Calvinism Refuted

[Hammster]

In your siggy: 'Whom He foreknew He predestined'

So we are back to this. God doesn't call everyone...just the elect.

 

[archierieus]

So we are back to this. God doesn't call everyone...just the elect.

Indeed, continuing to narrow down the issues. Here is an accuracy issue:

1) The verse does not say that God only called the elect. The passage indeed is focusing on believers.

2) Romans 8 pertains to believers, and that is the context of vv. 29, 30.

3) To determine if God calls others besides the elect, one would need to look elsewhere in Scripture.

 

[Hammster]

Indeed, continuing to narrow down the issues. Here is an accuracy issue:

1) The verse does not say that God only called the elect. The passage indeed is focusing on believers.

2) Romans 8 pertains to believers, and that is the context of vv. 29, 30.

3) To determine if God calls others besides the elect, one would need to look elsewhere in Scripture.

My versions don't say that some of whom He called He justified. It is a very specific statement whose theme is running from v. 28 on through.

 

[Benoni]

Who are the elect? The Overcomers. There are two types of people in the Book of Revelation; the Overcomer and everyone else.

Just because you are heir to salvation does not make you the elect.

Notice there is a distinction between the great multitudes BEFORE the throne (Rev. 7:9) in comparison to the overcomer who Christ will grant to sit with me on my throne (Rev. 3:21) .

Rev. 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Rev. 3: 21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

 

[Hammster]

Who are the elect? The Overcomers. There are two types of people in the Book of Revelation; the Overcomer and everyone else.

Just because you are heir to salvation does not make you the elect.

Notice there is a distinction between the great multitudes BEFORE the throne (Rev. 7:9) in comparison to the overcomer who Christ will grant to sit with me on my throne (Rev. 3:21) .

Rev. 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Rev. 3: 21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

So we are the ones electing? I guess that makes God the elect.

 

[archierieus]

My versions don't say that some of whom He called He justified. It is a very specific statement whose theme is running from v. 28 on through.

It says that who He foreknew He predestined, and who He predestined He also called, and who He called He justified, etc.

As you pointed out, ALL He foreknew He predestined, and ALL whom He foreknew and predestined He also called, and ALL whom He foreknew and predestined and called He also justified, etc.

The passage does not address the situation of others besides those whom God foreknew. The chapter does not address it. It is addressed elsewhere.

 

[Hammster]

It says that who He foreknew He predestined, and who He predestined He also called, and who He called He justified, etc.

As you pointed out, ALL He foreknew He predestined, and ALL whom He foreknew and predestined He also called, and ALL whom He foreknew and predestined and called He also justified, etc.

The passage does not address the situation of others besides those whom God foreknew. The chapter does not address it. It is addressed elsewhere.

Since it says that who He called He justified, it excludes any other calling, except maybe a general call. This cannot be talking about a general call because God doesn't justify everyone.

I grant that this doesn't explicitly address the situation of others beside those whom He foreknew, but it does implicitly address it because only those who are justified are called.

 

[Benoni]

So we are the ones electing? I guess that makes God the elect.

How does that make God the elect?

No. If God does not call you you cannot come.
Jesus gave the most marvelous illustration for the proper attitude of His servants, in Luke 22:27. "For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth." Ah, consider this the next time that God provides you with an opportunity to share of the living Word. Perhaps with your neighbor as you visit out in the yard-- you are the servant, they are as the guest sitting at meat, you have the lowly position, they are the honored ones. That is the balancing attitude for our servant ship, even though we are to reign as kings and priests unto our God. That is new covenant humility!

"His servants shall serve Him: And they shall see His face; and His name shall be in their foreheads." (Revelation 22:3-4).

There will be no divided allegiance. There will be no divided interests-- His, and theirs. For His name, His character, all that He is shall be fully written in their foreheads. "I will put My laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to Me a people." (Hebrews 8:10).

Not only are the first fruits of the new covenant generation called a SEED, and called a SERVANT, but they are also referred to as "Mine elect." The word literally means: to be chosen. And never is the operation of NEW COVENANT GRACE seen more clearly, than when it comes to God's choosing a people for Himself. "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." (Romans 9:15-16).

We are chosen-- not because of anything in us, no merit, no desirableness, for we all have "sinned, and come short of the glory of God." Nevertheless, in mercy He says, "Ye have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain." (John 15:16).

He blinds whom He blinds, and He chooses whom He wills, not on a whim, nor with caprice, but in infinite wisdom, as He works all things together after the counsel of His own will, and with a view towards the goal when ultimately "in Christ shall ALL be made alive." Praise His name!

Called a seed, called a servant, called His chosen, they are also spoken of as "an INHERITOR of My mountains." The Hebrew word for "inheritor" is "yarash" meaning: to occupy, be in possession; and holds within it the thought of driving out any previous tenants, so as to possess their place

 

[chestertonrules]

"Ye have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain." (John 15:16).

