOD said:
I guess you are just one of those people who needs to make posts like that to put down other people so that you can feel good about yourself. I don't do that, though, because I know that Christ paid for my sins, so I don't need to put down others in order to feel good.

I will admit that making good posts does make me feel better. It gives me a sense of accomplishment. It makes me feel like I have done my duty of defending the faith. I understand your meaning here, though. Like I mentioned above, I'll work on tempering my tone. Thank you for pointing that out by the way. The old adage, You'll catch more flies with honey than vinegar, is certainly applicable.

TSIBHOD said:
Just kidding in that last paragraph ;), but did you notice what I did? I talked down to you just like you did to an Arminian. It doesn't feel very good, does it?

No, chastizement nevers feel good. But that's not the point, then, right? I think Hebrews 12:8-10 is a good passage for the topic.
But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye *******s, and not sons. Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
I most certainly seek to partake of his holiness; therefore, I accept your reproach openly. Thank you, brother.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon
 
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TSIBHOD

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Jon_ said:
I most certainly seek to partake of his holiness; therefore, I accept your reproach openly. Thank you, brother.
And thank you for receiving it well. And in my second paragraph, I wasn't seeking to chastize you, but to show you what it can feel like to be on the receiving end. The second paragraph was tongue-in-cheek.

It was a chastizing post overall, though, I suppose. I think I could say that it is a principle that chastizement should be about the correction of the chastized, not the correctness of the chastizer. That's a good principle to live by when you're correcting someone who believes differently. When you're arguing correctness, then you can say you're correct. But when you're "chastizing" someone for something, it's best to not mention your own correctness--unless you're going to do it tongue-in-cheek. ;)

Again, I know it's easy for people to get offended on the Internet, so thanks for not taking offense. :)
 
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Jon_

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TSIBHOD said:
And thank you for receiving it well. And in my second paragraph, I wasn't seeking to chastize you, but to show you what it can feel like to be on the receiving end. The second paragraph was tongue-in-cheek.

It was a chastizing post overall, though, I suppose. I think I could say that it is a principle that chastizement should be about the correction of the chastized, not the correctness of the chastizer. That's a good principle to live by when you're correcting someone who believes differently. When you're arguing correctness, then you can say you're correct. But when you're "chastizing" someone for something, it's best to not mention your own correctness--unless you're going to do it tongue-in-cheek. ;)

Again, I know it's easy for people to get offended on the Internet, so thanks for not taking offense. :)

In truth, the offense would have certainly been mine.
(Prov. 12:15) The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.

(Prov. 15:5) A fool despiseth his father's instruction: but he that regardeth reproof is prudent.
Again, thank you for bringing forth application for these excellent Scriptures.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon
 
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jangnim

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My friend I am humbled by your elloquence. I agree with much of it too.



Jon_ said:
This is a wonderfully heartfelt post. I agree whole-heartedly. That is, I agree in my heart; however, what you are suggesting is precisely what a lot of modern churches are doing. As a result, we have millions of Christians who never get off milk and into the meat of their faith. I know men who have been Christians their entire lives who don't know a thing about their faith. All they know is that they believe in Christ Jesus.
This is true. Many Christians simply go to church and never really understand the deeper things. They are drawn in by easy salvation without really knowing their mission in this world, and I firmly believe we all are given a mission for God.
Don't get me wrong! That's good. It's great. It's the greatest great. The problem is that their faith, their witness, their lives suffer as a result of a critical lack of doctrine. Their faith is perched on a tenuous foundation. It's like a house of cards. One stiff wind and it will all crumble. A Christian without assurance is of no use to God. How can he serve God when he does not even have faith in his faith? Doubting Thomas is a perfect example. He was crushed when he heard of Christ's crucifixion, even though it had been foretold. Jesus said it would be coming, but he was still completely crestfallen at the development.
We pretty much agree here too.
When a Christian's faith is broken, he becomes nigh useless.

