Calvinism Refuted

[MamaZ]

The scriptures can have no effect on the unelect, according to you, because the unelect cannot believe them, remember? Therefore, the scriptures do not lead to the knowledge of Christ for the majority of people on the planet.

Do you know your own doctrines?

Take you ear plugs out you may be able to hear what one is saying then.. The scripture is the incorruptable word.. We preach Christ.. Him Crucified and Risen.. To those who are the elect the scripture come alive unto them for they are the bread of Life to those whom belong to God.. They are their pathway to knowing and understanding God.. An unregenerated man cannot understand the Spiritual words of scripture. For scripture is Spirit.. It is not of human origin but the breath of God.. When Christ is preached it is God who causes the increase.. Many call us that are Jesus bride freaks..

 

[Bulstrode Whitelock]

How odd then that I see no fundamental disagreement between MamaZ and myself.

Perhaps you could let us know where you see it.

 

[MamaZ]

You apparently did not read the gentlemans comments. Here they are:

All the elect are sinners.

There is no necessity to insert the word "some" because the issue is not the extent of the salvation but the condition and destiny the elect have been saved from.

I am motivated by fear of God to preach the Gospel to sinners, all kinds of them, every one of them because wrath is coming.

And? It is by preaching the Gospel that men are saved because it is in preaching the Gospel that Christ Sheep hear His voice and Follow Him.. God knows His own.. We as His sheep do not.. We just proclaim the Gospel for all to hear.. It is God who does the calling and the saving of mankind.. The wrath of God will soon be poured out on all the earth..

 

[cygnusx1]

Most Calvinists reject as deplorable the following hyper-Calvinistic and destructive beliefs:


- that God is the author of sin and of evil
- that men have no will of their own, and secondary causes are of no effect
- that the number of the elect at any time may be known by men
- that it is wrong to evangelize
- that assurance of election must be sought prior to repentance and faith
- that men who have once sincerely professed belief are saved regardless of what they later do
- that God has chosen some races of men and has rejected others
- that the children of unbelievers dying in infancy are certainly damned
- that God does not command everyone to repent
- that the sacraments are not means of grace, but obstacles to salvation by faith alone.
- that the true church is only invisible, and salvation is not connected with the visible church
- that the Scriptures are intended to be interpreted by individuals only and not by the church.
- that no government is to be obeyed which does not acknowledge that Jesus is the Lord, or that Biblical Law is its source of authority
- that the grace of God does not work for the betterment of all men
- that saving faith is equivalent to belief in the doctrine of predestination
- that only Calvinists are Christians (Neo-gnostic Calvinism

http://www.monergism.com/directory/link_category/HyperCalvinism/

 

[cygnusx1]

can someone show me where in scripture it is stated that all men are called and all men are chosen?

give us a few years , it's pretty hard to find .

 

[JDS]

Are you suggesting that in order to preach the Gospel a Calvinist must say, "Repent and believe, just in case you're elect"? Why would we introduce terms having to do with the extent when the only concern is to indicate the condition?

It is not I who said TULIP is the gospel. If it is the gospel, it should be preached. Why would you not preach it to the lost? TULIP says that most men CANNOT be saved, it does not say they WILL NOT be saved. There is a vast difference.

No there are no categories of sinners, we are all sinners, elect and reprobate alike, there is no difference.

Good, then Jesus Christ died to save sinners. 1 Ti 1:15.

The Gospel is preached in fear of the wrath coming against the wicked. This is why we say repent and believe.

This is new. This is the motivation of the evangelism of the unelect because the wrath of God is coming on those he created for the day of destruction? This one will need some explanation!

Frankly, this issue of election and who is elect and who is not and so on have nothing to do with the presentation of the Gospel. It is broadcast because it is the ordinary means by which sinners are saved(yes, "some" sinners if you like, though I am still puzzled as to why this would need to be included in an earnest call to believe).

Who is and who is not elect has everything to do with the presentation of the gospel. There are specific terms of the gospel that would need to be clarified to the hearer just like you must clarify them to me.

