Calvinism Refuted

[MamaZ]

Because we who believe in Predestination as the scriptures shows us believe that it is God who draws, calls, chooses, justifies,sanctifies. We as mere human beings are humbled by His Love. For we know within ourselves that there is nothing in men that deserves anything but death and hell.. But God in His mercy and Grace has chosen some of us to be His for not our glory but for His glory and we are humbled.. All we can do is stand and say thank you for the cross.. Thank you Father for loving me a sinner and calling me your own.

 

[MamaZ]

the jews are no longer the chosen people

all people are now chosen

thats what the new covenant is all about

No where in scripture can you point to that shows us that God has called all people everywhere for all time His.. The NC is Christ blood for His chosen just as in the OC it was the Law..

 

[&Abel]

Because we who believe in Predestination as the scriptures shows us believe that it is God who draws, calls, chooses, justifies,sanctifies. We as mere human beings are humbled by His Love. For we know within ourselves that there is nothing in men that deserves anything but death and hell.. But God in His mercy and Grace has chosen some of us to be His for not our glory but for His glory and we are humbled.. All we can do is stand and say thank you for the cross.. Thank you Father for loving me a sinner and calling me your own.

can you stop now with the long winded avoidance of the points being made?

this isn't even a discussion

its me attempting to discuss with everyone else dodging, and trying to cover it with false observations of myself

 

[&Abel]

No where in scripture can you point to that shows us that God has called all people everywhere for all time His.. The NC is Christ blood for His chosen just as in the OC it was the Law..

1 John 2

1(A)My little children, I am (B)writing these things to you so that you may not sin And if anyone sins, (C)we have an [a](D)Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2and He Himself is (E)the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also (F)for those of the whole world.
3(G)By this we know that we have come to (H)know Him, if we (I)keep His commandments.



1 Timothy 2


4(D)who desires all men to be (E)saved and to (F)come to the knowledge of the truth.
5For there is (G)one God, and (H)one mediator also between God and men, the (I)man Christ Jesus,
6who (J)gave Himself as a ransom for all, the (K)testimony given at (L)the proper time.

 

[MamaZ]

can you stop now with the long winded avoidance of the points being made?

this isn't even a discussion

its me attempting to discuss with everyone else dodging, and trying to cover it with false observations of myself

You asked what calvanists believe did you not? This is how I believe and what I wrote.. How did this come around to something about you?

 

[nobdysfool]

so explain Calvinism in your own simple terms

if you can't do that then theres a problem

So that you don't have to do the work? Sorry, that's not in your best interest. I could, but it won't be simple, and it won't be short, and that's what you're looking for, Instant Knowledge. You would despise knowledge gained that way, because it cost you nothing.

If you want to continue making yourself look foolish, that's your right, just don't complain when you are called out on your foolishness.

There is no problem in refusing to give you instant gratification and instant knowledge of Calvinism on my side. The problem is on your side, because you don't know what you're asking for.

 

[MamaZ]

1 John 2

1(A)My little children, I am (B)writing these things to you so that you may not sin And if anyone sins, (C)we have an [a](D)Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2and He Himself is (E)the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also (F)for those of the whole world.
3(G)By this we know that we have come to (H)know Him, if we (I)keep His commandments.



1 Timothy 2


4(D)who desires all men to be (E)saved and to (F)come to the knowledge of the truth.
5For there is (G)one God, and (H)one mediator also between God and men, the (I)man Christ Jesus,
6who (J)gave Himself as a ransom for all, the (K)testimony given at (L)the proper time.

Show me where it is written that God calls all people everywhere His own..We see Jesus telling some that they are of their father the devil.

 

[nobdysfool]

can you stop now with the long winded avoidance of the points being made?

this isn't even a discussion

its me attempting to discuss with everyone else dodging, and trying to cover it with false observations of myself

You ask for knowledge, and reject it when it is offered. Just as I said you would, you despise the knowledge that's offered.

When are you going to realize that it's not all about you?