This verse is specifically addressed to the disciples, not to you and I.

 

[Benoni]

This verse is specifically addressed to the disciples, not to you and I.

You can dismiss it all you want to; when ever God speaks in His Word He speaks to all of us. Does not matter if he is addressing Moses, or Peter or Paul.

1 Corin 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (age) are come. example

Example: NT:5178 a : Strong’s: tupikos (toop-ee-kos'); an adverb related to NT:5179; found only in 1 Cor 10:11: as a warning, by way of example, typologically (i.e. figuratively, as a prophetic type, a typological interpretation of Scripture)

 

[Benoni]

Moses was anointed by God which is pretty obvious; God did not put Moses on this earth so we can have a nice Bible story; which I love to read to my granddaughter. He put him here so we can understand who this awesome God really is.

Psalm 103:7
He made known his ways unto Moses, his acts unto the children of Israel.

Moses knew God face to face; not like the children of Israel who knew only God’s acts. The blind lead the blind in religion today; they know only the acts…

 

[heymikey80]

Nope. I decided to double check a few other sources. As it reads, the verse says: Whoever is believing that Jesus is the Christ is born of God. That is how I rendered it, that is how the major versions such as NASB, NIV, NKJV, KJV etc render it. The tense is not against the position at all. And in checking various sources regarding the thrust of what John is saying here, they concur.

Sorry, no. The tense forces precedence in both intensive and extensive cases. The argument against it from an English translation is vacuous.

The sole reason not to accept the tense as it stands is eisegesis.

John puts believing in the continuing sense, as I noticed, there is NO discussion of when the believing began or how. As one student put it, the attempt to make born of God precedental in this verse is eisegesis. That was my take on it also. The textual evidence simply is not there. Once again, John is dealing with a heresy and showing how believing in Jesus as the Messiah is evidence of the validty of a person's faith.

This is cute, but it's a bait & switch. The present participle is qualified by the verb, which declares the prior action in perfect tense. In other words, the continuing statement of the participle is preceded temporally by the perfect verb.

"Bob had gone to the store" means that Bob went to the store in the past. It precedes Bob's present state, temporally. "The one writing had gone to the store" again forces the precedent that before that, the one writing went to the store. The trip to the store preceded the writing.

And the birth of God preceded believing.

It is necessary to do so. Different actors. The individual is the one who believes, God is the one Who starts the new life. Believing in Jesus as Messiah is evidence of the validity of the new life.

It's only necessary to do so for those who presuppose the actors to be independent. But any coherent meaning to the sentence summons against that presupposition. "Whoever believes ... has been born of God." The clause has a verb in it. It also has a subject in it. The verb operates on the subject. =shrug=. The idea that it's necessary to deviate with this clause, with two actors, is purely the injection of a demanded independence. It begs the question. And it attacks the basic sentence structure of language.

The clause demands the relation between the actors. God bears; and those are the people who are believing.

Nope, it is not a violation of recognized rules of grammar. It IS a violation of a presupposition. But that presupposition is not in the verse, and basing treatment of the verse on that presupposition is eisegesis.

It's a violation of grammar, not presupposition. "Whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ" makes no point at all on its own. It requires the verb.

Incorrect. He speaks elsewhere in this letter about the RESULTS of being born of God, as evidenced in a changed life. That does NOT address the issue of heresy. Heresy is one of a number of issues John speaks to. The entire letter is not about heresy, nor is it about being born again. Many subjects are covered.

John certainly does address the issue of heresy with this clause. John's not simply saying "there's a heresy", and then in the same sentences, talking completely separately about another subject, the results of being born of God. If you check the other references, they're embedded among John's exposure of the heresy. John is focused on helping the church with the heresy. John's explaining "these are the heretics to avoid, and these are the people to trust." He does so by identifying those who are born of God, and those who are not.

Who's out, who's in. John's identifying them. "born of God" is "in".

Not gerrymandered at all, nor is the term apposite. John deals with a variety of issues in the early church. The terminology may very well overlap, in different applications.

It's gerrymandering, as demonstrated above. "Whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ" makes no point at all.

Quite the opposite:

1) The grammar says, as the major translations put it, whoever is believing in Jesus as Messiah is born again.

ESV, NRSV, and NLT have corrected for the modern deviation of terms. Many more recent translations have pushed it to "are God's child", simply ducking the whole issue by not translating it directly. Literal translations have had it in perfect tense for awhile -- they're literal, after all. And of course, appealing to translations is rather futile when you simply read the Greek -- Nestle, UBS, no matter, they're all the same temporal inflection.

2) The context is dealing with heresy and evidence that a person is a true believer.

