Calvinism Refuted

[Benefactor]

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Spirit is not mentioned in v. 3 either. A reasonable match is that v. 5 gives further detail about the message in v. 3. Being born again means to be born of water and the Spirit. I think there is good support for this understanding, but will get to that a bit later.

As for the alternative of 'born of flesh' referring to physical birth, doesn't appear to add up. 1) everywhere else natural birth is spoken of, it is described as 'born of a woman' and the like. 2) nowhere else is natural birth spoken of as born of water.

There is evidence of baptism by immersion signifying a death to the old life and raised up to begin a new life. See Rom. 6. There is also evidence connecting water baptism with baptism by the Holy Spirit, see for example the dove alighting on Jesus at His baptism.

Dave

Over the years the following are the views I have read or heard of:'

Water = natural birth
Water = the word of God
Water = baptism

I use to hold to water meaning the word of God and later changed to natural birth.

One thing is for sure is that whatever this metaphor's literal meaning it is a must or pre-requisite for spiritual birth.

 

[Hammster]

It is impossible for you to factually prove your theory

So now are you saying that you don't need faith, just simple belief?

 

[archierieus]

One dangerous feature of some of the beliefs expressed on this thread is the notion that a person will be saved automatically. I simply see several variants of this belief:

1) OSAS believe you will be saved regardless of what you do, but if you do good then you get more rewards in heaven;
2) RC's believe that if you are baptized RC you will be saved, but if you do a lot of bad things you will spend more time in purgatory--but will still eventually to to heaven;
3) Calvinists believe that if you are one whom God has chosen to be saved, you WILL be saved, regardless of what you do, because God has decided it, and God will override your will if necessary, in order to save you.

Different ways to reach the same bottom line, assurance of salvation without regard to the life choices of the individual. As I read the Bible, such an assurance is false.

Dave

 

[archierieus]

One thing is for sure is that whatever this metaphor's literal meaning it is a must or pre-requisite for spiritual birth.

Agreed. As is repentance.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

So now are you saying that you don't need faith, just simple belief?

I would say they are technically the same thing

Matthew 21:21 Answering the Jesus said to them "verily I am saying to ye, if ever ye may be having Faith and no ye may be doubting, not only the of the fig-tree ye shall be doing, but even-ever to the Mountain, this ye may saying 'be being lifted up! and be being cast! into the Sea' it shall be becoming"; [Revelation 8:8]

Reve 8:8 And the second Messenger trumpets and as-like a Mountain, great to fire burning, was cast into the Sea and became the third of the Sea blood [Matthew 21:21/Hebrew 12:18]

 

[Hammster]

Over the years the following are the views I have read or heard of:'



Water = natural birth

Water = the word of God

Water = baptism



I use to hold to water meaning the word of God and later changed to natural birth.



One thing is for sure is that whatever this metaphor's literal meaning it is a must or pre-requisite for spiritual birth.

Can you show how it is "for sure", and not the spiritual birth itself,

 

[archierieus]

This is interesting. So Satan is trying to prevent us from believing and God, The Good Shepherd, is reaching out to help them and rescuing them from Satan.

But if we pray and put on the whole armor of God, it will help Him save us.

I am not sure why a non-believer would pray that, or even know what it is, but what do I know.

Oh, yeah....got scripture?

Paul's admonition about the whole armor of God is addressed to believers who are already connected to Christ. As for non-believers, God is reaching out to them to help them see their need of a Savior, and to point them to Jesus. As they recognize their sinfulness in comparison with Jesus' purity, they are led to repentance and the desire for a better way, and are drawn to Jesus by the Holy Spirit. (Jn. 12:32) The goodness of God leads them to repentance and to accept Jesus as their Savior. As for Scripture, yes, glad to provide them, a bit later.

 

[nobdysfool]

Over the years the following are the views I have read or heard of:'

Water = natural birth
Water = the word of God
Water = baptism

I use to hold to water meaning the word of God and later changed to natural birth.

One thing is for sure is that whatever this metaphor's literal meaning it is a must or pre-requisite for spiritual birth.

Natural (physical) birth is an obvious prerequisite.

 

[Benefactor]

So now are you saying that you don't need faith, just simple belief?

So you are saying that you can prove that the term "simple faith" is taught in the Bible" Are you saying that this is true or false?

 

[Hammster]

Paul's admonition about the whole armor of God is addressed to believers who are already connected to Christ. As for non-believers, God is reaching out to them to help them see their need of a Savior, and to point them to Jesus. As they recognize their sinfulness in comparison with Jesus' purity, they are led to repentance and the desire for a better way, and are drawn to Jesus by the Holy Spirit. (Jn. 12:32) The goodness of God leads them to repentance and to accept Jesus as their Savior. As for Scripture, yes, glad to provide them, a bit later.