WHOSOEVER shall call upon the name of the Lord is not a term of limitation. This would lead the hearer to believe that salvation comes by calling upobn the name of the Lord and you would either need to omit using a verse like that or explain it. Having God save a man before he called upon him and having a man call upon him for salvation is certainly different.

The atonement is limited to the elect, we don't know who the elect are, so we preach to everyone.

What verses do you preach to them. This is my original question.

 

[JDS]

can someone show me where in scripture it is stated that all men are called and all men are chosen?

Can someone show me where anyone on this thread has made that argument?

 

[MamaZ]

It is not I who said TULIP is the gospel. If it is the gospel, it should be preached. Why would you not preach it to the lost? TULIP says that most men CANNOT be saved, it does not say they WILL NOT be saved. There is a vast difference.



Good, then Jesus Christ died to save sinners. 1 Ti 1:15.



This is new. This is the motivation of the evangelism of the unelect because the wrath of God is coming on those he created for the day of destruction? This one will need some explanation!




Who is and who is not elect has everything to do with the presentation of the gospel. There are specific terms of the gospel that would need to be clarified to the hearer just like you must clarify them to me.

WHOSOEVER shall call upon the name of the Lord is not a term of limitation. This would lead the hearer to believe that salvation comes by calling upobn the name of the Lord and you would either need to omit using a verse like that or explain it. Having God save a man before he called upon him and having a man call upon him for salvation is certainly different.




What verses do you preach to them. This is my original question.

Because the who so ever scripture means that there is neither greek nor Jew for male nor female when it comes to the Body of Christ. We are to preach to whosoever. Our preaching is not limited to just Jews or males or Greek ect..

 

[MamaZ]

Can someone show me where anyone on this thread has made that argument?

Whew.. So either God has chosen some or God has chosen all.. Which is it to you?

 

[JDS]

And? It is by preaching the Gospel that men are saved because it is in preaching the Gospel that Christ Sheep hear His voice and Follow Him.. God knows His own.. We as His sheep do not.. We just proclaim the Gospel for all to hear.. It is God who does the calling and the saving of mankind.. The wrath of God will soon be poured out on all the earth..

You just told me earlier that it was your lifestyle you presented to the world. Which is it?

Someone on this thread has the quote of Spurgeon - Calvinism is the gospel - as his tagline. Calvinism is summarized with TULIP. Do you agree with this definition of the gospel and is this what you are speaking of when you comment "it is by the preaching of the gospel that men are saved"?

 

[JDS]

Because the who so ever scripture means that there is neither greek nor Jew for male nor female when it comes to the Body of Christ. We are to preach to whosoever. Our preaching is not limited to just Jews or males or Greek ect..

You are getting more confusing all the time. Are you now saying you are preaching to the body of Christ and calling on them to be saved?

 

[MamaZ]

You just told me earlier that it was your lifestyle you presented to the world. Which is it?

Someone on this thread has the quote of Spurgeon - Calvinism is the gospel - as his tagline. Calvinism is summarized with TULIP. Do you agree with this definition of the gospel and is this what you are speaking of when you comment "it is by the preaching of the gospel that men are saved"?

Do you not know that a Christians lifestyle is also a living of the Gospel? Do you not see it is because of ones life style that one is a witness unto Christ and that the very testimony of Christ lives in those who are His.. We are to live the gospel preach the gospel each and every day.. You can preach the gospel to many a man but if you are not a living testimony unto the Lord who will believe what you say? That would be like do as I say but not as I do.. I think the word there is hypocrite.. I cannot puff myself up over any man.. I can preach the truth of the Gospel and I can life the truth of the Gospel for this is the worship God desires of those whom are His.. I have been saved by Grace.. Not from any merit of my doing..

 

[nobdysfool]

You are getting more confusing all the time. Are you now saying you are preaching to the body of Christ and calling on them to be saved?

Baptists do that every week in church....

 

[MamaZ]

Can you JDS give any man a Godly sorrow that leads to the repentance of any man?

