Calvinism Refuted

[nobdysfool]

Rhetoric is a statement which is not factual. The statement you are referring to addresses the occurence of particular words in a sentence. Such would not be rhetoric.

It appears the dictionary does not concur with your definition of the word rhetoric:



Rhetoric
Function: noun Etymology: Middle English rethorik, from Anglo-French rethorique, from Latin rhetorica, from Greek rhētorikē, literally, art of oratory, from feminine of rhētorikos of an orator, from rhētōr orator, rhetorician, from eirein to say, speak — more at word Date: 14th century 1: the art of speaking or writing effectively: as a: the study of principles and rules of composition formulated by critics of ancient times b: the study of writing or speaking as a means of communication or persuasion 2 a: skill in the effective use of speech b: a type or mode of language or speech ; also : insincere or grandiloquent language3: verbal communication : discourse


Herein I think we see the source of the problem in pinning down anything that Arch says. Unique definitions of words, and a constant excuse-making. He is respectful in his use of these items, but it appears to be sincerely evasive. In a broad sense, holding to the proper definition of the word, everything every person has said both for and against in all of these debates can be properly termed rhetoric, even every word of Arch's...

His statement as to what rhetoric is, is at best, item 2c in the above definition from Merriam Webster.

Let's drop the poorly defined terms being used as pejoratives (and that is the way Arch has used the accusation of rhetoric, which is itself prejudicial rhetoric), and quit the evasiveness. Especially, let's quit using prejudicial rhetoric, when non-prejudicial rhetoric is more in keeping with the rules of this forum, and allows the reader/listener to make up their own minds, instead of being forced one way or the other.

 

[Hammster]

Arch, because I really hate long posts as a general rule, and it starts to get cumbersome when each party starts to answer every sentence with a paragraph, I am going to try to start over with a simple question.

In Romans 8:30, what exactly is meant by "whom He called He also justified"?

 

[archierieus]

Arch, because I really hate long posts as a general rule, and it starts to get cumbersome when each party starts to answer every sentence with a paragraph, I am going to try to start over with a simple question.

In Romans 8:30, what exactly is meant by "whom He called He also justified"?

That has already been responded to fairly recently in this thread, post #2153. 'Whom He called' is discussed in the first part of that post. That is, within the immediate context of Romans 8, which speaks about believers in Jesus, 'whom He called' are the ones He foreknew, whom He predestined. 'Justified' has not yet been addressed as a term. Is that what you are looking for?

'Justification' so far as I understand the term Paul uses in Romans, means quite literally 'acquittal,' that is a judicial finding of not guilty. Paul connects it with believing in Jesus, in ch. 3, and the forgiveness of sins that are in the past. The sequence, then, would appear to be: hearing the gospel message, which involves, according to the gospels and the book of Acts, to repent of sins and accept Jesus as Savior, responding to that gospel message by renouncing sin and accepting Christ as Substitute and Lord. Those who do so are justified by God. Therefore, to understand the term 'justified' as used by Paul in ch. 8, it is necessary to go back earlier in the letter to see what Paul means by his use of the term.

Dave

 

[archierieus]

It appears the dictionary does not concur with your definition of the word rhetoric

Good dictionary definition you have cited here. Although the word does have a different shade of meaning as well, that is persuasive argumentation as an alternative to facts. When I think of the word 'rhetoric,' I am thinking of it as the opposite of 'doing science.' Not the data as they read, but assertions and opinions. And mixing facts with unsupported argument. Perhaps there is a more accurate word for that, but that is a meaning I am familiar with, and have seen the word used that way in reference to discussions and debates. To me, the word as used that way is not intended to suggest dishonesty or grandiloquence, but simply as a recognition that a position statement goes beyond the facts as they read.

quit the evasiveness.

There is no intent to be evasive on the part of this student. Accuracy and thoroughness are sought-after goals, however, and those can take huge amounts of time, which is in very short supply.

For this student, the goal is: the facts, all the facts and NOTHING but the facts. I, too, without a doubt will state my own opinions, but I try to keep them separate from the facts, and expect to be called on it when I don't.

 

[nobdysfool]

Good dictionary definition you have cited here. Although the word does have a different shade of meaning as well, that is persuasive argumentation as an alternative to facts. When I think of the word 'rhetoric,' I am thinking of it as the opposite of 'doing science.' Not the data as they read, but assertions and opinions. And mixing facts with unsupported argument. Perhaps there is a more accurate word for that, but that is a meaning I am familiar with. To me, the word as used that way is not intended to suggest dishonesty or grandiloquence, but simply as a recognition that a position statement goes beyond the facts as they read.

Rhetoric does not have to be the "opposite of doing science". Expounding on the facts is not rhetoric in your definition of the term, but is rhetoric in that one is expounding on the facts presented. At some point, one must draw conclusions from facts, as presented, or identify the relevant facts that have not been presented.

What I have seen here is a dismissiveness that is not supported. If you do not have access to the abundant reference materials that you continue to refer to, then it is hardly helpful to dismiss what you perceive as an opposing viewpoint, since by your own admission, you don't have the requisite materials handy to mount a defense or critique.