It sure is. Distinguishing heretic from the one born of God. believing is a result of that birth, tracing to a cause. The tense points this out. That's what it does. tense is all about temporal precedence.

As long as you're never allowed to appeal to tenses to make your point, I might relent. Otherwise -- your argument is drowning in inconsistency.

The construction is interestingly far, far more lock-tight than the pervasively appealed-to John 3:16.

So enjoy your deviation from the grammar. Of course your sources must also deviate from the grammar. They're compelled to, to preserve their case.

They're biased.

3) The terminology is used both in the Johannine epistles, in John's gospel and elsewhere, in a variety of applications.

Find "born of God". There's precisely one other instance beyond what I've quoted. It's not in any of the Johannine epistles. It occurs once in the Gospel.

Not variety.

Incorrect. Although I double and triple checked a number of varied sources. 'Reasonable exegesis' does not support what you are trying to make the verse say.

Reasonable exegesis does support its tense, context, and terminology -- and all converge against the mistake of considering it otherwise.

 

[heymikey80]

The passage does not address the situation of others besides those whom God foreknew. The chapter does not address it. It is addressed elsewhere.

Paul declared such people "called according to his purpose" in the chapter, directly ahead of the passage. The people in scope are identified as the people called.

In whatever way Paul meant "called" in Romans 8, it is much more than what's meant by the general call.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by archierieus 3) The terminology is used both in the Johannine epistles, in John's gospel and elsewhere, in a variety of applications.

Find "born of God". There's precisely one other instance beyond what I've quoted. It's not in any of the Johannine epistles. It occurs once in the Gospel.

Not variety.

Hey mikey. What other instance is that if I may ask. Thanks.

 

[archierieus]

Since it says that who He called He justified, it excludes any other calling, except maybe a general call. This cannot be talking about a general call because God doesn't justify everyone.

I grant that this doesn't explicitly address the situation of others beside those whom He foreknew, but it does implicitly address it because only those who are justified are called.

KIM that the terminology you are using apparently is from a Calvinist perspective--that is, 'general call' vs. a special call to the elect. Taking the passage as it reads, one should include v. 28, "All things work together for good for those who love the Lord, for those who are called according to His purpose."

Note the FIRST specification is 'those who love the Lord.' That sets the parameters for the exposition which follows. Those who love the Lord are the ones who are called according to His purpose, and it follows from there. The passage pertains to those who love the Lord.

Does everyone love the Lord? Obviously not. But they are not discussed in this passage. Does that mean God does not reach out to them? This passage does not get into that question. It is, however, discussed elsewhere. As for those who love the Lord, "We love Him because He first loved us." 1 Jn. 5. God loves all. Not everyone loves Him in return.

 

[archierieus]

Hey mikey. What other instance is that if I may ask. Thanks.

As for this particular form of the word, there are four other occurrences:

1 Jn. 2:29
1 Jn. 3:9 born of God
1 Jn. 4:7 born of God
Gal. 4:23

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

As for this particular form of the word, there are four other occurrences:

1 Jn. 2:29
1 Jn. 3:9
1 Jn. 4:7
Gal. 4:23

That is what I come up with also and why I asked him about it
This is from the W-H

gegennhtai <1080> (5769) used 5 times. 1 time in Gala 4:23, 4 times in 1 John

 

[archierieus]

Sorry, no. The tense forces precedence in both intensive and extensive cases. The argument against it from an English translation is vacuous.

Probably at this point it will help to do some serious study. In the balance of your post you have made a number of statements or assertions about the grammar. Please provide cites. Also, of particular interest to me is your understanding of the morphology here. Please be so kind as to parse the verb, translated 'believes' in 1 Jn. 5:1.

Dave

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Probably at this point it will help to do some serious study. In the balance of your post you have made a number of statements or assertions about the grammar. Please provide cites. Also, of particular interest to me is your understanding of the morphology here. Please be so kind as to parse the verb, translated 'believes' in 1 Jn. 5:1.

Dave

Interesting this form of the word is used only in John of the Gospels

G'night all........

1 John 5:1 Every the one believing/pisteuwn <4100> (5723) that Jesus is the Christ out of the God has been begotten and every the one loving the one begetting is loving also the one having been begotten from/out of Him.

o pisteuwn Present Activie Nom Sing

One believing. This form used 24 times in NT. Only in John, Acts, Romans, 1 Peter and 1 John.

 

[archierieus]

Interesting this form of the word is used only in John of the Gospels

1 John 5:1 Every the one believing/pisteuwn <4100> (5723) that Jesus is the Christ out of the God has been begotten and every the one loving the one begetting is loving also the one having been begotten from/out of Him.

o pisteuwn Present Activie Nom Sing

One believing. This form used 24 times in NT. Only in John, Acts, Romans, 1 Peter and 1 John.

Let's see how Heymikey parses the word. It is interesting that John uses it so often.