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Calvinism vs Arminian is a worldview debate

Discussion in 'Baptists' started by mikedsjr, Oct 29, 2015.

  1. Bluelion

    Bluelion Peace and Love

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    That verse you quoted fits with my answer. God judged them based on there heart before they were born or did any works good or bad. It says they had no works. Now you speak of hardening the heart of who He chooses Paul here is speaking of pharaoh who would not let the Jews go. Look at the story it says God harden his heart because he had already harden his heart against God on his own and because he would not repent but was stubborn God used him to show His own glory and harden his heart further. Show me in the Bible where God punishes some one who did not do anything at all? That is not the God I know nor is it justice, but you claim a just God deals in injustices. The story of cain and abel is no different than that of Jacob and Esau. Cain to was rejected because he had not made a choice. Esau was rejected because of who he was not for doing bad things but what was in his heart. Why is that so hard to understand? Or do you think God said I will just reject him for no reason at all. How is that in any way what Jesus tells us about God and who He is? You answer opens up all kinds of questions where i give answers that close the question but you reject them and preffer the open questions. You say I can't see and some one says well it is this and you say I can not see but I know its not that how do you know if you can not see in the first place? What is your answer then what reason did God have for rejecting him? Is none, welll that is not biblical and does not fit what we are told about God or the God I know. In fact we are told God has a reason for everything.

    It is so funny the other side was being accused of mysticism when that is what Calvinists here are preaching.

    Chinese have a saying how can you fill a cup which is already full, answer is you can't empty your cup. It Means how can you learn anything when you are so sure you already know the answer?
     
  2. Bluelion

    Bluelion Peace and Love

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    Funny so now i am easily insulted, you basically said i should find another school which it happens to be a top school but I bet you do not even have one degree in Bible studies do you. The dean of my college holds 7 advanced degrees all in Bible studies and your going to question his knowledge because you have a Bible and google? Then you say I should just accept it. Well excuse me for calling bull. There is a coffee mug I read which said please do not mistake your goggle search for my medical degree. You could replace medical with any one of the degrees. Fact is google does not come close to the quality education you get in college if it did there would be no more colleges. I know people can be lead by The Holy Spirit, but The Holy Spirit is not going to trash my school and degree program that He called me to do. That is how I know it is your words or opinion and not The Holy Spirit. Yes you have a right to your opinion, I however, do not care in the least. I want to Know what God says what the Truth is. I don't care what you think I care what the Truth is.

    BTW I am not mad in the least or even up set. People tend to think you're mad or upset because you tell the truth and they are mad or upset that is projection. I am not letting it get to me i don't care. If people want to discuss fine, let's sit down and figure it out, but if people want to argue with insults and irrational claims like you made. I don't have time for that nor will i waste my time. The claim about my school is what I am referring to. So thanks for not upsetting me after you insult me, and then label me as being easily upset or would sensitive be the word? I am sensitive you know who else was Jesus. so thanks.
     
  3. Bluelion

    Bluelion Peace and Love

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    It is funny everyone says I am easily offended while they are offend at the matter of fact way I speak. You know God called people fools you know you can not call some one who says there is no God a fool on this site even though that is what God called them. Talk about God complex, they are correcting God's speech. way to Go. what a joke. I am still not mad. I am actually laughing because it is so ridiculous.
     
  4. royal priest

    royal priest debtor to grace

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    My friend, God's mercy is the only reason He chooses to give eternal life. He is not attracted by one man over another.

    1. We have a bad record. When Adam sinned, we all sinned and deserve to go to Hell because of him. Romans 5:12
    Therefore, even from birth, before we do anything, we are already guilty in Adam Psalms 51:5.

    2. Our hearts are very, very bad Jeremiah 17:9, Matthew 15:19. There is no such thing as God being attracted by our hearts. Rather, He has reason to be repulsed by every one of us Psalms 14:2-3. By nature we are children of wrath. Ephesians 2:3.

    This is the case with every man except for Jesus Christ. Therefore, it would include the records and hearts of both Esau and Jacob. If God chooses a man, it is not because of the condition of his heart, but rather, in spite of it Ezekiel 36:26, Ezekiel 36:32.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2016
  5. PrettyboyAndy

    PrettyboyAndy • Andy • Supporter

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    Great post couldn't have said it any better
     
  6. ladodgers6

    ladodgers6 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Look Bluelion,you are accusing me of something I did not do.I gave you advice,and challenged you to research it for yourself,that's all.And I will not engage in a silly nasty name calling with you.Either lets debate the topics or not.
    Well I do care about the truth.I responded to your Free-Will topic and all you can talk about is your college.Speak to the topics and make a argument,instead of accusing me of something I did not do! Can you do that or not?
    Look you are upset,settle down and focus on the topics at hand.I did not insult your school or you BTW.You for whatever reason want to take this out of context.If I insult you you would know it.And I would admit it.So again I was giving you advice,to research what ANYONE says for yourself,that's all.Now do you want to discuss theology?
     
