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Calvinism Refuted

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JDS

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Presdestination is not a religious doctrine. It is scripture and the very nature of God. :) A correct understand of scripture is when Jesus opens up the eyes of His disciples so that they may understand the scriptures knowing that scripture does not nor will not contradict itself. The whole of Scripture is revelation of God and His Chosen Son Christ Jesus. We are the beloved of the Lord predestined to adoption. This is why we are to allow scripture to interpret scripture. All men are not going to be saved no matter how you believe all men are. This is not truth of the full counsel of the written scriptures. Men do not elect themselves to be Gods people. All men are not elected to be Gods people..


MamaZ,

Do you do any personal evangelism? Do you care about the personal destiny of your family, friends, relatives, and neighbors and are you resolved to the sad fact that your own children may not be elected and may be doomed to the Lake of Fire?
 
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drstevej

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MamaZ,

Do you do any personal evangelism? Do you care about the personal destiny of your family, friends, relatives, and neighbors and are you resolved to the sad fact that your own children may not be elected and may be doomed to the Lake of Fire?


That you would ask such a question shows you hardly understand Calvinists. We do not believe that the fact of one's "non-election" is something we can know as long as life remains. We also do not believe that the elect will respond to the gospel the first, sedond or umpteenth time the gospel is presented.

So why should we give up? I witnessed to my parents for 3 years and one day it "clicked" for them. Why? Because a sovereign God chose that time and manner to open their hearts and birth faith.

With my brother, I was staying at his house in order to attend a Campus Crusade conference in Atlanta. Josh Mc Dowell was the speaker. That night I came home late and my brother was still up. He asked, "What do you do at those meetings?"

I began to explain what Josh had spoken on and before I knew it we were discussing the gospel. A week later he wrote me about his conversion that night. Prior to that we had a number of discussions which were mostly his scientific objections to religion.

A sovereign God acts in His way in His time. And he uses us in a variety of ways. We are to faithfully scatter the seed.
 
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Robert Pate

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Presdestination is not a religious doctrine. It is scripture and the very nature of God. :) A correct understand of scripture is when Jesus opens up the eyes of His disciples so that they may understand the scriptures knowing that scripture does not nor will not contradict itself. The whole of Scripture is revelation of God and His Chosen Son Christ Jesus. We are the beloved of the Lord predestined to adoption. This is why we are to allow scripture to interpret scripture. All men are not going to be saved no matter how you believe all men are. This is not truth of the full counsel of the written scriptures. Men do not elect themselves to be Gods people. All men are not elected to be Gods people..


It is true that not all men are going to accept Christ as their savior.

What is true is that in the judgement no man will be able to accuse God of being unjust because they never had a chance to accept Christ as their savior.

God in the person of Jesus Christ has provided salvation for all.

1 John 2:2 "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours ONLY, but also for the SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD."
 
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JDS

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When on witnesses to the lost we preach Christ and Him crucified.. We are just seed planters and waters.. God is the one who causes the increase.. We not only preach the word we live the word by God who Causes us to walk in His statutes. If who we are witnessing to is one of His sheep they will hear His voice.. They will follow Him..


It is your voice they are hearing. What word do you preach? That Christ died for every man? If so, good for you. That whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved? That God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son that whosoever believeth on him might be saved? Great! That while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us? That Christ also once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust that he might bring us to God? That he had the power to walk away from the tomb? If this is the word you preach, we are on the same page because this is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believes it.

But if the word you you preach to them is TULIP, that God has a limited amount of pre-chosen and that is the extent of the gospel and there is nothing about the sacrificial work of Jesus Christ in it, then I am not for you.

Which do you preach? Are you in agreement with Spurgeon that TULIP is the gospel? What exactly do you tell the lost?
 
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drstevej

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What is true is that in the judgement no man will be able to accuse God of being unjust because they never had a chance to accept Christ as their savior.


God is just in punishing sin period. He owes no man a chance to accept Christ.
 
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MamaZ,

Do you do any personal evangelism? Do you care about the personal destiny of your family, friends, relatives, and neighbors and are you resolved to the sad fact that your own children may not be elected and may be doomed to the Lake of Fire?
I do this all the time.. Christ is more to me that evangelsim. He is my life. There is not one person in my family nor anyone I run into the does not know the Christ is the center of my life for I speak of Him all the time. I have witnesses to my children and my neighbors and will continue to do so. My Children all know Christ. Not because of me but because God is faithful.. Motivation is not from me trying to get people saved. The Motivation is that Christ is my first Love and people know this because He is always being spoken about with me. Do you not live and breathe Jesus to where there is not a person that knows you are in Love with Christ the King?
 
