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Calvinism Refuted

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PETE_

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do you believe God genuinely wanted the jews to follow Him?

because they didn't

so either they were preordained to fail and did the will of God, or God knew they would fail and so it fit with His overall knowledge of the outcome but He still did not will for them to rebel against Him
God does not have to will for anyone to rebel against him...men do that on their own
 
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PETE_

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I honestly don't know who to trust in this case

I was looking over various websites and majority are biased Calvinist perspectives

lets move on for now, I posted a verse from Deuteronomy 30
They dont agree with you so they must be biased...lol

If you look long enough I am sure you will find someone that agrees with you
 
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drstevej

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I am an infralapsarian:

  • (1) God's decree to glorify himself through the creation of the human race;
  • (2) the decree to permit the fall;
  • (3) the decree to elect some of the fallen race to salvation and to pass by the others and condemn them for their sin; and
  • (4) the decree to provide salvation for the elect through Jesus Christ.
 
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Hammster

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do you believe God genuinely wanted the jews to follow Him?

because they didn't

so either they were preordained to fail and did the will of God, or God knew they would fail and so it fit with His overall knowledge of the outcome but He still did not will for them to rebel against Him
Are you saying that ALL of the Jews refused to follow God? That's a lot of Jews.

As a Calvinist who advocates free will, I see no problem with this. God commands people to follow Him. The elect freely follow. The non-elect freely rebel.
 
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student ad x

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So God ordained Adam to sin? OR.... God knew that Adam would sin and had a plan in place for man's salvation?


Read Bavinck The 'reformed' hold one of these positions, either infra or supralapsarian.
 
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chestertonrules

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Read Bavinck The 'reformed' hold one of these positions, either infra or supralapsarian.


(a) That God is not the Author of sin (supra as well as infra).
(b) That Scripture (not philosophy) is the only source of our knowledge of God's decree (supra as well as infra).
(c) That man's fall and punishment is not merely the object of God's foreknowledge but of his decree and foreordination (infra as well as supra).




Does anyone else see a conflict between a) and c)?
 
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archierieus

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It's only neither here nor there in this case so that the conclusion desired, would carry.

The tense is painfully clear. The tense means what it means (time). The tense is against the position.

Nope. I decided to double check a few other sources. As it reads, the verse says: Whoever is believing that Jesus is the Christ is born of God. That is how I rendered it, that is how the major versions such as NASB, NIV, NKJV, KJV etc render it. The tense is not against the position at all. And in checking various sources regarding the thrust of what John is saying here, they concur. John puts believing in the continuing sense, as I noticed, there is NO discussion of when the believing began or how. As one student put it, the attempt to make born of God precedental in this verse is eisegesis. That was my take on it also. The textual evidence simply is not there. Once again, John is dealing with a heresy and showing how believing in Jesus as the Messiah is evidence of the validty of a person's faith.

Splitting the actions in two is a non sequitur -- unless you mean to split believing from being born of God. Then you'd have John not speaking in full sentences.

It is necessary to do so. Different actors. The individual is the one who believes, God is the one Who starts the new life. Believing in Jesus as Messiah is evidence of the validity of the new life.

Thus a violation of grammar. Again.

Nope, it is not a violation of recognized rules of grammar. It IS a violation of a presupposition. But that presupposition is not in the verse, and basing treatment of the verse on that presupposition is eisegesis.

John is explaining how to determine who's a heretic and who's not.

Agreed.

That's why he's talking so pervasively about how to tell who's been born of God.

Incorrect. He speaks elsewhere in this letter about the RESULTS of being born of God, as evidenced in a changed life. That does NOT address the issue of heresy. Heresy is one of a number of issues John speaks to. The entire letter is not about heresy, nor is it about being born again. Many subjects are covered.

That's quite an assumption, to consider John's letter to be so gerrymandered that he's implicitly addressing a specific heresy, using the exact same terms he's using elsewhere in the book.

Not gerrymandered at all, nor is the term apposite. John deals with a variety of issues in the early church. The terminology may very well overlap, in different applications.

No, the idea doesn't hold up in context. That's why the arguments are getting so outlandish. The grammar's against it. The context's against it. The terminology's against it.

Quite the opposite:

1) The grammar says, as the major translations put it, whoever is believing in Jesus as Messiah is born again.

2) The context is dealing with heresy and evidence that a person is a true believer.

3) The terminology is used both in the Johannine epistles, in John's gospel and elsewhere, in a variety of applications.

Reasonable exegesis is against it.

Incorrect. Although I double and triple checked a number of varied sources. 'Reasonable exegesis' does not support what you are trying to make the verse say.
 
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archierieus

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Are you saying that ALL of the Jews refused to follow God? That's a lot of Jews.

As a Calvinist who advocates free will, I see no problem with this. God commands people to follow Him. The elect freely follow. The non-elect freely rebel.

Looking like more common ground.

1) God commands people to follow Him. Agree
2) The elect freely follow. I would say, with God's help at every step.
3) The non-elect rebel. Agree
 
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Hammster

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Looking like more common ground.

1) God commands people to follow Him. Agree
2) The elect freely follow. I would say, with God's help at every step.
3) The non-elect rebel. Agree

But what makes someone elect?
 
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chestertonrules

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But what makes someone elect?


If by elect you mean those who will go to heaven, then following Jesus to the best of your ability and knowledge will lead you to heaven.

Rejecting God's will puts you in danger of eternal separation from God.
 
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Hammster

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If by elect you mean those who will go to heaven, then following Jesus to the best of your ability and knowledge will lead you to heaven.

Rejecting God's will puts you in danger of eternal separation from God.
So you elect yourself?
 
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Hammster

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I submit to God's grace.

I don't reject it.

God wants all men to be saved, but not all men are saved.

Why is this?


But why use the term 'elect'? Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.
 
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archierieus

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If by elect you mean those who will go to heaven, then following Jesus to the best of your ability and knowledge will lead you to heaven.

I would say that those who go to heaven are those who have accepted Jesus as their Savior and are covered by His perfect life. However good we may be or try to be, we are sinners, and our title to heaven is based upon Christ's completed, perfect work on Calvary and our acceptance of His work to stand in our place.

Christ also changes us, strengthens us and guides us. He began the work within us, and He is able to bring it to completion, if we will continue in living connection with Him as the true Vine.
 
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drstevej

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Rejecting God's will puts you in danger of eternal separation from God.

whom He justified, them He also glorified.

OJSG
Once Justified, Surely Glorified
 
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