  7. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

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    I've come to this discussion very late. This assessment of Arminianism starting with man and working up to God is a myth. Roger E Olson has exposed this in 'Myth 6: Armianism Is a Human-Centered Theology' (Olson 2006:137-157). His sub-heading is, 'An optimistic anthropology is alien to true Arminianism, which is thoroughly God-centered. Arminian theology confesses human depravity, including bondage of the will' (Olson 2006:137).

    Olson is professor of theology at George W. Truett Theological Seminary of Baylor University, Waco Texas, a Southern Baptist Seminary.

    He demonstrates from the writings of Arminians and Scripture that it is false to claim that Arminianism starts with man and works to God (Olson 2006:137-157).

    Olson quotes Arminius from his 'Declaration of Sentiments', which was delivered to Dutch state officials a year before his death. Of human beings, Arminius wrote:

    I could provide much more evidence to demonstrate that it is false for you to claim that 'The Arminian starts with man and works up to God' (your statement). Here is one more from the Works of Arminius. In his statement on ‘Grace and Freewill’, which was in a ‘Letter to Hippolytus A Collibus’, Arminius wrote:

    I think it's time that you got down to serious reading of the The Works of James Arminius, instead of shooting from the top of your head or feeding us what you think he believed. Roger Olson has shown from the writings of Arminius and Arminians that there are many myths in the evangelical world about what Arminius and Arminians believe.

    Works consulted
    Olson, R E 2006. Arminian Theology: Myths and Realities. Downers Grove, Illinois: IVP Academic.

    Oz
     
  8. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

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    It's time you read Arminius to determine what Arminians believe. What you say with these two sentences is false. Arminians believe in the one Lord God Almighty. Read Arminius, Simon Episcopius, John Wesley, Thomas Oden, Roger Olson, etc.

    Oz
     
  9. Bluelion

    Bluelion Peace and Love

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    so what your explanation God did it at random? God just spun a wheel and the arrow landed of Jacob and so He had mercy. Sorry if I find that hard to believe that an all knowing God acts at random, but wait we are told God does everything for a reason.

    Ecclesiastes 3 11 Yet God has made everything beautiful for its own time. He has planted eternity in the human heart, but even so, people cannot see the whole scope of God’s work from beginning to end.

    Funny how I look for one thing and find another. It seems the hearts are not all so bad if God planted eternity in them. Yes all have sinned and fallen short but that in no way means all are lost. If you say well God took this group and said oh well you I will save and not this group well that goes against God's own Word. John the Baptist said in the book of John. Behold The Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. Not the elect the world. anyone can chose God and be forgiven, but why don't people well God tells us that also because what they love is sin. They don't want God. So wait if there is no difference in a man's heart then all would be lost or all would come to God. But God tells us there is a difference some love sin. Sorry either the Bible conflicts or your understanding of God does.

    Oh your preaching total depravity. gottcha. While I believe man can do nothing to save Him self and all have fallen short. I do believe there are some people who love sin and those who do not. The whole one sin is the same in God's eyes only means the punishment is death for all sin. But there is different punishments for different sins. Case in point there are unforgivable sins so all sin is not the same and yet it is the same. But say satan punishment is not the same as the man who was a thief who dies with out Jesus. even in are own courts its not the same so why would God's be? and every man shall be judged according to his works. and yet it is also the same punishment because both are dead forever.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2016
  10. Bluelion

    Bluelion Peace and Love

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    You just can't stop your self can you.

    You said this If this is what you are learning in your school,then you really need to gather all the resources you can off the web to better understand Calvinism.

    So google would be a better place to understand Calvinism then my school? You don't think that is arrogant, you don't think that is insulting. Like i said please don't mistake your google search for my college degree. Over half the information on the web is false or incorrect in some way. Did you know that? I can not even use sources from the web in most of my classes I have to go to the Library and read books and use books.

    I don't know can we get back to topic because your the one attacking me. Fact I have not called you one name, so I don't know where you get the name calling thing? Do you know what truth is? ... and now your going to tell me what I am feeling saying I am upset. You know the first rule of psychology is you can not tell another person how they feel, you are not God. In fact narcissist love to do this. Any thing else you would like to tell me about my self?
     