1. I know about the armor of God. It was you that used it inappropriately. Sorry, I forgot about not using sarcasm.

2. You have a very weak view of God if tHe can't convince someone of their sin.

3. All doesn't always mean every single person. (got verses if you want them)

 

[archierieus]

2. You have a very weak view of God if tHe can't convince someone of their sin.

Convincing of sin is done by the Holy Spirit, Jn. 16. What a person does once that conviction hits, is the issue.

3. All doesn't always mean every single person. (got verses if you want them)

Please do share them. An important topic to address. Standing by.

 

[Benefactor]

Natural (physical) birth is an obvious prerequisite.

What is your specific view of what Water means? Your specific view

A. The Word
B. Baptism
C. Natural Birth
D. _____________ if none of the above fill in the blank.

 

[Benefactor]

Agreed. As is repentance.

agree

 

[archierieus]

agree

We see the Bible teaching about being born again, regeneration, and we see that repentance precedes being born again. I should point out that what Calvinists refer to as 'regeneration' appears to be something different. It is not what the Bible says about the term. It appears to be a preliminary step, a spiritual awakening.

But as for the sequence of repentance and Scriptural regeneration, Romans 6 is very helpful in understanding the sequence. We also should address the place and role of faith in the process. Belief and faith. It may have been suggested, by Hammster I believe, that there is a difference between the two?? Where does belief fit it, where does faith fit in, and are they different?

Dave

 

[Hammster]

Does all always mean everyone or every thing? Let's take a look.



1 Corinthians 10:23 ALL things are lawful, but not all things are profitable. (Try that with the cops)



1 Corinthians 15;22 For as in Adam ALL die, so also in Christ ALL shall be made alive. (I wonder what Pharaoh, Hitler, Saddam, etc. think about that)



1 Peter1:24 All flesh is like grass... (Jesus must be getting pretty old by now)



Luke 13:17 As He said these things ALL His adversaries were put to shame and ALL the people rejoiced at all the glorious things done by Him. (So every adversary was put to shame AND rejoiced. And they did this with every person on the planet then and now. )



Mark 1:5 And ALL the country of Judea and ALL Jerusalem were going out to see him. (John the Baptist sure could draw a crowd)

 

[Hammster]

So you are saying that you can prove that the term "simple faith" is taught in the Bible" Are you saying that this is true or false?

Nope. Never claimed it.

 

[Hammster]

We see the Bible teaching about being born again, regeneration, and we see that repentance precedes being born again. I should point out that what Calvinists refer to as 'regeneration' appears to be something different. It is not what the Bible says about the term. It appears to be a preliminary step, a spiritual awakening.



But as for the sequence of repentance and Scriptural regeneration, Romans 6 is very helpful in understanding the sequence. We also should address the place and role of faith in the process. Belief and faith. It may have been suggested, by Hammster I believe, that there is a difference between the two?? Where does belief fit it, where does faith fit in, and are they different?



Dave

Here we go again. Someone coming into this thread to dispute Calvinism who doesn't even know what it teaches. How can that be?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

1 Peter1:24 All flesh is like grass... (Jesus must be getting pretty old by now)

Including lots of "gray hair"

Revelation 1:13 And in midst of the *seven lampstands one-like a Son of Man having been clothed to feet and having been about-girded towards the breasts a purse/girdle, golden.
14 The yet head of Him and the hairs white as wool/erion <2053>, white as snow/ciwn <5510>, and the eyes of Him as flame of fire.

Daneiel 7:9 Perceiving I was until that thrones they were heaved and Ancient of days He sat, clothing of Him as snow/08517 t@lag pale and hair of head of Him as wool/06015 `amar, immaculate, throne of Him fiery that of flame, wheels of him flame flashing.

 

[archierieus]

Here we go again. Someone coming into this thread to dispute Calvinism who doesn't even know what it teaches. How can that be?

Then please do share your understanding of the issue you mentioned a few posts back--which is, you seem to see a difference between belief and faith, in some way. Please specify and clarify.

As for the Calvinist view of 'regeneration,' we are familiar with that generally speaking. At the moment, we are looking at the Scriptural teaching about regeneration, rather than the Calvinist view which so far does not appear to be Scriptural. Another term would perhaps be more appropriate and less confusing for that early stage of spiritual growth.

 

[Hammster]

A re-answering of Bene's question.



In the OT (Jesus' bible. And Nicodemus', too) there are references to water and Spirit are together indicating the pouring out of God's Spirit.


A good argument could be made that Ezekiel 36:25-27 is in reference here because Jesus comment on Nick's not understanding what He was talking about. So one way or another there must be some connection to the OT.