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&Abel

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I do this all the time.. Christ is more to me that evangelsim. He is my life. There is not one person in my family nor anyone I run into the does not know the Christ is the center of my life for I speak of Him all the time. I have witnesses to my children and my neighbors and will continue to do so. My Children all know Christ. Not because of me but because God is faithful.. Motivation is not from me trying to get people saved. The Motivation is that Christ is my first Love and people know this because He is always being spoken about with me. Do you not live and breathe Jesus to where there is not a person that knows you are in Love with Christ the King?

I know what you mean...I can't help but talk about Christ because I truly love Him and who He is

Hes so beautiful and complex and endless and I talk about him because I can't help but share what I love with others

I've always been obsessive like that, and I feel almost like Christ is the perfect match for my obsessive nature

something that is not usually considered to be good or healthy has become more than healthy with the proper focus
 
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It is true that not all men are going to accept Christ as their savior.

What is true is that in the judgement no man will be able to accuse God of being unjust because they never had a chance to accept Christ as their savior.

God in the person of Jesus Christ has provided salvation for all.

1 John 2:2 "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours ONLY, but also for the SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD."
No man can accuse God of being unjust because Justice in Gods eyes is not like justice in human eyes.. God is Just because He is the justice maker.. He is Just in all His discisions.
 
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JDS

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That you would ask such a question shows you hardly understand Calvinists. We do not believe that the fact of one's "non-election" is something we can know as long as life remains. We also do not believe that the elect will respond to the gospel the first, sedond or umpteenth time the gospel is presented.

So why should we give up? I witnessed to my parents for 3 years and one day it "clicked" for them. Why? Because a sovereign God chose that time and manner to open their hearts and birth faith.

With my brother, I was staying at his house in order to attend a Campus Crusade conference in Atlanta. Josh Mc Dowell was the speaker. That night I came home late and my brother was still up. He asked, "What do you do at those meetings?"



I began to explain what Josh had spoken on and before I knew it we were discussing the gospel. A week later he wrote me about his conversion that night. Prior to that we had a number of discussions which were mostly his scientific objections to religion.

A sovereign God acts in His way in His time. And he uses us in a variety of ways. We are to faithfully scatter the seed.

I am certainly glad for the conversion of your family but speaking of the gospel in the strictess sense of Calvinism, there was not a chance of their not finally being saved and your rejoicing in light of your faith has to be for the timing, sooner than later, than the fact they were actually elect. We now know by their conversion that they were indeed members of the elect and there was never any possibility they would finally be lost.

But, what if they were not elect? Your preaching would have been vain as far as they were concerned and why would God in his sovereignty have you to continue preaching to them? There must surely be people you know who have died lost after being witnessed to for a lifetime.
 
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JDS

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I do this all the time.. Christ is more to me that evangelsim. He is my life. There is not one person in my family nor anyone I run into the does not know the Christ is the center of my life for I speak of Him all the time. I have witnesses to my children and my neighbors and will continue to do so. My Children all know Christ. Not because of me but because God is faithful.. Motivation is not from me trying to get people saved. The Motivation is that Christ is my first Love and people know this because He is always being spoken about with me. Do you not live and breathe Jesus to where there is not a person that knows you are in Love with Christ the King?


How does your children being members of the elect make God "faithful"? Would God still be faithful if your children were not elect?
 
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&Abel

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2 Esdras

[52] because it is for you that paradise is opened, the tree of life is planted, the age to come is prepared, plenty is provided, a city is built, rest is appointed, goodness is established and wisdom perfected beforehand.
[53] The root of evil is sealed up from you, illness is banished from you, and death is hidden; hell has fled and corruption has been forgotten;
[54] sorrows have passed away, and in the end the treasure of immortality is made manifest.
[55] Therefore do not ask any more questions about the multitude of those who perish.
[56] For they also received freedom , but they despised the Most High, and were contemptuous of his law, and forsook his ways.
[57] Moreover they have even trampled upon his righteous ones,
[58] and said in their hearts that there is not God -- though knowing full well that they must die.
[59] For just as the things which I have predicted await you, so the thirst and torment which are prepared await them. For the Most High did not intend that men should be destroyed;
[60] but they themselves who were created have defiled the name of him who made them, and have been ungrateful to him who prepared life for them.
[61] Therefore my judgment is now drawing near;
[62] I have not shown this to all men, but only to you and a few like you." Then I answered and said,
[63] "Behold, O Lord, thou hast now shown me a multitude of the signs which thou wilt do in the last times, but thou hast not shown me when thou wilt do them." 9

