Calvinism Refuted

[archierieus]

I was being a little facetious. It is possible to import specious reasoning and "jesuitical" sophistry and so on to warp and twist the Scripture.

This seems to happen most often when we approach the Bible with a presupposition and go looking for support.

Indeed. And doing so is totally unacceptable. A cardinal rule for serious students of Scripture is for the student to set aside his or her own agenda or mindset and accept the Bible as it reads, not reading things into it.

 

[Hammster]

That is an abstract statement. Please give specifics.

You really need to learn to lighten up a bit. Loosen the tie. It was a joke.

 

[Bulstrode Whitelock]

At the risk of derailing and starting a new discussion it probably is worthwhile to point out that we live between extremes: on the one hand it is necessary to use our god given reason to understand the Bible and yet on the other we are called to understand that it will be illumined to us by the working of the Holy Spirit.

Unfortunately a kind of either/or fallacy can get thrown in when we are encouraged to either extreme, on the one hand rationalism, on the other enthusiasm.

 

[drstevej]

Indeed. And doing so is totally unacceptable. A cardinal rule for serious students of Scripture is for the student to set aside his or her own agenda or mindset and accept the Bible as it reads, not reading things into it.

Like Judge Bork with the Constitution, we seek the original intent of the author.

 

[cygnusx1]

Even though the unregenerate, non-Christian does not have the ability to be good under grace, nevertheless, does he have the ability to recognize a spiritual good fulfilled by a regenerate Christian, and therefore desire the good, and exercise his will by crying out to God for mercy?

in a word , no , the need for rebirth is to create within us a clean heart undefiled and made willing , if men have not lost these 'attributes' (Spiritual desires , doing all for God's Glory , suffering for the Lord , putting the Lord before all ) then no need of a new heart and the FALL of man is but a tumble.

 

[Bulstrode Whitelock]

I really like the way DrSteve put it, the good deeds of the unregenerate are full of self-glory.

 

[archierieus]

It was a joke.

Ahh, okay. That type of thing is something I take very, very seriously.

 

[Hammster]

I have. And I discovered that Calvinism as presented in discussions I participated in, has been a mixture of Scripture and rationales/philosophy, with the rationales/philosophy filtering how Scripture is understood. To a serious student of Scripture, that is anathema.

Aahh. A serious student. Us goofballs will just have to sit back and be amazed.

 

[cygnusx1]

At the risk of derailing and starting a new discussion it probably is worthwhile to point out that we live between extremes: on the one hand it is necessary to use our god given reason to understand the Bible and yet on the other we are called to understand that it will be illumined to us by the working of the Holy Spirit.

Unfortunately a kind of either/or fallacy can get thrown in when we are encouraged to either extreme, on the one hand rationalism, on the other enthusiasm.

absolutely correct bro , rationalism is placing one's understanding over and against God's word and will , on the other hand a denial of the use of reason and logic makes us incapable of understanding , the extremes are to be avoided , shame is they are used as ammunition , as if firing at one another can build up.

 

[Tzaousios]

Even though the unregenerate, non-Christian does not have the ability to be good under grace, nevertheless, does he have the ability to recognize a spiritual good fulfilled by a regenerate Christian, and therefore desire the good, and exercise his will by crying out to God for mercy?

I would be most grateful if someone would examine my question above. Despite all the recent bickering in here, I think it is relavent to at least one of the multiple discussions going on. Thanks!

 

[Hammster]

Model the qualities you would like to see in other participants, and notice the positive influence of doing so.

Well, you're off to a bad start.

 

[cygnusx1]

I really like the way DrSteve put it, the good deeds of the unregenerate are full of self-glory.

anyone who knows their own fleshly heart knows painfully it is so , those who don't know it can only ponder why every Christian casts their crown at Christs feet .

 

[Bulstrode Whitelock]

Even though the unregenerate, non-Christian does not have the ability to be good under grace, nevertheless, does he have the ability to recognize a spiritual good fulfilled by a regenerate Christian, and therefore desire the good, and exercise his will by crying out to God for mercy?

Yes, and this is often how the unregenerate first begin to believe. The Gospel can be preached with words or modeled by believers or both.

Now, if you mean the non-elect rather than the unregenerate which is what we all were once, then the answer changes.

The non-elect will not see the grace of God in the good works of the faithful, though he may see an opportunity to emulate them for the sake of self-glory.

 

[archierieus]

Aahh. A serious student. Us goofballs will just have to sit back and be amazed.

I hope you and other participants will stay on topic.

 

[Hammster]

Yes, and this is often how the unregenerate first begin to believe. The Gospel can be preached with words or modeled by believers or both.



Now, if you mean the non-elect rather than the unregenerate which is what we all were once, then the answer changes.



The non-elect will not see the grace of God in the good works of the faithful, though he may see an opportunity to emulate them for the sake of self-glory.

Good answer.

 

[archierieus]

he may see an opportunity to emulate them for the sake of self-glory.

Not necessarily. There may indeed be altruistic people who want to do what is right for the sake of doing right.

 

[Bulstrode Whitelock]

I hope you and other participants will stay on topic.

Well, currently, the discussion seems to have faltered a bit.

Maybe you can get us back on track.

I would have difficulty point to a passage of Scripture which supports my belief since I believe the whole Bible does so.

Is there a particular passage that you believe we abuse?

 

[Hammster]

I hope you and other participants will stay on topic.

I figured that since you insulted us, I would entertain myself.

Does this mean that you won't tell me what you mean by faith and belief?

 

[&Abel]

He is right on.

Unregenerate works are tainted with self glory.

Good works are not good before God if the motive is wrong.

So please be more charitable to our new participant.

Hebrews 11

31By faith (BN)Rahab the harlot did not perish along with those who were disobedient, after she had welcomed the spies in peace.

James 2

25In the same way, was not (AR)Rahab the harlot also justified by works (AS)when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also (AT)faith without works is dead.


Joshua 6


17"The city shall be (G)under the ban, it and all that is in it belongs to the LORD; only Rahab the harlot and all who are with her in the house shall live, because she hid the messengers whom we sent.

Joshua 2

10"(G)For we have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red Sea before you when you came out of Egypt, and (H)what you did to the two kings of the Amorites who were beyond the Jordan, to Sihon and Og, whom you utterly destroyed.
11"When we heard it, (I)our hearts melted and no courage remained in any man any longer because of you; for the (J)LORD your God, He is God in heaven above and on earth beneath.
12"Now therefore, please swear to me by the LORD, since I have dealt kindly with you, that you also will deal kindly with my father's household, and give me a (K)pledge of truth,
13and spare my father and my mother and my brothers and my sisters, with all who belong to them, and deliver our [a]lives from death."



Rahab had selfish motives as well, as do you

 

[Bulstrode Whitelock]

Not necessarily. There may indeed be altruistic people who want to do what is right for the sake of doing right.

Why would they do that?