This is the danger of simply abandoning theology. It is a critically vital component of Christianity. It is commanded by Scripture. Paul wrote extensively on the subject (long before it was ever called theology, mind you). It's primarily his epistles that we use to form our arguments. You cannot study Scripture without running into theological topics. It's impossible. God has manifested himself (that's what theology is: the study of God) profoundly in the Scriptures.
I really have no argument with theologies in and of themselves. I do have a problem with the divisions that they have caused in the church at large. I recall that Christ himself said "a house divided against itself cannot stand" and I see all around me these days churches that can't expect to continue because they are so hard nosed regarding their particualr brand of Christianity, and the theologies that drive them. All I am advocating is that we attempt to keep our eyes on Christ while we are disagreeing, and yet be united in our cause for Christ, and against Satan.
No, my friend. I understand your heart, but do not let your desire for peace and tranquility to overcome your better Christian judgment. Theology is vitally important to Christians. The less we understand it, the more opportunities Satan has to tempt us back into our old ways. Without sound doctrine and the knowledge of our purpose and existence on this earth (to glorify God, yes, but to what end? and by what means?), Satan will deceive us in all manner of ways to lead us astray.

While in MY heart of hearts I agree with you here, I simply can't help believing that even in these man made studies of God there are errors. Not simply Wesleyan error, or Calvinist error, but due to our own imperfections the only thing we have to truly rely upon is the scripture and the Holy Spirit within us. Personally, while these studies are of value to us, I would much rather let the Bible speak for itself, and try to come to my own conclusions rather than trusting a prewritten recipe to the faith. I realize that such a vocation is bound to be found in error from time to time, but my errors are my own and do not belong to some other author.
Though the contest can be bitter at times, we must persevere. We are sinful creatures, after all. What in this life isn't a struggle? What good is it if we never face trials? Consider it pure joy when you face trials of many kinds. James was absolutely right. He did not mean just trials outside of the church, in the workplace, or at the supermarket, or at a little league game. He also meant within the church! Why do you think Christianity is so factionalized, now? Why is there Catholicism, Orthodoxy, Protestantism, and even more sects and denominations within these? Because of foundational differences in theology and the practice of faith.
Actually the trials in life are the place we find out the most about ourselves and God. If we don't have tribulations, we never grow either in faith or maturity. I agree that James didn't just mean trials out of church. In fact every one of us in this forum could likely attest to this truth. I am fully aware of the reasons for the denominations. I agree that it is likely that we all differ on doctinal basis, but I would add that factionalization of the church is hardly a good thing. If we are not united in the mission to spread the Gospel, we are weakker for the loss.
It is man's inherent arrogance and propensity to strife that causes these dissentions, not theology in itself. The pursuit of the study of God is noble and righteous. The pursuit of detractors for contention is not. I can only speak for myself, but in the threads that I post in on these forums, my intent is to first glorify God through the proclamation of his truth, second to edify my brethren, and lastly (but not least of all) to grow my own faith and understanding.
You said a mouthful here. I think we all sort of feel this way at least your last sentence. ...and while I agree that the pursuit of the study of God is noble, and right, I would add that all who study, no matter their doctrinal stance, are in fact our bretheren, and as such are to be given the respect Christ gives each of us. My point was basically that if it divides us it weakens us, not strengthens the body.
I would like to say that I could not care less about being right. But that's is not true. I do want to be right. But I want to glorify God, also. Sometimes, through the power of the Holy Spirit, I am able to maintain composure and act righteously. Sometimes, I lose my cool and respond with unnecessary candor. Sometimes, you can't tell the difference. ;)
It is human nature to desire to be right. It is our pride to insist that we are I think.
But I can, and so can God. I am accountable for those times when I act selfishly and not out of a desire to glorify God. For these, I repent in shame, and pray that God would humble me, more and more.
I would note that humilty cannot be reached if we are convinced of our own rightness. We are usually humbled to find we are wrong not when we scream that we are right.
And that is what Christian living is about. It's about growing in our relationship with God. He has shown me more amazing things in the past four months that I have been studying Reformed theology than I had learned in my entire 22 years of life before. His Spirit of revelation is astounding. I can't express how privileged I feel, knowing now, not just that my salvation was entirely his doing, but that my understanding of salvation was entirely his doing. Most Christians do not even come to grips with the truth of the Word. That is such an amazing revelation to me that words cannot express it. We Reformed believers are so abundantly blessed that his grace surpasses all words for the wisdom he has bestowed upon us.

Christain study has been so for me as well. God is truly faithful to his people.
I praise God for the wisdom and understanding that he has revealed to me through his Word by his Spirit. I praise God and give him all the glory for my salvation, my sanctification, and my justification. He is truly God Almighty. There is none who can stay his hand, or say unto him What are you doing? (Dan. 4:35).

Soli Deo Gloria (solely God's glory)

Jon

On this paragragh my friend, I would say you have hit the whole of the walk squarely on the head. We should stand humbled in His presence.

May He continue to bless you.
 
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