Calvinism Refuted

[Hammster]

Archie has been gone most the day. I hope this means he's putting together his verses that support his view. It could be interesting.

 

[JDS]

The darkness is great!

 

[Hammster]

The darkness is great!

Are you trying to get some sleep?

 

[Epiphoskei]

In the interest of down playing my one linerness, I decided to look at Mr. Pate's most recent post and address a verse or two, and Romans 8:32 jumped out. And, of course, je highlighted all men, which I assume he means to demonstrate that salvation is available to all men.

So when I looked it up it struck me as odd that this verse is bookended by 2 verses/passages that speak of election: vs. 28-30 and verse 33. This demonstrates to me God's foreknowledge and election of a set number of people, not that salvation is available to all.

Is there anybody who shares Mr. Pate's view want to take a stab at defending his use of that verse for universal atonement?

"Us" is the critical word in that passage. The love God has towards his saints, in Romans 8, is of an effectual nature. Since he loved us, and even died for us, he will give us all things. He justifies and interceedes for us. We are all overwhelming conquerors through Him who loved us.

Indeed, how will him who did not spare his own son but gave him up for us all not with him give us all things? If that "us" is all humanity, all humanity gets all things, i.e., the justification, the intercession, the conquering. And that's universalism if anything ever was.

Most Arminians will concede that at least this is refering to the particular benefits of the atonement for the saints, even if they maintain the atonement is still general. To say the "us all" of verse 34 is all humanity extremely uncommon, for obvious reason: the "us" for the rest of the chapter can only be the Christian.

 

[JDS]

Are you trying to get some sleep?

Continuing my treatment of election according to the foreknowledge of God (see my previous comments on the subject), I offer the means by which God elects.

I have said this before but some of you are new here and need to know this.

Most passages in Scripture dealing with salvation has all 3 members of the trinity involved. I can give example of this from almost anywhere. Here is one from Ro 8.

Ro 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint–heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together.

Now, in Romans 8, the ministry of the life giving Spirit of God is highlighted but the trinity fills the scene.
_________

Lets try another:

Eph 1:

Eph 2:18 For through him (Jesus Christ) we both (Jews and gentiles) have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

This is the means of election in this trinitarian verse.
_________________

Important point 1) - The trinity is equally involved in the salvation of man
Important Point 2) - The functions of the trinity in that salvation are different
Important point 3) - These differences must be noted and appreciated

For instance, one cannot fail to have God justifying believers, the Holy Spirit sanctifying believers, and Jesus Christ redeeming believers by his blood. There are 14 words under the umbrella of salvation and each member of the godhead are associated with each of those terms.

For instance
Propitiation - Jesus Christ
Imputation - God the Father
Regeneration - Holy Ghost
Etc

It is God who chooses those whom Jesus Christ has redeemed and the Holy Ghost has sanctified by his indwelling presence.

All three member of the Godhead are said to indwell the believer in Jesus.
Jesus Christ - Ep 3:17
God the Father - 2 Cor 6:16
The Spirit - Ro 8:11

However, we know this is true because God is one in unity and if the Holy Spirit indwells men, God indwells men. However it is the function of the Holy Spirit to indwell men. Jesus Christ is a man, like we are. and he is sitting on the Fathers throne in heaven where the Father is. We understand this. The Spirit of God is on the earth since Acts 2.

Which of the Godhead does the electing and when and on what basis does he elect. We have this truth stated for the Jews and for the gentiles.

First the Jews:

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

This is a trinity verse. All 3 members of the Godhead are functioning in this verse.

God is electing according to his foreknowledge
The Spirit is sanctifying unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ
Jesus Christ is redeeming by his blood

God the Father is electing through sanctification of the Spirit unto the spinkling of the blood.

This is different from his election of all Israel like he had done in the OT.

Isa 45:4 For Jacob my servant’s sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

That election was a family and this election is individuals of Israel who are sanctified by the Spirit. See Ro 11.
______________

The Gentiles:

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Nothing about foreknowledge here and the omission is very important. These are gentiles. No covenants were made with them concerning a promise of the Spirit and salvation. (Look at my previous post dealing with foreknowledge)

This is a trintarian passage.

