Calvinism Vs. Wesleyan Theology

[Paleoconservatarian]

My decision to leave calvinism was based on much study of theology and observation of the behavior of people who follow its theology. My personal walk during my time in a reformed church was much more legalistic than now; now the motivation I have to honor God and bear fruit is love. I heard the word 'grace' spoken a lot there, but saw much more pride than grace. The theological system at times seemed almost more important to its adherents than Christ. A friend of mine who abandoned reformed theology shortly after I did remarked that she felt so free in Christ's grace now that she no longer felt the need to prove her salvation by correct theology. Her remarks sum up my experience beautifully.

So you abandoned the theology because of its adherents, and not because of its truth. That excuse doesn't work when pagans discuss Christianity, why should it work within Christianity?

 

[alaurie]

So you abandoned the theology because of its adherents, and not because of its truth. That excuse doesn't work when pagans discuss Christianity, why should it work within Christianity?

Once again...

My decision to leave calvinism was based on much study of theology and observation of the behavior of people who follow its theology

I believe the two are intertwined.

 

[Astronaut]

So you abandoned the theology because of its adherents, and not because of its truth. That excuse doesn't work when pagans discuss Christianity, why should it work within Christianity?

Belief and practice go hand in hand. If an empericist sees bad practice, they must draw their conclusions and change their minds. Truth transforms people, if a certain theology changes people for the worse, it is not truth.

 

[Jon_]

Wesleyan doctrine is based entirely on grace.

I have total assurance of my salvation by grace through faith in Christ.

Amazing grace. How sweet the sound.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Beoga]

The only limiting factor to atonement is our acceptance of it. Christ did not limit His gift in any way.

except for the fact that it didn't accomplish anything without us accepting it...

 

[Beoga]

The more correct description would be:

Wesleyan: We are in a pit, Christ comes along, sees us in there, throws down a rope. At this point we either grab the rope or not, but the rope is there available at any time. The work is always 100% God.

except for the part where we grab hold of the rope and climb out

 

[Jon_]

Belief and practice go hand in hand. If an empericist sees bad practice, they must draw their conclusions and change their minds. Truth transforms people, if a certain theology changes people for the worse, it is not truth.

What is the truth?

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Astronaut]

What is the truth?

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

Look at Jesus. Not speculative theology the church has concocted about him and why he died.

 

[Jon_]

Look at Jesus. Not speculative theology the church has concocted about him and why he died.

Yes, look at Jesus. It was he that originally preached predestination and perseverance of the saints in the new covenant, after all:

(John 6:44) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

​

 

[Philip]

No, men truly think they do right by themselves, though they do not.

(Pro 16:2) All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weigheth the spirits.
​

No. It means that their lack of fruit shakes their assurance. This is the warning of Hebrews 10:26-27.

What, then, shakes their confidence if they believe that they are doing right?​

Anyone?​

 

[Jon_]

Anyone?

Sorry, I missed your original post. The answer is their human nature. We are a creature of guilt and shame. How can God possibly still love us, still preserve us even after we sin? we think. We only know that we have let him down. We have sinned and we are guilty of punishment. In life, that is precisely what happens if we wrong our parents. We are punished.

Even more, Satan uses sin as an opportunity to place doubts in our minds. "See!? You're not really a Christian. A Christian wouldn't sin." Or, "God hates sinners, you sinned, so you're a sinner! God hates you!" Our fallen minds, ridden with guilt and shame from our transgressions absorbs these lies all to easily. "Yes," we think, "I am a sinner. Sinners can't get into heaven. I must not be going to heaven now."

It's all a lie. A vicious deception intended to get Christians to stray.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Philip]

That doesn't answer the question. If, as you claimed Proverbs 16:2 treaches, a person is deceived into believing they are producing fruits, how can they perceive a lack of fruit that shakes their confidence in accordance with Hebrews 10:26-27?

 

[Jon_]

That doesn't answer the question. If, as you claimed Proverbs 16:2 treaches, a person is deceived into believing they are producing fruits, how can they perceive a lack of fruit that shakes their confidence in accordance with Hebrews 10:26-27?

Oh, I see your confusion. You are mixing different concepts. In Proverbs 16:2, it talks about natural man. Man justifies himself in his own eyes by his own arrogance. In Hebrews 10:26-27, it addresses believers, specifically. The beloved know their justification is in Christ. They also know that that justification comes by faith, which is manifested through works, just as James writes in his epistle. When a believer does not have works, he begins to doubt if the faith that produces works is even present. In short, the believer begins to doubt his faith.

It is this doubt that Satan exploits capitalizes on. It is this very doubt that the Bible teaches so strongly against. This is precisely why the Scriptures exhort us to exhibit living faith. Apart from living faith through works, we have no assurance, for how else do we ensure our belief in what we know? "Do I really believe something if I don't live it?" we ask ourselves. It is this living faith that assures us, but justification comes by faith alone.

It is this very topic that confuses so many people into believing that salvation is not assured. It is. It is our (human) assurance (of salvation) that is not.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[sinner/SAVED]

except for the fact that it didn't accomplish anything without us accepting it...

This is not a limitation that Christ placed on grace. This is a limitation of man.

 

[sinner/SAVED]

except for the part where we grab hold of the rope and climb out

We can't climb out. We are pulled out by Christ. But only if we grab the rope.

 

[Philip]

Oh, I see your confusion. You are mixing different concepts. In Proverbs 16:2, it talks about natural man. Man justifies himself in his own eyes by his own arrogance. In Hebrews 10:26-27, it addresses believers, specifically. The beloved know their justification is in Christ. They also know that that justification comes by faith, which is manifested through works, just as James writes in his epistle. When a believer does not have works, he begins to doubt if the faith that produces works is even present. In short, the believer begins to doubt his faith.

I still don't get it. How can someone be assured of salvation? How do they know that they are not a natural man justifying himself by his own arrogance?

 

[Jon_]

We can't climb out. We are pulled out by Christ. But only if we grab the rope.

I know it's an hackneyed argument, but it's only too applicable:

Can a dead man grab hold of a rope? (Natural man is dead in sin.)

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Jon_]

I still don't get it. How can someone be assured of salvation? How do they know that they are not a natural man justifying himself by his own arrogance?

Faith in Christ, dear Phillip.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Philip]

Faith in Christ, dear Phillip.

Aren't there people who think they have faith, but don't?

 

[alaurie]

I know it's an hackneyed argument, but it's only too applicable:

Can a dead man grab hold of a rope? (Natural man is dead in sin.)

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

The rope analogy is a poor one. All natural dead in the theoretical pit have a chance at life at the touch of the nail-scarred hand.