I have recently reloaded my laptop with a larger hard drive, and a fresh install of the OS, and I'm still reloading the Bible reference materials I have had for quite some time. In fact, I will get the majority of it loaded tonight, since I am sitting in a hotel room with nothing much to do but that. I can understand not having reference materials, handy, but it wears thin as an excuse very quickly.

The most of the defenses and arguments against Calvinism have been of the "it doesn't seem fair" variety, which is highly subjective, as well as an indication of a very shallow knowledge of the Bible. That is not directed at you. You don't fit that description.

There is no intent to be evasive on the part of this student. Accuracy and thoroughness are sought-after goals, however, and those can take huge amounts of time, which is in very short supply.

Which is why every so often I post the old saying, "It is better to remain silent, and be thought a fool, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt."

For this student, the goal is: the facts, all the facts and NOTHING but the facts. I, too, without a doubt will state my own opinions, but I try to keep them separate from the facts, and expect to be called on it when I don't.

Commendable. But at some point, opinion, hopefully based on facts, must be stated. All Theology is, in reality, opinion. We will all learn a great deal once we are with the Lord. I have a hunch that when that day comes, we will look back on these days and realize we were all like the blind men trying to describe an elephant.....

 

[&Abel]

Acts 10

34(AR)Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that (AS)God is not one to show partiality, 35but (AT)in every nation the man who (AU)fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.

 

[&Abel]

Acts 8

9Now there was a man named Simon, who formerly was practicing (M)magic in the city and astonishing the people of Samaria, (N)claiming to be someone great;
10and they all, from smallest to greatest, were giving attention to him, saying, "(O)This man is what is called the Great Power of God."
11And they were giving him attention because he had for a long time astonished them with his (P)magic arts.
12But when they believed Philip (Q)preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being (R)baptized, men and women alike.
13Even Simon himself believed; and after being baptized, he continued on with Philip, and as he observed (S)signs and (T)great miracles taking place, he was constantly amazed.
14Now when (U)the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them (V)Peter and John,
15who came down and prayed for them (W)that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
16For He had (X)not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been (Y)baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
17Then they (Z)began laying their hands on them, and they were (AA)receiving the Holy Spirit.



belief from those who did not personally see Jesus and yet believed BEFORE receiving the Spirit of Grace

 

[&Abel]

Acts 10

34(AR)Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that (AS)God is not one to show partiality, 35but (AT)in every nation the man who (AU)fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.

 

[cygnusx1]

But why use the term 'elect'? Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.

I see what's happening here , you (and other Calvinist's are asking DIRECT questions , and we are getting a page full of none answers ......


the answers all have one thing in common , they all look for the lowest common denominator , ie, they speak only of the most simple basic Biblical truths any Christian would agree with (elemental truths) and try to pass these off as meat , using decorative words to enforce the idea of substance ... page after page of these NONE-answers.


eg;

I ask if the sky is blue and why is the sky blue ; all of a sudden some post the sun is of great use to everyone........



then when this is pointed out by asking for MORE , it's dismissed as "we already answered that one" ... the tactics are hilarious!

this thread is DODGE CITY !

 

[drstevej]

Calvinism is still un-refuted and will be when the grammars in the garage are unboxed, all the contextual filibusters are ended, every dispensational chart has been unrolled.

Christ rules with a rod of iron NOT a time telescope.




.

 

[DD2008]

Calvinism is still un-refuted and will be when the grammars in the garage are unboxed, all the contextual filibusters are ended, every dispensational chart has been unrolled.

Christ rules with a rod of iron NOT a time telescope.




.

 

[Hammster]

That has already been responded to fairly recently in this thread, post #2153. 'Whom He called' is discussed in the first part of that post. That is, within the immediate context of Romans 8, which speaks about believers in Jesus, 'whom He called' are the ones He foreknew, whom He predestined. 'Justified' has not yet been addressed as a term. Is that what you are looking for?

'Justification' so far as I understand the term Paul uses in Romans, means quite literally 'acquittal,' that is a judicial finding of not guilty. Paul connects it with believing in Jesus, in ch. 3, and the forgiveness of sins that are in the past. The sequence, then, would appear to be: hearing the gospel message, which involves, according to the gospels and the book of Acts, to repent of sins and accept Jesus as Savior, responding to that gospel message by renouncing sin and accepting Christ as Substitute and Lord. Those who do so are justified by God. Therefore, to understand the term 'justified' as used by Paul in ch. 8, it is necessary to go back earlier in the letter to see what Paul means by his use of the term.

Dave

I understand what justified means. That isn't the issue. The issue is what does Paul mean when he uses the term "called" in verse 30. It would seem that since those who were called were justified, that "those" is a limited group, since we agree that not all are justified. You, however, want to make an argument that the non-elect are not mentioned, so we don't know if they are called. Or something like that.