 

[&Abel]

Romans 9

12it was said to her, "(AA)THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER."
13Just as it is written, "(AB)JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."
14(AC)What shall we say then? (AD)There is no injustice with God, is there? (AE)May it never be!
15For He says to Moses, "(AF)I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who (AG)runs, but on (AH)God who has mercy.
17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "(AI)FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."
18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He (AJ)hardens whom He desires.
19(AK)You will say to me then, "(AL)Why does He still find fault? For (AM)who resists His will?"
20On the contrary, who are you, (AN)O man, who (AO)answers back to God? (AP)The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much (AQ)patience vessels of wrath (AR)prepared for destruction?
23And He did so to make known (AS)the riches of His glory upon (AT)vessels of mercy, which He (AU)prepared beforehand for glory

this is the strongest verse the Calvinist position has

but when put into context of scripture it clearly cannot be in support of the Calvinist position

otherwise you have scripture contradicting scripture

and we all know this is not the case

 

[&Abel]

I can explain my views easily

I believe Jesus Christ lived and died for the sins of the entire world, Giving everyone who chooses to receive His grace access to His Spirit and the chance of salvation

true gospel

simple easy to understand terms

God is not a God of confusion

if you cannot state your views in simple terms then I question whether or not you understand them yourself(or if your afraid to take a firm position because your already anticipating the holes we will find)

 

[&Abel]

You ask for knowledge, and reject it when it is offered. Just as I said you would, you despise the knowledge that's offered.

When are you going to realize that it's not all about you?

yet you continue to make it about me

every post you make contains your "observations"

complete distraction from the fact that you have NOTHING to further add to the topic at hand

 

[&Abel]

I question any doctrine that REQUIRES extensive extra-biblical reading just to understand

if you can't explain it with the scripture

theres a problem

 

[MamaZ]

Romans 9

12it was said to her, "(AA)THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER."
13Just as it is written, "(AB)JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."
14(AC)What shall we say then? (AD)There is no injustice with God, is there? (AE)May it never be!
15For He says to Moses, "(AF)I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who (AG)runs, but on (AH)God who has mercy.
17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "(AI)FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."
18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He (AJ)hardens whom He desires.
19(AK)You will say to me then, "(AL)Why does He still find fault? For (AM)who resists His will?"
20On the contrary, who are you, (AN)O man, who (AO)answers back to God? (AP)The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much (AQ)patience vessels of wrath (AR)prepared for destruction?
23And He did so to make known (AS)the riches of His glory upon (AT)vessels of mercy, which He (AU)prepared beforehand for glory

this is the strongest verse the Calvinist position has

but when put into context of scripture it clearly cannot be in support of the Calvinist position

otherwise you have scripture contradicting scripture

and we all know this is not the case

scripture never contradicts itself. Scripture will interpret scripture making it a whole.. This is the whole councel of the written scriptures with Christ at the center of all.. Not man and their will or wishes or desires but Christ and His revelation to us His chosen.

 

[nobdysfool]

Romans 9

12it was said to her, "(AA)THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER."
13Just as it is written, "(AB)JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."
14(AC)What shall we say then? (AD)There is no injustice with God, is there? (AE)May it never be!
15For He says to Moses, "(AF)I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who (AG)runs, but on (AH)God who has mercy.
17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "(AI)FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."
18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He (AJ)hardens whom He desires.
19(AK)You will say to me then, "(AL)Why does He still find fault? For (AM)who resists His will?"
20On the contrary, who are you, (AN)O man, who (AO)answers back to God? (AP)The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much (AQ)patience vessels of wrath (AR)prepared for destruction?
23And He did so to make known (AS)the riches of His glory upon (AT)vessels of mercy, which He (AU)prepared beforehand for glory

this is the strongest verse the Calvinist position has

but when put into context of scripture it clearly cannot be in support of the Calvinist position

otherwise you have scripture contradicting scripture

and we all know this is not the case

More lack of knowledge on display.

"this is the strongest verse the Calvinist position has" -&Abel

Yeah, right....you don't have a clue. You're just parroting someone else's talking points, probably from some anti-Calvinist website you stumbled across.