God chooses those whom the Spirit sanctifies and the Spirit sanctifies them who believe the truth, who is Jesus Christ. They were called to that sanctification by the gospel.

The beginning is the gentiles inclusion into the grace of God beginning with Cornelius in Acts 10:

Ac 11:15 And as I (Peter) began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them (Cornelius and his house), as on us (the Jews in Acts 2) at the beginning.

This was the beginning for the gentiles.

There is more but I intend this to be edifying and thought provoking and we can all arrive at the truth together. Meditate on these things!

 

[Hammster]

Although I am sure to disagree with you, I am trying to understand your take on election and foreknowledge. I read you post from this morning and I am not sure I understand what you were getting at. If you could briefly give me an idea of what you think the bible means by election, that would be great.

Also, you said that just because God has foreknowledge doesn't mean it has to happen, or something to that effect. Could you explain that too, please?

And one last thing, could you explain how those two views fit with Romans 8:28-30? Thanks.

 

[Robert Pate]

Continuing my treatment of election according to the foreknowledge of God (see my previous comments on the subject), I offer the means by which God elects.

I have said this before but some of you are new here and need to know this.

Most passages in Scripture dealing with salvation has all 3 members of the trinity involved. I can give example of this from almost anywhere. Here is one from Ro 8.

Ro 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint–heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together.

Now, in Romans 8, the ministry of the life giving Spirit of God is highlighted but the trinity fills the scene.
_________

Lets try another:

Eph 1:

Eph 2:18 For through him (Jesus Christ) we both (Jews and gentiles) have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

This is the means of election in this trinitarian verse.
_________________

Important point 1) - The trinity is equally involved in the salvation of man
Important Point 2) - The functions of the trinity in that salvation are different
Important point 3) - These differences must be noted and appreciated

For instance, one cannot fail to have God justifying believers, the Holy Spirit sanctifying believers, and Jesus Christ redeeming believers by his blood. There are 14 words under the umbrella of salvation and each member of the godhead are associated with each of those terms.

For instance
Propitiation - Jesus Christ
Imputation - God the Father
Regeneration - Holy Ghost
Etc

It is God who chooses those whom Jesus Christ has redeemed and the Holy Ghost has sanctified by his indwelling presence.

All three member of the Godhead are said to indwell the believer in Jesus.
Jesus Christ - Ep 3:17
God the Father - 2 Cor 6:16
The Spirit - Ro 8:11

However, we know this is true because God is one in unity and if the Holy Spirit indwells men, God indwells men. However it is the function of the Holy Spirit to indwell men. Jesus Christ is a man, like we are. and he is sitting on the Fathers throne in heaven where the Father is. We understand this. The Spirit of God is on the earth since Acts 2.

Which of the Godhead does the electing and when and on what basis does he elect. We have this truth stated for the Jews and for the gentiles.

First the Jews:

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

This is a trinity verse. All 3 members of the Godhead are functioning in this verse.

God is electing according to his foreknowledge
The Spirit is sanctifying unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ
Jesus Christ is redeeming by his blood

God the Father is electing through sanctification of the Spirit unto the spinkling of the blood.

This is different from his election of all Israel like he had done in the OT.

Isa 45:4 For Jacob my servant’s sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

That election was a family and this election is individuals of Israel who are sanctified by the Spirit. See Ro 11.
______________

The Gentiles:

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Nothing about foreknowledge here and the omission is very important. These are gentiles. No covenants were made with them concerning a promise of the Spirit and salvation. (Look at my previous post dealing with foreknowledge)

This is a trintarian passage.

God chooses those whom the Spirit sanctifies and the Spirit sanctifies them who believe the truth, who is Jesus Christ. They were called to that sanctification by the gospel.

The beginning is the gentiles inclusion into the grace of God beginning with Cornelius in Acts 10:

Ac 11:15 And as I (Peter) began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them (Cornelius and his house), as on us (the Jews in Acts 2) at the beginning.

