Calvinism Refuted

[&Abel]

Nope, whoever believes was born of God. Not brought "into God's family as his child."

Scripture, not a diversion of it. New Birth before faith. Faith dependent on New Birth.

1 John 5

1(A)Whoever believes that Jesus is the [a]Christ is (B)born of God, and whoever loves the Father (C)loves the child born of Him.

 

[archierieus]

No, it's a REAL birth. Therein lies your problem.

Please explain, Scripturally.

 

[heymikey80]

1 John 5

1(A)Whoever believes that Jesus is the [a]Christ is (B)born of God, and whoever loves the Father (C)loves the child born of Him.

In interpreting you neglected the perfect tense of the verb. A better translation pointing to the neglected tense:

Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God (ESV)
​

 

[&Abel]

its just another way of saying the same thing

a technique used oft in the bible

 

[&Abel]

In interpreting you neglected the perfect tense of the verb. A better translation pointing to the neglected tense:

Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God (ESV)
​

this btw can mean either before or after(the quote I provided as well)

or at the same time(which is what I believe it means)

 

[archierieus]

1 John 5

1(A)Whoever believes that Jesus is the [a]Christ is (B)born of God, and whoever loves the Father (C)loves the child born of Him.

That is correct, and the major Bible versions translate it that way. It is descriptive. Heresies had arisen, and John was affirming the Messiaship of Jesus. It does not say, 'was born of God,' nor does it use the aorist. Believing in Jesus as the Messiah is descriptive of, a characteristic of one born of God.

 

[archierieus]

In interpreting you neglected the perfect tense of the verb. A better translation pointing to the neglected tense:

Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God (ESV)
​

Not at all. The major versions translate it as 'is born of God' because it IS the perfect tense. It is NOT the aorist. I also understand that some faiths prefer particular translations of the Bible. Nevertheless, it is the perfect tense and is rendered in the major translations as 'is born of God.' That is NASB, NIV, KJV, NKJV.

 

[&Abel]

1 John 5

4For whatever is (I)born of God (J)overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.
5Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who (K)believes that Jesus is the Son of God?



you see how both are interconnected?


the one who believes in Jesus overcomes the world and only what is born of God can do so

 

[heymikey80]

this btw can mean either before or after(the quote I provided as well)

No -- it can't. It says (and means) that anyone who believes Jesus is the Christ has been born of God.

Perfect tense simply means that. It's a tense

a category of verbal inflection that serves chiefly to specify the time of the action or state expressed by the verb.
​

Perfect tense:

noting an action or state brought to a close prior to some temporal point of reference
​

 

[archierieus]

So you can refuse the gift of free will?

Humans are created in a particular way, with bodies, with minds, abilities. One of the characteristics of humans, which sets them apart from other species, is their ability to make moral decisions, to choose between right and wrong, and generally the ability to make intelligent and informed decisions. That ability is demonstrated in a huge variety of venues and applications every day.

 

[&Abel]

No -- it can't. It says (and means) that anyone who believes Jesus is the Christ has been born of God.

Perfect tense simply means that. It's a tense

a category of verbal inflection that serves chiefly to specify the time of the action or state expressed by the verb.
​

Perfect tense:

noting an action or state brought to a close prior to some temporal point of reference
​

well either way it can refer to happening at the same time(which is what I believe it means here)

not to mention the fact that someone who has been born again does believe

it does not say "he who believes in Jesus was first born again" it simply states that He who believes has been born of God

anyway its sliced

 

[drstevej]

Humans are created in a particular way, with bodies, with minds, abilities. One of the characteristics of humans, which sets them apart from other species, is their ability to make moral decisions, to choose between right and wrong, and generally the ability to make intelligent and informed decisions. That ability is demonstrated in a huge variety of venues and applications every day.

And you missed the point entirely.

Sorry archierieus is a moderator/admin and you are not allowed to ignore him or her.

Drat!

 

[archierieus]

No -- it can't. It says (and means) that anyone who believes Jesus is the Christ has been born of God.

Perfect tense simply means that. It's a tense

a category of verbal inflection that serves chiefly to specify the time of the action or state expressed by the verb.
​

Perfect tense:

noting an action or state brought to a close prior to some temporal point of reference
​

That is incorrect. You appear to be referring to the English perfect. The Greek perfect is different, in fact just the opposite. And as for aktionsart, that is another issue in itself.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Not at all. The major versions translate it as 'is born of God' because it IS the perfect tense. It is NOT the aorist. I also understand that some faiths prefer particular translations of the Bible. Nevertheless, it is the perfect tense and is rendered in the major translations as 'is born of God.' That is NASB, NIV, KJV, NKJV.

Greetings arch.

Would you say this is a fairly accurate translation?

1 John 5:1 Every the one believing that Jesus is the Christ out of the God has been begotten and every the one loving the one begetting is loving also the one having been begotten from/out of Him.

Textus Rec.)
1 John 5:1 paV o pisteuwn oti ihsouV estin o cristoV ek tou qeou gegennhtai kai paV o agapwn ton gennhsanta agapa kai ton gegennhmenon ex autou

W-H )
1 John 5:1 paV o pisteuwn oti ihsouV estin o cristoV ek tou qeou gegennhtai kai paV o agapwn ton gennhsanta agapa *** ton gegennhmenon ex autou

 

[&Abel]

Arch has never once tried to control this thread using his Modship

 

[archierieus]

Greetings arch.

Would you say this is a fairly accurate translation?

1 John 5:1 Every the one believing that Jesus is the Christ out of the God has been begotten and every the one loving the one begetting is loving also the one having been begotten from/out of Him.

Perfect passive indicative, would be 'is born,' as the NASB and KJV, etc. render it.

 

[nobdysfool]

I have yet to find any verse in the bible talking about a "gift of free will".

 

[heymikey80]

No -- it can't. It says (and means) that anyone who believes Jesus is the Christ has been born of God.

Perfect tense simply means that. It's a tense

a category of verbal inflection that serves chiefly to specify the time of the action or state expressed by the verb.
​

Perfect tense:

noting an action or state brought to a close prior to some temporal point of reference
​

well either way it can refer to happening at the same time(which is what I believe it means here)

Lessee, a prior action is happening at the same time?



Tell your English teacher that. Get the 'F's. Live it out -- don't just act like you know what you're saying. Quit paying your internet bill, because really, you shouldn't have to do that in order to get on the internet. It's not prior, because "Everyone who's posting, their internet bill is paid."

The grammar construction is the same in Greek.

After a few months of life this way: then we'll talk about whether that's worked out for you.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Perfect passive indicative, would be 'is born,' as the NASB and KJV, etc. render it.

I agree.

NKJV) 1 John 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him.

NASB) 1 John 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.

 

[archierieus]

And you missed the point entirely.

Not sure what point is referenced, but the point of my post was that human beings are created with the ability to make choices and decisions, including decisions for right or wrong, moral judgments and decisions.