  11. PrettyboyAndy

    PrettyboyAndy • Andy • Supporter

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    God planting eternity in the human heart: - That is not a salvation or election verse.
    a) We have a sense of eternity in our lives; we possess an innate knowledge that there is something more to life than what we can see and experience in the here and now.
    b) The larger context of the chapter aids our understanding of verse 11. Ecclesiastes 3:1 says, “There is a time for everything, / and a season for every activity under the heavens.” The next seven verses list a series of contrasts: love and hate, scattering and gathering, tearing and mending, weeping and laughter. Then comes verse 11, which begins, “He has made everything beautiful in its time.” In other words, life is comprised of opposite experiences in balance; God has appointed each to its season. Each season is to be considered as part of a whole.


    a) The World refers to Gentile and Jews alike


    For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it. James:210
     
  12. mikedsjr

    mikedsjr Master Newbie

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    No there isn't. But there is salvation through the True God despite our imperfect understanding of him.

    I'm not going to judge a Christian's salvation based on their ignorance of God. I would continue to converse with them on the subject.
     
  13. mikedsjr

    mikedsjr Master Newbie

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    I have not. What is it based from?
     
  14. Thursday

    Thursday Well-Known Member

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    The Catholic Church straddles this gap.

    The two extremes not permissible for a Catholic to teach are:

    1) God predestines some men to Hell
    2) Man can by his own efforts save himself

    Here are the relevant quotes from the Catechism:

    1998 This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God's gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.47

    1037 God predestines no one to go to hell;620 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end.
     
  15. mikedsjr

    mikedsjr Master Newbie

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    Maybe they weren't pointless and mindless. That was a bit emotionalistic response by me. I might try to study them but not yet. If you let me know the groups I'll place them in my notes.

    I don't believe all the RC church held to was wrong. Corruption was there at the time. Maybe they felt they were forced to throw the baby out with the bath water to start fresh.
     
  16. ladodgers6

    ladodgers6 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    How is that a insult? Because obviously by your own comments on Calvinism's teaching of Free-Will,is incorrect.You are misrepresenting it.So I suggested that you research it yourself.Did I get irate with you because you are caricaturing Calvinism?You need to stop the drama and either answer the points I presented to you,or kindly decline to debate. Does your school have a website? Does your school post articles on line? Did you know that almost any book written can be found on the web? I never attacked you or insulted you.I think and this is my opinion that I am entitled too.That you do not want to address my points because they pose a challenge for you.This is a debate and nothing more for me.I'm not here to insult anyone,but to debate the topics.I think I have cleared this up,more then a couple of times.But even though I had cleared it up,you insist that I am wrong and that I did insult you.Its you that is pushing the issue of me so-call attacking you.That never happened.So please,I would rather we not engage in any discussion moving forward.Thanks,have a great day.
     
  17. twin1954

    twin1954 Baptist by the Bible

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    My old Pappy told me when I was young to never engage in a battle of wits with some one who is unarmed. :)
     
  18. Bluelion

    Bluelion Peace and Love

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    sorry that does not change the fact there are different punishments for different sins or anything i said about that. Like I said all it is saying is sin is the same in that it brings death, not that all sins are equal and punished the same.

    Yes the world refers to Jew and Gentile it refers to the world. Elmer Towns Also said In the book of John and his book about Jesus died for the world. That the blood of the Lamb was for a person, then the Blood of the Lamb Adam and Eve for clothes was for a family, Passover, The The Blood of the Lamb was for a Nation day of atonement. Then the Blood of the Lamb was for the whole world The Cross.(Towns, Elmer, John believe and Live). So no the world does not mean the elect and it does not mean that in the Greek either. You can not make up what words mean, which you are doing.
     
  19. Bluelion

    Bluelion Peace and Love

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    So stop responding if you don't wish to engaged. In fact like i said your so called point are opinions which I don't care about I care about truth. You can find almost any book on the web That is a lie. I know for a fact. and lets be clear I am speaking of a web search and not going to a library online. Which you have to be part of the school to go into college libraries.
     
  20. twin1954

    twin1954 Baptist by the Bible

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    Yes Mr. Towns is well known for his dishonesty when dealing with Calvinism. He, as the dean of the college you attend, should be more intellectually honest in his definitions of what Calvinists are and believe. He has labeled us as cultists and set us aside Islam. How dishonest can you get? His caricatures of Calvinism is not only blatantly dishonest but for a man who is as highly educated as he is just plain lying.
     
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