This was the beginning for the gentiles.

There is more but I intend this to be edifying and thought provoking and we can all arrive at the truth together. Meditate on these things!

In the Gospel God in the person of Jesus Christ provides salvation for ALL.

Romans 5:19 "For as by one man's disobedience (Adam) many (all of humanity) were MADE sinners, so as by the obedience of one (Christ) many (all of humanity) shall be MADE righteous."

This is Gods great free gift to ALL of humanity. Romans 5:15-18 the free gift of God is mentioned 5 times. In the Gospel we have been MADE perfect and complete in him, Colossians 2:10.

All that Jesus Christ is and all that he has done is ours by faith. Those who have accepted this Gospel have ceased from their own works and have entered into his rest, Hebrews 4:10.

 

[Epiphoskei]

Providing salvation for all cannot be argued from "many shall be made righteous." It doesn't say "all can be," it says "many will be." The matter of "many" aside, if you assert all will be made righteous, I expect you to live with the consequencs of your view: every single human being will be righteous. That's universalism, unless God damns the righteous.

 

[JDS]

Although I am sure to disagree with you, I am trying to understand your take on election and foreknowledge. I read you post from this morning and I am not sure I understand what you were getting at. If you could briefly give me an idea of what you think the bible means by election, that would be great.

Also, you said that just because God has foreknowledge doesn't mean it has to happen, or something to that effect. Could you explain that too, please?

And one last thing, could you explain how those two views fit with Romans 8:28-30? Thanks.

Briefly because it is bedtime:

The covenants with Israel through which he promised the Spirit and salvation were ligitimate offers and had Israel accepted the terms of the new covenant, history would have been written differently. The manner in which God allowed for either acceptance or rejection is written in the OT. The church is not a subject of OT prophecy and had the Jews been nationally saved, the gentiles would have been saved as well but the church that is being formed because of the Jews rejection, and to provoke them to jealousy, see Ro 11, would have not been realized.

But God knew beforehand the response of the Jews and he knew he would save them apart from a national salvation so he gave the ones who would believe, the spiritual provisions of the covenant, the forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Ghost, and while Israel remained a nation (until AD 70), the blessings of physical healing, see James 5. This is the meaning of God's foreknowledge. Later, God made the gentiles, with whom he had made no covenant wherein he promised salvation, PARTAKERS with the elect Jews in this salvation. To the Jews, salvation was promised in the covenants, but to the gentiles, it was by grace alone.

The covenants are what gave the Jews hope of salvation because they contained the promises from God. However, the gentiles are said by the apostle Paul in ep 2:9,10 to have been in time past to have had no hope, to be without Christ, without God, aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise.

This is the reason Paul used phraseology as he did in Ephesians where he explained the church as the mystery of Christ, hidden until it was revealed in this age, after tjhe inclusions of the gentiles.

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

This is the type of distinction he intentionally makes in this epistle because the Jews were saved by promise and the gentiles were saved by grace.

In the book of Acts, grace is used once only when Peter was the main preacher and the Jews were the target of the gospel, but it was used 8 times when Paul was the preacher and the gentiles were being evangelized. These distinctions are important and instructive.

 

[archierieus]

Where are you fact checking? Again, I trust you're acting in good faith, but that is not remotely the consensus. People don't fact check Dan Wallace, they check everyone else by Dan Wallace. It is the unanimous testimony of the better Greek grammars that the aorist is not driven by aktionsart.

The fact remains that in Greek, unlike English, where tense typically denotes the 'time' of action, the KIND of action (so-called aktionsart) is of great significance. I note that particularly in this case, where the occurrence at issue is in the subjunctive rather than indicative.

 

[archierieus]

I am interested in knowing what your take is on the John 3 passage.

Setting aside the idea about natural birth (which does not appear credible to this student based on the following information: 1) Jesus nowhere describes physical birth in this way, nor do other NT writers; 2) Jesus and other writers do describe physical birth in a different way, consistently; 3) the person Jesus is speaking about has already been born, Jesus is saying he must be born again; 4) The Gk. word is, as noted above, water in a stream, river, fountain) I would tentatively rule out that option, and look for other options. It would be necessary to go outside the passage IMO to find the answer.

