Calvinism Refuted

[archierieus]

Where have you seen an THIS thread where any Calvinist has put forward the position that we use a 'secret society' type of evangelism? Your first statement would only make sense in light of that.

'type of evangelism'? The issue arose pertinent to being able to understand certain Scriptures.

pulling verses out of context to get them to mean what you want them to mean.

Actually, that is what I have seen a number of Calvinists do on different threads.

Actually, it HAS been shown time and time again that most of the verses that have been used to refute Calvinism have done no such thing if taken in context.

A preliminary step, prior to considering immediate context, is recognizing word definitions and grammatical issues. Context cannot violate the text. But as for context, Romans ch. 9 is one illustration where many Calvinists have taken a few verses out of context to attempt to support their position. That is one passage we shall be looking at.

As for your last statement, any argument where you can take the subject and replace it with another isn't really a good argument (and I am sure we make them too).

Please explain what you are talking about.

 

[Bulstrode Whitelock]

I mean what your saying is completely out of sync with reality all around us

there is both good and evil in everyone

let me ask you this:

If a Christian's car breaks down and he knocks on the nearest door for help and the person who opens the door invites him in, informs him that he is able to fix his car free of charge and even provides a meal

and yet is not a christian

did that person not do something good? did they not give Christ something to eat and drink?

do you not think that finds favor with god?

No.

The Bible is quite clear, without Christ, all our good deeds are as filthy rags and I will tell you why:

Good works done by the unregenerate testify that the law is good and righteous while at the same time the doers, because they will not believe, spit in the face of Him Who gave it.

These acts of "civil righteousness" earn nothing from God.

 

[Hammster]

Well, JDS keeps bringing it up, I thought it worthwhile to give the point a little more focus but if I am derailing I beg everyones' pardon.

Nothing against you... It's just too easy to get sidetracked.

 

[&Abel]

No.

The Bible is quite clear, without Christ, all our good deeds are as filthy rags and I will tell you why:

Good works done by the unregenerate testify that the law is good and righteous while at the same time the doers, because they will not believe, spit in the face of Him Who gave it.

These acts of "civil righteousness" earn nothing from God.

lol insanity

complete and total insanity

I don't believe you even know god to be quite frank

 

[Bulstrode Whitelock]

lol insanity

complete and total insanity

I don't believe you even know god to be quite frank

Oddly enough, when I read your earlier post to the effect that you knew the Spirit before you heard the Gospel I considered counseling you to change your faith icon but I refrained.

However, if you can't be civil then lets just agree not to talk to one another, okay?

 

[Hammster]

Good, glad to hear that. It is a credible answer. Any believer in Jesus should be able to understand the Bible. And any careful student of Scripture should be able to identify the grammatical and textual issues. They are there quite plainly.



Therefore, if the Scriptural positions relied on by Calvinists are valid, then neutral or non-Calvinist students should be able to look at the same Scriptures and, using recognized, credible methods of textual study, using recognized principles of grammar, reach simiilar conclusions. In fact, one important test of credibility is if any student, anywhere in the world, can review the proposed findings, apply such recognized, credible study methods, and validate such findings.



That minimizes the role of personal opinion or 'secret knowledge,' both of which are quite unreliable.



So then, how about going through the key Scripture passages relied on by Calvinists, one at a time, and see if the position is validated?



Dave

Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. That's why I started believing in the doctrines of grace. You should try it."

 

[Bulstrode Whitelock]

Arch,

Your optimism that Christians, confronted with ample Scriptural proof will see the reason of an argument and conform their belief to it is refreshing.

I do not share it though I certainly wish I did, it is definitely what we are called to do.

 

[drstevej]

lol insanity

complete and total insanity

I don't believe you even know god to be quite frank

He is right on.

Unregenerate works are tainted with self glory.

Good works are not good before God if the motive is wrong.

So please be more charitable to our new participant.

 

[archierieus]

You should try it."

I have. And I discovered that Calvinism as presented in discussions I participated in, has been a mixture of Scripture and rationales/philosophy, with the rationales/philosophy filtering how Scripture is understood. To a serious student of Scripture, that is anathema.

 

[Bulstrode Whitelock]

I have. And I discovered that Calvinism as presented in discussions I participated in, has been a mixture of Scripture and rationales/philosophy, with the rationales/philosophy filtering how Scripture is understood. To a serious student of Scripture, that is anathema.

Is there another way to understand the Bible than with the language centers of the human brain?

 

[drstevej]

I mean what your saying is completely out of sync with reality all around us

there is both good and evil in everyone

let me ask you this:

If a Christian's car breaks down and he knocks on the nearest door for help and the person who opens the door invites him in, informs him that he is able to fix his car free of charge and even provides a meal

and yet is not a christian

did that person not do something good? did they not give Christ something to eat and drink?

do you not think that finds favor with god?

Only good in a relative sense.

"Why do you call me good, there is none good but God."

 

[archierieus]

Arch,

Your optimism that Christians, confronted with ample Scriptural proof will see the reason of an argument and conform their belief to it is refreshing.

I do not share it though I certainly wish I did, it is definitely what we are called to do.

Thank you. Your response is refreshing. I am hopeful that we can participate in a serious Scriptural discussion, unfettered by rhetoric, mud-slinging, vain human philosophy and the like.

 

[Hammster]

Thank you. Your response is refreshing. I am hopeful that we can participate in a serious Scriptural discussion, unfettered by rhetoric, mud-slinging, vain human philosophy and the like.

Well, you're off to a bad start.

 

[archierieus]

So please be more charitable to our new participant.

Absolutely. I do not believe any of us have the right to say, suggest or even question if another member of the forum doesn't know God. To me, that is off limits and a violation of Christ's imperative to not judge the heart.

 

[archierieus]

Well, you're off to a bad start.

That is an abstract statement. Please give specifics.

 

[Bulstrode Whitelock]

Here is how I do it:

I start by realizing that you are real people, then I decide to like you until you give me reason not to.

 

[archierieus]

Is there another way to understand the Bible than with the language centers of the human brain?

That is, indeed, the way humans receive and process information. Any other factors or components should not violate that. IOW there should not be a disconnect.

 

[Tzaousios]

Only good in a relative sense.

"Why do you call me good, there is none good but God."

Even though the unregenerate, non-Christian does not have the ability to be good under grace, nevertheless, does he have the ability to recognize a spiritual good fulfilled by a regenerate Christian, and therefore desire the good, and exercise his will by crying out to God for mercy?

 

[Bulstrode Whitelock]

That is, indeed, the way humans receive and process information. Any other factors or components should not violate that. IOW there should not be a disconnect.

I was being a little facetious. It is possible to import specious reasoning and "jesuitical" sophistry and so on to warp and twist the Scripture.

This seems to happen most often when we approach the Bible with a presupposition and go looking for support.

 

[archierieus]

you will soon discover only some are allowed to use logic here , the rest will be treated as gnostics and heretics .... you will find nothing but inconsistency contradiction and confusion from those who love to put others in their place .....

Model the qualities you would like to see in other participants, and notice the positive influence of doing so.