 

[Bulstrode Whitelock]

It is not I who said TULIP is the gospel. If it is the gospel, it should be preached. Why would you not preach it to the lost? TULIP says that most men CANNOT be saved, it does not say they WILL NOT be saved. There is a vast difference.

The doctrines of Grace make no effort to determine who or how many are elect whether most, less, more or 144,000.

We do preach it to the lost because we preach it to everyone some of whom must necessarily be lost.

And no, you are exactly wrong, our doctrine says precisely that those who are lost are lost because they will not be saved.

This is new. This is the motivation of the evangelism of the unelect because the wrath of God is coming on those he created for the day of destruction? This one will need some explanation!

I fear the judgment of God. I fear God. I fear the wrath of God. To exactly the same degree that I do not know who will believe the call, I am also making my own calling and election sure.

I am not sure how much more I can say, but if this one has your attention so well, let me give you another:

The non-elect have the same duty to believe the Gospel that the elect have, even though they will not.

Who is and who is not elect has everything to do with the presentation of the gospel. There are specific terms of the gospel that would need to be clarified to the hearer just like you must clarify them to me.

Absolutely not, there is no reason to obscure the clear offer of grace with tangents about who and how many.

WHOSOEVER shall call upon the name of the Lord is not a term of limitation. This would lead the hearer to believe that salvation comes by calling upon the name of the Lord and you would either need to omit using a verse like that or explain it. Having God save a man before he called upon him and having a man call upon him for salvation is certainly different.

And none of us deny that all those who call upon His name will be saved. What we deny is that there are those who would call upon that name if they were only able. They don't because they don't want to.

What verses do you preach to them. This is my original question.

Who preaches verses? The Gospel is a message. There are a number of biblical passages that can be used within the context of such a presentation, but we are not about the business of proof-texting people into heaven.

 

[MamaZ]

You are getting more confusing all the time. Are you now saying you are preaching to the body of Christ and calling on them to be saved?

Read what was written slowly.. maybe that will help you undestand what was said. We preach the gospel to whosoever.. We do not limit preaching the Gospel to just a certain race.. This is the who so ever scripture speaks of.. To the Jew to the Greek to the Poor to the rich.. We do not do the calling or the choosing.. We just preach the gospel..

 

[JDS]

Do you not know that a Christians lifestyle is also a living of the Gospel? Do you not see it is because of ones life style that one is a witness unto Christ and that the very testimony of Christ lives in those who are His.. We are to live the gospel preach the gospel each and every day.. You can preach the gospel to many a man but if you are not a living testimony unto the Lord who will believe what you say? That would be like do as I say but not as I do.. I think the word there is hypocrite.. I cannot puff myself up over any man.. I can preach the truth of the Gospel and I can life the truth of the Gospel for this is the worship God desires of those whom are His.. I have been saved by Grace.. Not from any merit of my doing..

It seems apparent that our difinition of the gospel is different but you did not answer my question so I cannot be sure of your definition. Can you please clarify. Is TULIP the gospel as Spurgeon said?

 

[Bulstrode Whitelock]

I doubt that Spurgeon said TULIP was the Gospel.

What I believe he said was that the system of doctrine known as Calvinism was the Gospel.

JDS, you seem to be the one who has reduced the whole system to the five points.

 

[MamaZ]

It seems apparent that our difinition of the gospel is different but you did not answer my question so I cannot be sure of your definition. Can you please clarify. Is TULIP the gospel as Spurgeon said?

We preach the cross of Christ. For the gospel is Christ crucified and risen and soon coming reign.. Spurgeon was a great man of God. This tulip is what I don't know alot about because I take scripture as my guide.. I have heard what it means.. I agree with what it means.. But I preach Christ and Him crucified..The gospel is a message. Christ came and died and was risen and is coming again.. To all who have an ear and are His sheep will hear this message and WILL follow Him.. Do you believe that you have anything to do with the salvation of men?

 

[MamaZ]

It seems apparent that our difinition of the gospel is different but you did not answer my question so I cannot be sure of your definition. Can you please clarify. Is TULIP the gospel as Spurgeon said?

Why not answer the questions given to you?