Jesus spoke of water in a symbolic sense in a couple other places in John, identified in ch. 7 or so as the Holy Spirit. However, in ch. 3 He also mentions the Spirit, so in that case water would appear to be something different. Paul the apostle describes the washing of regeneration through the Word, although NOT identifying the Word symbolically as water. BUT Jesus does not so describe the Word. In John's gospel, Jesus describes the Word as the Word, ho logos. Never does He characterize the Word as water. I therefore tentatively rule out both the Spirit and the Word, for those reasons.

Next thing I would look into is any other place in John's gospel where water and the Spirit are specifically mentioned in connection. I find one such place in ch. 1, where Jesus was baptized by water and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him. I do not recall any other places in John. I would then inquire if baptism by water pertains to being regenerated. I do not find a discourse on that subject presented by Jesus, only the charge to His disciples to go into all the world, baptizing in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I therefore must go outside John's gospel to find such a discourse. I do find one on it by Paul, in Romans 6. Paul says:

3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

I see here described, dying to the old life and starting a new life, that is, a regeneration. And I see this regeneration, this beginning a new life, connected by Paul with baptism. Without a doubt, then, baptism is connected Scripturally with a regeneration, ending or dying to the old life, and beginning a new life, with Christ living in us and through us. Is this the same regeneration that Jesus spoke of? Is there more than one regeneration? This might be a question to look at.

To summarize, then:

1) Jesus spoke of regeneration by water and the Spirit, Jn. 3:5.
2) Water baptism is connected with regeneration, Rom. 6:1 - 7, and with the outpouring of the Spirit, , Jn. 1--thus water and the Spirit.

Are these one and the same events, or is there more than one regeneration? I see the following match-up:

Regeneration ====== Regeneration
Water =========== Water
Spirit ============ Spirit

Seems so far like one and the same event.

Dave

 

[archierieus]

Providing salvation for all cannot be argued from "many shall be made righteous."

However, Paul says 'many' were made sinners. 'Many' is 'many, same Gk. word. 'Many' were made sinners? How many? Are you suggesting that not all were made sinners?

It doesn't say "all can be," it says "many will be."

It doesn't say, 'all can't be,' correct? Saying 'many will be' doesn't negate the possibility of 'all can be,' correct?

The matter of "many" aside, if you assert all will be made righteous, I expect you to live with the consequencs of your view: every single human being will be righteous. That's universalism, unless God damns the righteous.

What is meant in the verse by 'shall be made righteous'?

δίκαιοι κατασταθήσονται (future passive indicative) οἱ πολλοί

 

[Hammster]

Briefly because it is bedtime:



The covenants with Israel through which he promised the Spirit and salvation were ligitimate offers and had Israel accepted the terms of the new covenant, history would have been written differently. The manner in which God allowed for either acceptance or rejection is written in the OT. The church is not a subject of OT prophecy and had the Jews been nationally saved, the gentiles would have been saved as well but the church that is being formed because of the Jews rejection, and to provoke them to jealousy, see Ro 11, would have not been realized.



But God knew beforehand the response of the Jews and he knew he would save them apart from a national salvation so he gave the ones who would believe, the spiritual provisions of the covenant, the forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Ghost, and while Israel remained a nation (until AD 70), the blessings of physical healing, see James 5. This is the meaning of God's foreknowledge. Later, God made the gentiles, with whom he had made no covenant wherein he promised salvation, PARTAKERS with the elect Jews in this salvation. To the Jews, salvation was promised in the covenants, but to the gentiles, it was by grace alone.



The covenants are what gave the Jews hope of salvation because they contained the promises from God. However, the gentiles are said by the apostle Paul in ep 2:9,10 to have been in time past to have had no hope, to be without Christ, without God, aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise.



This is the reason Paul used phraseology as he did in Ephesians where he explained the church as the mystery of Christ, hidden until it was revealed in this age, after tjhe inclusions of the gentiles.



