Calvinism Refuted

[drstevej]

There are 3 members of the Godhead and each are equally involved in the salvation of souls, but with different functions. I say this to you because I don't think you know it

If this was not intended as an insult it reflects is clear evidence you do not read well. Nothing I have ever posted contradicts this. So which is it?

and you have some strange beliefs.

Name three or retract the accusation.

 

[JDS]

If this was not intended as an insult it reflects is clear evidence you do not read well. Nothing I have ever posted contradicts this. So which is it?





Name three or retract the accusation.

It is not the trinity that I think you do not understand, it is the gospel of God. The gospel of God is the area of my disagreement with Calvinists.

 

[drstevej]

The gospel of God is the area of my disagreement with Calvinists.

And with most dispensationalists.

 

[JDS]

And with most dispensationalists.

Not really! I agree with most classical dispensationalists because I am one. But it doesn't matterbecause it is better to believe God than men. You seem to reference men more than God. That is just my observation.

 

[drstevej]

Not really! I agree with most classical dispensationalists because I am one. But it doesn't matterbecause it is better to believe God than men. You seem to reference men more than God. That is just my observation.

Nope.

 

[JDS]

Nope.

Have you ever really considered this information?

Ro 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
3 Concerning his (God's) Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:



Ro 16:25 Now to him (God the Father) that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel (the gospel of God), and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery (See Ep 3), which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now (the mystery) is made manifest (brought to light), and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

You are too smart to be a Calvinist if you would read the words carefully.

It was God who hid these things! He is the hidder and the revealer of the mystery and he has commanded it to be made known to all nations so they may believe as he has commanded.

Ephesians is the companion to this epistle of Romans its theme is "the mystery of Christ".

Notice this prayer for knowledge for them of the gentiles from Paul;

15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us–ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

It is the Father who is the principle person here because it is the gospel of God!

Notice this prayer:

Ep 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
16 That he (God the Father) would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

Again, it is the Father who is the member of the Godhead who does all these things.

This is in relatiion to the gentiles and the church.
The scripture says the church is the wisdom of God. 1 cor 2.

 

[Hammster]

Have you ever really considered this information?



Ro 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)

3 Concerning his (God's) Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:







Ro 16:25 Now to him (God the Father) that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel (the gospel of God), and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery (See Ep 3), which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now (the mystery) is made manifest (brought to light), and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:



You are too smart to be a Calvinist if you would read the words carefully.



It was God who hid these things! He is the hidder and the revealer of the mystery and he has commanded it to be made known to all nations so they may believe as he has commanded.



Ephesians is the companion to this epistle of Romans its theme is "the mystery of Christ".



Notice this prayer for knowledge for them of the gentiles from Paul;



15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;

17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us–ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.



It is the Father who is the principle person here because it is the gospel of God!



Notice this prayer:



Ep 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

16 That he (God the Father) would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;

17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;

19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.



Again, it is the Father who is the member of the Godhead who does all these things.



This is in relatiion to the gentiles and the church.

The scripture says the church is the wisdom of God. 1 cor 2.

The gentiles and the church, or the gentiles in the church.

 

[JDS]

The gentiles and the church, or the gentiles in the church.

"and the church".

Here is the command!

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now (since the mystery is revealed) commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he (God) hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

This is the gospel of God and Paul, who was separated unto it, is preaching it. This is the business of God that he is proclaiming.

Can any of you see it?

 

[Hammster]

"and the church".



Here is the command!



29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now (since the mystery is revealed) commandeth all men every where to repent:

31 Because he (God) hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.



This is the gospel of God and Paul, who was separated unto it, is preaching it. This is the business of God that he is proclaiming.



Can any of you see it?

God isn't very efficient. All those people who never head. Too bad.

 

[the particular baptist]

JDS, do you believe that unregenerate men are dead in their sins, mostly dead, partially dead, a little dead, or none of the above.

Also, how do you explain John chapters 6 and more importantly chapter 17 ? No need to post them just read them slowly at your convenience and comment on them.

It is hard to approach scripture without operating assumptions or presuppositions, everyone has them without exception, so ill tell you my operating assumption when reading scripture just so you know where i stand.

Creation <---------Redemption------------> New Creation
All from God, through God, for God, every bit of it, for His Glory. Romans 11.36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.

I have some questions for you with respect to the new covenant promises in the OT and what God said about them. Later though.

In our fellowship there are 4 members who used to be Independent Fundamental Baptists KJO to boot and their heros were Finney and Scofield. If God can convert these men to the Doctrines Of Grace there is hope for you too so cheer up.

 

[student ad x]

This ought to be interesting.

 

[the particular baptist]

Jesus said whosoever believes in him will be saved. That means all, anyone, everyone, can hear about Christ

Everyone can/should hear about Christ, but it does not mean that everyone will hear. The gospel call goes out to everyone, repent and believe the Gospel! BUT ,It is the Holy Spirit that quickens men, not ... " I see that hand ! .... I see that hand !