But the question is why use the term 'called' in this passage? This cannot refer to a general call, but must refer to something more specific. You don't seem to want to address it, but would rather address everything around it. You have mentioned that it is those who are foreknown who are called, and I will even grant your definition of foreknowledge for the sake of argument.

What I am trying to get across is that this is specific type of calling, which must be different from a general call. I know that you are trying to work in the verse somehow that man has to make a decision to be called, and the passage does not allow that.

 

[&Abel]

Acts 8

9Now there was a man named Simon, who formerly was practicing (M)magic in the city and astonishing the people of Samaria, (N)claiming to be someone great;
10and they all, from smallest to greatest, were giving attention to him, saying, "(O)This man is what is called the Great Power of God."
11And they were giving him attention because he had for a long time astonished them with his (P)magic arts.
12But when they believed Philip (Q)preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being (R)baptized, men and women alike.
13Even Simon himself believed; and after being baptized, he continued on with Philip, and as he observed (S)signs and (T)great miracles taking place, he was constantly amazed.
14Now when (U)the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them (V)Peter and John,
15who came down and prayed for them (W)that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
16For He had (X)not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been (Y)baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
17Then they (Z)began laying their hands on them, and they were (AA)receiving the Holy Spirit.



belief from those who did not personally see Jesus and yet believed BEFORE receiving the Spirit of Grace

 

[&Abel]

Acts 8

9Now there was a man named Simon, who formerly was practicing (M)magic in the city and astonishing the people of Samaria, (N)claiming to be someone great;
10and they all, from smallest to greatest, were giving attention to him, saying, "(O)This man is what is called the Great Power of God."
11And they were giving him attention because he had for a long time astonished them with his (P)magic arts.
12But when they believed Philip (Q)preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being (R)baptized, men and women alike.
13Even Simon himself believed; and after being baptized, he continued on with Philip, and as he observed (S)signs and (T)great miracles taking place, he was constantly amazed.
14Now when (U)the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them (V)Peter and John,
15who came down and prayed for them (W)that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
16For He had (X)not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been (Y)baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
17Then they (Z)began laying their hands on them, and they were (AA)receiving the Holy Spirit.



belief from those who did not personally see Jesus and yet believed BEFORE receiving the Spirit of Grace

 

[&Abel]

 

[Hammster]

Acts 8

9Now there was a man named Simon, who formerly was practicing (M)magic in the city and astonishing the people of Samaria, (N)claiming to be someone great;
10and they all, from smallest to greatest, were giving attention to him, saying, "(O)This man is what is called the Great Power of God."
11And they were giving him attention because he had for a long time astonished them with his (P)magic arts.
12But when they believed Philip (Q)preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being (R)baptized, men and women alike.
13Even Simon himself believed; and after being baptized, he continued on with Philip, and as he observed (S)signs and (T)great miracles taking place, he was constantly amazed.
14Now when (U)the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them (V)Peter and John,
15who came down and prayed for them (W)that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
16For He had (X)not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been (Y)baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
17Then they (Z)began laying their hands on them, and they were (AA)receiving the Holy Spirit.



belief from those who did not personally see Jesus and yet believed BEFORE receiving the Spirit of Grace

Okay. Thanks.

 

[&Abel]

2 Timothy 2

14Remind them of these things, and solemnly (AI)charge them in the presence of God not to (AJ)wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers. 15Be diligent to (AK)present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling (AL)the word of truth.
16But (AM)avoid (AN)worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness,
17and their talk will spread like [a]gangrene. Among them are (AO)Hymenaeus and Philetus,
18men who have gone astray from the truth saying that (AP)the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset (AQ)the faith of some.
19Nevertheless, the (AR)firm foundation of God stands, having this (AS)seal, "(AT)The Lord knows those who are His," and, "(AU)Everyone who names the name of the Lord is to abstain from wickedness."
20Now in a large house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and of earthenware, and (AV)some to honor and some to dishonor.
21Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from (AW)these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, (AX)prepared for every good work.
22Now (AY)flee from youthful lusts and pursue righteousness, (AZ)faith, love and peace, with those who (BA)call on the Lord (BB)from a pure heart.
23But refuse foolish and ignorant (BC)speculations, knowing that they (BD)produce quarrels.
24(BE)The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, (BF)able to teach, patient when wronged,
25(BG)with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, (BH)if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to (BI)the knowledge of the truth,
26and they may come to their senses and escape from (BJ)the snare of the devil, having been (BK)held captive by him to do his will.

 

[&Abel]

1 Timothy 1

3As I urged you upon my departure for (K)Macedonia, remain on at (L)Ephesus so that you may instruct certain men not to (M)teach strange doctrines,
4nor to pay attention to (N)myths and endless (O)genealogies, which give rise to mere (P)speculation rather than (Q)furthering the administration of God which is by faith.
5But the goal of our (R)instruction is love (S)from a pure heart and a (T)good conscience and a sincere (U)faith.
6For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to (V)fruitless discussion,
7(W)wanting to be (X)teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions.

 

[student ad x]

thanks for sharing

 

[&Abel]

thanks for sharing

np