5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)



This is the type of distinction he intentionally makes in this epistle because the Jews were saved by promise and the gentiles were saved by grace.



In the book of Acts, grace is used once only when Peter was the main preacher and the Jews were the target of the gospel, but it was used 8 times when Paul was the preacher and the gentiles were being evangelized. These distinctions are important and instructive.

I am not sure if I understand you, but I will take a stab at it."

Are you saying that the elect is the institution of the church and God had foreknowledge of starting the church? If that is so, the with that in mind, could you explain Romans 828-30 using your view?

If that isn't what you are saying, I apologize for not following and would ask for you to just say in straight talk what your view is and if I need additional verses, I can ask... Thanks.

 

[JDS]

To summarize, then:

1) Jesus spoke of regeneration by water and the Spirit, Jn. 3:5.
2) Water baptism is connected with regeneration, Rom. 6:1 - 7, and with the outpouring of the Spirit, , Jn. 1--thus water and the Spirit.

Are these one and the same events, or is there more than one regeneration? I see the following match-up:

Regeneration ====== Regeneration
Water =========== Water
Spirit ============ Spirit

Seems so far like one and the same event.

Dave

The context in Jn 3 is Jewish, not Christian. Nicodemas was a ruler of the Jews. The issue is how to get into the kingdom, not how to get into the church. Jesus Christ and his disciples had been teaching and preaching the gospel of the kingdom was "at hand". It was not present when Jesus spoke to nicodemas and told him he had to be born again to enter into it or to see (perceive) it.

How then would a man be born again, he wonders, and Jesus Christ said that he, the Messiah of Israel, must be lifted up in the same way that Moses lifted up the brass serpent in the wilderness. The brass serpent was lifted up because of the snake bites that brought sure death and looking on it was a miraculous healing for everyone who looked.

Jesus Christ had not been lifted up in Jn 3 and his kingdom was not established. He has been lifted up now and men are being born again of the Spirit by simply believing in him. Believing is what was prefigured by looking.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Jesus Christ has not established his kingdom and will not until all of his subjects are born again because that is the condition for entering into it. There must be time after he is lifted up for the Israelites to "look" and live, so he sent his preachers to them and called every single one of them to come to Jesus Christ and be born again.

Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Ac 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

The Lord sent his Spirit to Israel in such abundance that he referred to it as a baptism of the Spirit. They were immersed in the Spirit, but the condition for them to receive him personally (each one) was belief in The name of Jesus Christ (His name means Jehovah is Salvation) and baptism in water for the remission of sins. See Acts 2:38 and Acts 8; Acts 19:1-7.

The kingdom was rejected by those to whom it was offered, Israel, and they refused to receive the Spirit of God and be born again and God responded by dispersing them as a nation into the world while offering his Spirit to individuals among the nations who would receive him by simple faith. In this manner, a spiritual kingdom where God reigned from within was established and believers enter into this kingdom by being born again.

However, God has made covenants with Israel and promised them full salvation and national identity, and the Land of Palestine and a King to reign over them forever and so he will remove the spiritual kingdom soon and purge out the rebels from Israel, and the world, and return to rule from Jerusalem over Israel, and by extension, over the whole earth. All who enter into this kingdom will be born again and those who will not be born again will be killed by the fierce anger of God during the great tribulation that is coming soon on the earth.

The gentiles were never requores to be baptized in water as a means to receive the Holy Ghost. They were commanded to be baptized after they received him and was born again and so it is to this day, Baptism in water is not essential to receiving the Spirit, the agent of the new birth.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44 ¶ While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Acts 11:14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

All one needs to do is compare the Jews recieving the Gift of the Holy Ghost in Acts 2 and Acts 8 and the gentiles receiving him in Acts 10 and 11 that the condition for receiving him was different and that water baptism was not a condition for the gentiles. Since the dispersion of Israel in AD 70, this is the only condition for the Jews as well.