I dont mean to burst your whosoever bubble but John 3.16 reads like this in the greek. God so loved the world that He gave His only Son so that all the believing ones

There is no word for whoseover in greek no matter what Jerry Vines, Finney, and Scofield say.

Yes, the Holy Spirit is present in the gospel calling all to come to Christ.

You dont sound very enthusiastic about it. All the believing ones owe their faith and repentance to the Holy Spirit.

The fall of Adam did not make him go deaf. "Faith comes by hearing the Gospel."

The fall of Adam not only made men deaf but made them spiritually blind, deaf, and dead, in their tresspasses and sins. The only choice they have is to sin unless/until the Holy Spirit intervenes.

 

[archierieus]

So when Jesus told us to take up our crosses and follow Him in the aorist, that's not continuing action?

One wonders why He says to do so daily.

Take up the cross is aorist in all three accounts. 'daily' appears in Luke I think it is. However, 'follow' is NOT aorist, I believe it is perfect. And that would make sense. To pick something up is a one-time action, point in time. That can as well be a recurring action, to pick it up again, but it is not a continuing action, i.e. always picking up. One picks something up in order to carry it, and 'carry' would be perfect, in this case 'follow' is perfect.

There is no defined acktionsart for the aorist. It's the undefined aspect. The meaning of the aorist verb has to be taken from the text; the aorist itself brings nothing to the text.

You statement is a bit too broad. While there no doubt are different schools of thought about aktionsart, and the aorist is impacted to an extent by the context, at the same time it IS distinguished from the perfect and other tenses. As well, the inflected meaning of a verb can vary with the tense, as noted even in the simple dictionary definition posted by MamaZ.

 

[archierieus]

John 3.16 reads like this in the greek. God so loved the world that He gave His only Son so that all the believing ones

Just took a look at N-A 27th. It shows up there as a singular participle rather than a plural, 'pas ho pisteuwn' thus the 'whoever' or 'whosoever' or 'every one' believing in Him would seem appropriate.

As for your suggestion that there is not a Greek word for 'whosoever,' interesting idea. However, I do wish to differ with you.

 

[heymikey80]

Well, we have just established in Jn. 3 that regeneration, born again pertains to baptism by water and the Holy Spirit, and have tentatively linked Titus 3 to that.

As I have pointed out that link is not really exegetical. It's based on assumptions from word etymology that don't stand a critical analysis of the breadth of use of the term in the First Century. The allusion is not definite.

1 John 5:1 is quite definite. It says faith is based on new birth. John uses the same term, and puts new birth before those attributes dependent on it. John uses the words in his Gospel (and there are reasoned, if controversial, observations linking 1 John with his Gospel and not as a separate letter). What would put a meaning to John's words other than what he said? We're not extending an etymology argument to get here. We're only working from the Greek words John uses.

The Scriptural reference to new birth/regeneration pertains to baptism.

That seems quite a leap, as new birth hasn't been linked to this term for regeneration -- which is dizzyingly broad, as I've mentioned before, which would contradict any attempt to place a time precedence based on its use.

John 3 doesn't necessarily refer to baptism, and it's not linked to Titus 3 except by a more tenuous thread of concepts. The words are different; their meanings are different; the conclusions aren't coming through this linkage.

Which comes first according to Scripture, repentance or being born again and baptism?

Being born again comes first according to 1 John 5:1.

Which comes first, archierieus: faith or repentance?

As for the post you linked to, I did not see an exegetical connection between Ezek. 11:19 and Rom. 10:10. I see reference to 'new heart' in Ezek., and reference to 'heart' in Rom. 10, but that does not establish that believing means having been born again or regenerated.

As I haven't seen an exegetical connection among more than a couple of the verses you cited, I didn't see the need to establish the case. But I'd point out some fairly obvious things here, with word uses in the Septuagint that are much more strongly associated than Titus 3 is to John 3.

The connection between Ezek 11 and Jer 31 was understood and analyzed in Judaic thought in Jesus' time.

These two passages connect with Jesus' ministry through the use of:

new covenant
heart change / new heart
poured-out Spirit
forgiveness of iniquity
​

Paul makes a comparison in 2 Cor 3 between a ministry written on stone and one written on the human heart that is interestingly parallel with the words used in Ezekiel 11.

And of course the writer of Hebrews cites the Jeremiah passage directly as the new covenant (Heb 8:13).

The connections are more numerous than the tentative proposal from Titus 3. This one's stronger.

I also note your ref. to 1 Jn. 5:1, but take that in conjunction with Lk. 3, Jn. 3, Acts 2, Acts 3 etc. where repentance precedes conversion/new birth.