You aren't trying to "have a discussion", you inserted yourself into a discussion that was going on before you ever got here, and what you're trying to do is hijack the tread in order to spew your uninformed, unknowledgeable, half-baked, stream-of-consciousness rants against a theology that you clearly do not have correct knowledge of, and exhibit an unwillingness to take the time to educate yourself about it, so that even if you disagree you could do so intelligently, and address substantive questions, instead of the kindergarten-level stuff. In all your so-called "objections" and "proofs" against what you imagine to be Calvinism, you haven't even one time actually addressed a real Calvinist doctrine.

Sorry, but this constant noise grows tiresome.

"it is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open one's mouth, and remove all doubt."

 

[MamaZ]

I question any doctrine that REQUIRES extensive extra-biblical reading just to understand

if you can't explain it with the scripture

theres a problem

It has been explained through the scripture you refuse to believe. Keeping your own understanding of what you read as the rule and not allowing scripture to interpret scripture and believing what is written.. There needs no explaination to what the scripture says.. The scripture shows us in the OT and well as the NT that it is God who created.. It is God who came to man even after sin as men hid from Him.. The scriptures reveal to us our mighty God and who He really is..

 

[&Abel]

exactly and thats exactly what happens when you put this verse into context with other scripture

this verse is not easy to understand without it

2 Peter 3

15and regard the (AP)patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also (AQ)our beloved brother Paul, (AR)according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you,
16as also in all his letters, speaking in them of (AS)these things, (AT)in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and (AU)unstable distort, as they do also (AV)the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17You therefore, (AW)beloved, knowing this beforehand, (AX)be on your guard so that you are not carried away by (AY)the error of (AZ)unprincipled men and (BA)fall from your own steadfastness,
18but grow in the grace and (BB)knowledge of our (BC)Lord and Savior Jesus Christ (BD)To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

 

[&Abel]

More lack of knowledge on display.

"this is the strongest verse the Calvinist position has" -&Abel

Yeah, right....you don't have a clue. You're just parroting someone else's talking points, probably from some anti-Calvinist website you stumbled across.

You aren't trying to "have a discussion", you inserted yourself into a discussion that was going on before you ever got here, and what you're trying to do is hijack the tread in order to spew your uninformed, unknowledgeable, half-baked, stream-of-consciousness rants against a theology that you clearly do not have correct knowledge of, and exhibit an unwillingness to take the time to educate yourself about it, so that even if you disagree you could do so intelligently, and address substantive questions, instead of the kindergarten-level stuff. In all your so-called "objections" and "proofs" against what you imagine to be Calvinism, you haven't even one time actually addressed a real Calvinist doctrine.

Sorry, but this constant noise grows tiresome.

"it is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open one's mouth, and remove all doubt."

once again 90% about me

so whats the strongest verse the Calvinist has then?

 

[&Abel]

and still avoiding everything I've asked of you while I provide everything you ask of me(minus reading your Calvinist propaganda dribble)

 

[nobdysfool]

I can explain my views easily

I believe Jesus Christ lived and died for the sins of the entire world, Giving everyone who chooses to receive His grace access to His Spirit and the chance of salvation

true gospel

simple easy to understand terms

God is not a God of confusion

if you cannot state your views in simple terms then I question whether or not you understand them yourself(or if your afraid to take a firm position because your already anticipating the holes we will find)

Who is "we"? do you have a frog in your pocket?

I don't see anyone else coming to your defense. Even those who you think agree with you are sitting this one out.

True, God is not a God of confusion. That is absolutely correct. But, you have yet to make the case that Calvinists and Reformed Christians are confused, and teaching confusion.

It is actually your position that breeds confusion, because there are so many holes in it, and the God you profess to believe in is powerless and impotent to see His Will accomplished.

 

[&Abel]

Who is "we"? do you have a frog in your pocket?

I don't see anyone else coming to your defense. Even those who you think agree with you are sitting this one out.

True, God is not a God of confusion. That is absolutely correct. But, you have yet to make the case that Calvinists and Reformed Christians are confused, and teaching confusion.

It is actually your position that breeds confusion, because there are so many holes in it, and the God you profess to believe in is powerless and impotent to see His Will accomplished.

we as in freewillers

point out some holes for me