 

[MamaZ]

Setting aside the idea about natural birth (which does not appear credible to this student based on the following information: 1) Jesus nowhere describes physical birth in this way, nor do other NT writers; 2) Jesus and other writers do describe physical birth in a different way, consistently; 3) the person Jesus is speaking about has already been born, Jesus is saying he must be born again; 4) The Gk. word is, as noted above, water in a stream, river, fountain) I would tentatively rule out that option, and look for other options. It would be necessary to go outside the passage IMO to find the answer.

Jesus spoke of water in a symbolic sense in a couple other places in John, identified in ch. 7 or so as the Holy Spirit. However, in ch. 3 He also mentions the Spirit, so in that case water would appear to be something different. Paul the apostle describes the washing of regeneration through the Word, although NOT identifying the Word symbolically as water. BUT Jesus does not so describe the Word. In John's gospel, Jesus describes the Word as the Word, ho logos. Never does He characterize the Word as water. I therefore tentatively rule out both the Spirit and the Word, for those reasons.

Next thing I would look into is any other place in John's gospel where water and the Spirit are specifically mentioned in connection. I find one such place in ch. 1, where Jesus was baptized by water and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him. I do not recall any other places in John. I would then inquire if baptism by water pertains to being regenerated. I do not find a discourse on that subject presented by Jesus, only the charge to His disciples to go into all the world, baptizing in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I therefore must go outside John's gospel to find such a discourse. I do find one on it by Paul, in Romans 6. Paul says:



I see here described, dying to the old life and starting a new life, that is, a regeneration. And I see this regeneration, this beginning a new life, connected by Paul with baptism. Without a doubt, then, baptism is connected Scripturally with a regeneration, ending or dying to the old life, and beginning a new life, with Christ living in us and through us. Is this the same regeneration that Jesus spoke of? Is there more than one regeneration? This might be a question to look at.

To summarize, then:

1) Jesus spoke of regeneration by water and the Spirit, Jn. 3:5.
2) Water baptism is connected with regeneration, Rom. 6:1 - 7, and with the outpouring of the Spirit, , Jn. 1--thus water and the Spirit.

Are these one and the same events, or is there more than one regeneration? I see the following match-up:

Regeneration ====== Regeneration
Water =========== Water
Spirit ============ Spirit

Seems so far like one and the same event.

Dave

So setting aside what Jesus was really saying in this passage because you just cant accept it in the context of what is being said says alot to me and now I know that you set aside passages to persue your own agenda with the human logic of man It is really hard to follow you with your human logic. For human Logic is not what scripture is based on..

 

[JDS]

I am not sure if I understand you, but I will take a stab at it."

Are you saying that the elect is the institution of the church and God had foreknowledge of starting the church? If that is so, the with that in mind, could you explain Romans 828-30 using your view?

If that isn't what you are saying, I apologize for not following and would ask for you to just say in straight talk what your view is and if I need additional verses, I can ask... Thanks.

The bible is a Jewish book and it is not intended to be a religious book.

I will be back later to answer your question.

 

[MamaZ]

Jesus describes the birth to Niccodemus. I don't see anywhere else that birth is explained in the scripture. Niccodemus had asked a Specific question to Jesus and Jesus explained.. Why is it so hard to grasp what Jesus is speaking of..

 

[drstevej]

The bible is a Jewish book and it is not intended to be a religious book.

You going postmodern on us?

 

[JDS]

So setting aside what Jesus was really saying in this passage because you just cant accept it in the context of what is being said says alot to me and now I know that you set aside passages to persue your own agenda with the human logic of man It is really hard to follow you with your human logic. For human Logic is not what scripture is based on..

The fellow spent a lot of time presenting his view. Why don't you one time deal with the argument and present the truth as you see it instead of saying every one is wrong because you are right?

Your approach to these discussions is redundant and tiring!

 

[MamaZ]

The bible is a Jewish book and it is not intended to be a religious book.

I will be back later to answer your question.

The bible is more than a Jewish book JDS. The bible is the very breathe of God for all His believers. Jew and Gentile.. When one has been born anew from the Spirit of God He is born of the very Spirit of the God of Isreal.. For there is only one God.