I did not see an exegetical connection between 1 Jn 5:1 and Lk 3, Acts 2, Acts 3 etc. There is no place here where repentance precedes conversion/new birth. In Luke 3 in particular the baptism is a baptism of repentance, not of new birth. If baptism indicates new birth, then baptism and repentance pretty clearly correspond to one another in Luke's wording. Acts 2 and 3 again bring repentance and baptism into correspondence with one another. In fact check out Acts 3:19 in comparison with 22:16.

The concepts of new life and conversion coincide; in your citations one doesn't precede the other. The precedence of one or the other has not been established by these references.

As for Romans 6:1-7, the resurrection of Christ didn't begin His spiritual life, so the connection there is lost in the illustration. Keep in mind that baptism is used as a picture of something happening internally. Once again, the timing doesn't correspond. If Christ's spirit didn't already have eternal life in the sense we're discussing, He wouldn't have survived the Crucifixion.

As for Jn 3 I'm fine with the connection there. But there's a difference between "water" and baptism.

1 John 5:1 continues to state its direct assertion that being born of God is precedential to belief. To try to promote these other verses into something they don't say explicitly -- that they really don't say at all -- and then oppose that to the open statement of John -- that seems less tenable. An open statement of Scripture, is it more to be trusted than an implicit inference from word order?

Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God
​

'Born of God' may indeed parallel Jn. 1, 'as many as received Him (reached out to take hold of Him) to them gave He power to become sons of God, even those who believed on His name . . .'

It's actually not a parallel in John 1 -- a different parallel is explicitly stated. And in fact the right to become sons of God is not the parallel of "born of God" in John 1:12.

But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
​

From the construction of this sentence, "who received him" and "who were born" occupy the same grammatical roles. They're the parallels. This sentence doesn't really establish strong parallels.

Again -- is an arrogated parallel to override the explicitly-stated parallel of Scripture?

A person is convicted by the Spirit of sin, repents of sin, accepts Jesus as Savior and is baptized. 'Repent and be baptized,' 'whoso believes and is baptized shall be saved.'

"kai"/"and" is not explicit evidence of temporal sequence. If it did, then we'd be looking at other verses where repentance precedes belief, and confession precedes belief.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by thefivesolas John 3.16 reads like this in the greek. God so loved the world that He gave His only Son so that all the believing ones

Just took a look at N-A 27th. It shows up there as a singular participle rather than a plural, 'pas ho pisteuwn' thus the 'whoever' or 'whosoever' or 'every one' believing in Him would seem appropriate.

As for your suggestion that there is not a Greek word for 'whosoever,' interesting idea. However, I do wish to differ with you.

That is how I read it also
This interlinear will show where exact forms of greek words are used in the NT.....Curiously this form of the word "believe" is used only in John of the Gospels [15 times] and 9 times outside the Gospels

http://www.scripture4all.org/

John 3:16....... that every the one-believing into Him.......

Textus Rec.) John 3:16........ ina paV o pisteuwn eiV auton........

pisteuwn used 24 times in NT

 

[archierieus]

As I have pointed out that link is not really exegetical. It's based on assumptions from word etymology that don't stand a critical analysis of the breadth of use of the term in the First Century. The allusion is not definite.

1 John 5:1 is quite definite. It says faith is based on new birth. John uses the same term, and puts new birth before those attributes dependent on it. John uses the words in his Gospel (and there are reasoned, if controversial, observations linking 1 John with his Gospel and not as a separate letter). What would put a meaning to John's words other than what he said? We're not extending an etymology argument to get here. We're only working from the Greek words John uses.

That seems quite a leap, as new birth hasn't been linked to this term for regeneration -- which is dizzyingly broad, as I've mentioned before, which would contradict any attempt to place a time precedence based on its use.

John 3 doesn't necessarily refer to baptism, and it's not linked to Titus 3 except by a more tenuous thread of concepts. The words are different; their meanings are different; the conclusions aren't coming through this linkage.

Being born again comes first according to 1 John 5:1.

Which comes first, archierieus: faith or repentance?

As I haven't seen an exegetical connection among more than a couple of the verses you cited, I didn't see the need to establish the case. But I'd point out some fairly obvious things here, with word uses in the Septuagint that are much more strongly associated than Titus 3 is to John 3.

The connection between Ezek 11 and Jer 31 was understood and analyzed in Judaic thought in Jesus' time.

These two passages connect with Jesus' ministry through the use of:

new covenant
heart change / new heart
poured-out Spirit
forgiveness of iniquity
​

Paul makes a comparison in 2 Cor 3 between a ministry written on stone and one written on the human heart that is interestingly parallel with the words used in Ezekiel 11.

And of course the writer of Hebrews cites the Jeremiah passage directly as the new covenant (Heb 8:13).

The connections are more numerous than the tentative proposal from Titus 3. This one's stronger.

I did not see an exegetical connection between 1 Jn 5:1 and Lk 3, Acts 2, Acts 3 etc. There is no place here where repentance precedes conversion/new birth. In Luke 3 in particular the baptism is a baptism of repentance, not of new birth. If baptism indicates new birth, then baptism and repentance pretty clearly correspond to one another in Luke's wording. Acts 2 and 3 again bring repentance and baptism into correspondence with one another. In fact check out Acts 3:19 in comparison with 22:16.

The concepts of new life and conversion coincide; in your citations one doesn't precede the other. The precedence of one or the other has not been established by these references.

As for Romans 6:1-7, the resurrection of Christ didn't begin His spiritual life, so the connection there is lost in the illustration. Keep in mind that baptism is used as a picture of something happening internally. Once again, the timing doesn't correspond. If Christ's spirit didn't already have eternal life in the sense we're discussing, He wouldn't have survived the Crucifixion.

As for Jn 3 I'm fine with the connection there. But there's a difference between "water" and baptism.

1 John 5:1 continues to state its direct assertion that being born of God is precedential to belief. To try to promote these other verses into something they don't say explicitly -- that they really don't say at all -- and then oppose that to the open statement of John -- that seems less tenable. An open statement of Scripture, is it more to be trusted than an implicit inference from word order?

Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God
​

It's actually not a parallel in John 1 -- a different parallel is explicitly stated. And in fact the right to become sons of God is not the parallel of "born of God" in John 1:12.

But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
​

From the construction of this sentence, "who received him" and "who were born" occupy the same grammatical roles. They're the parallels. This sentence doesn't really establish strong parallels.

Again -- is an arrogated parallel to override the explicitly-stated parallel of Scripture?

"kai"/"and" is not explicit evidence of temporal sequence. If it did, then we'd be looking at other verses where repentance precedes belief, and confession precedes belief.

Thank you for your carefully-studied and thought out post. I look forward to responding, hopefully tomorrow as it is a bit late.

 

[heymikey80]

Just took a look at N-A 27th. It shows up there as a singular participle rather than a plural, 'pas ho pisteuwn' thus the 'whoever' or 'whosoever' or 'every one' believing in Him would seem appropriate.

As for your suggestion that there is not a Greek word for 'whosoever,' interesting idea. However, I do wish to differ with you.

"every one" is how I'd push it, too. But that would make it a pervasive "all", not a comprehensive "all". And frankly, that's readily translated "all those believing" in English, just as the equivalent "every one believing". Because they are essentially equivalent. The implications don't bear against any particular position.

All this time spent expecting "all" to always be comprehensive just doesn't work out all that well. When attempted the expressions that really point to pervasiveness then have to be explained by even more expansive meanings.

 

[archierieus]

Just one quick comment on 1 Jn. 5:1. Here is N-A:

&#928;&#8118;&#962; &#8001; &#960;&#953;&#963;&#964;&#949;&#8059;&#969;&#957; &#8005;&#964;&#953; &#7992;&#951;&#963;&#959;&#8166;&#962; &#7952;&#963;&#964;&#953;&#957; &#8001; &#935;&#961;&#953;&#963;&#964;&#8056;&#962; &#7952;&#954; &#964;&#959;&#8166; &#952;&#949;&#959;&#8166; &#947;&#949;&#947;&#8051;&#957;&#957;&#951;&#964;&#945;&#953;

Perfect passive indicative 3rd pers. sing.

I don't see here the precedence you claim. I do note pisteuwn, present active participle nom. sing. masc. I believe, which reflects John's habit of putting believing in the continuing action, and being born (again) as a one time action, always in the past. Thus, the one believing that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God. This does not show born again preceding belief. It is descriptive of the believer. The issue in the immediate context pertains to Arianism, which John is speaking against. It might possibly be different if John had written believing also as a one-time action. As it reads, however, believing appears as ongoing, with the beginning point of believing unstated. Such would need to be determined by comparing Scripture. Taking it just as it reads, believing could have begun BEFORE being born of God, CONCURRENTLY with or AFTER. 'Believing' is continuing action. HOWEVER, if a student approaches the text with a presupposition that regeneration precedes faith, then there is the danger of eisegesis. Instead, it is good to take the text exactly as it reads, without any agenda.

 

[archierieus]

"every one" is how I'd push it, too. But that would make it a pervasive "all", not a comprehensive "all". And frankly, that's readily translated "all those believing" in English, just as the equivalent "every one believing". Because they are essentially equivalent. The implications don't bear against any particular position.

Must disagree with you there. It occurs in the singular, with the definite article. I chose the word 'every one' but the wording also calls for 'any one' hence, I expect, the original word 'whosoever.' ANYONE believing. 'Every' one with the significance of 'any' one. And that is a different shade of meaning from 'all those believing.'