[1] He answered me and said, "Measure carefully in your mind, and when you see that a certain part of the predicted signs are past,
[2] then you will know that it is the very time when the Most High is about to visit the world which he has made.
[3] So when there shall appear in the world earthquakes, tumult of peoples, intrigues of nations, wavering of leaders, confusion of princes,
[4] then you will know that it was of these that the Most High spoke from the days that were of old, from the beginning.
[5] For just as with everything that has occurred in the world, the beginning is evident, and the end manifest;
[6] so also are the times of the Most High: the beginnings are manifest in wonders and mighty works, and the end in requital and in signs.
[7] And it shall be that every one who will be saved and will be able to escape on account of his works, or on account of the faith by which he has believed,
[8] will survive the dangers that have been predicted, and will see my salvation in my land and within my borders, which I have sanctified for myself from the beginning.
[9] Then those who have now abused my ways shall be amazed, and those who have rejected them with contempt shall dwell in torments.
[10] For as many as did not acknowledge me in their lifetime, although they received my benefits,
[11] and as many as scorned my law while they still had freedom, and did not understand but despised it while an opportunity of repentance was still open to them,
[12] these must in torment acknowledge it after death.
[13] Therefore, do not continue to be curious as to how the ungodly will be punished; but inquire how the righteous will be saved, those to whom the age belongs and for whose sake the age was made."
 
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nobdysfool

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JDS said:
But, what if they were not elect? Your preaching would have been vain as far as they were concerned and why would God in his sovereignty have you to continue preaching to them? There must surely be people you know who have died lost after being witnessed to for a lifetime.

And would that be the fault of a Calvinist theology? The underlying assumption here is that the Calvinist won't try hard enough, witness fervently enough, be persuasive enough to bring people to Christ. That is a false assumption.

People coming to Christ does not rely on our persuasiveness, our eloquence, our fervor in witnessing, or anything of our efforts. We cannot convert one single person. I really have a problem with the Baptist mindset of "notches on the belt", counting how many one has "won to Christ" and measuring spirituality (and theology) by such means. That is nothing but religious pride, dressed up in Sunday clothes.

You've got this idea that Calvinists are trying to determine who is Elect, and only witness to them. That is wrong, it is insulting, and only serves to highlight the ignorance you still insist on operating under regarding Calvinism. Just like you, we witness to those who we have opportunity to witness to, and trust God to do His work, and to give us opportunities to give reason for the hope which lies within us. We witness as the Spirit leads, and as He creates opportunities for us to be a witness for Him.

I like the quote,"Preach the Gospel; If necessary, use words". Our entire lives should be a witness to Christ, and the Power of His Gospel. Sometimes, we have much more impact on people by what we do, than by what we say.
 
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&Abel

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if you are spreading a Calvinist "gospel" are you really doing Christ any service?

"Congratulations you've already won eternal life!"

/me opens envelope

"If you were selected from the roulette wheel of destiny before the creation of the world"

/me grows sad "theres no way this dirty sinner is an elect"
 
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How does your children being members of the elect make God "faithful"? Would God still be faithful if your children were not elect?
God is very faithful to His word. We can live by the very promises of God. For we walk not by sight but by faith..I have realatives that do not know Christ.. Is God still faithful.. You bet He is..
 
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My love for Christ is not what He will do for me.. My love of Christ is because of Who He is and the fact that He first loved me.. I have tasted this wonderful love of God.. have you not read where we are to Love Christ even more than Mother Father ect? So my love For Christ is not based on His preformance but because of Who He is and what He has done for me..
 
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if you are spreading a Calvinist "gospel" are you really doing Christ any service?

"Congratulations you've already won eternal life!"

/me opens envelope

"If you were selected from the roulette wheel of destiny before the creation of the world"

/me grows sad "theres no way this dirty sinner is an elect"
When we preach Christ we preach Him crucified and Risen..
 
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JDS

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And would that be the fault of a Calvinist theology? The underlying assumption here is that the Calvinist won't try hard enough, witness fervently enough, be persuasive enough to bring people to Christ. That is a false assumption.

People coming to Christ does not rely on our persuasiveness, our eloquence, our fervor in witnessing, or anything of our efforts. We cannot convert one single person. I really have a problem with the Baptist mindset of "notches on the belt", counting how many one has "won to Christ" and measuring spirituality (and theology) by such means. That is nothing but religious pride, dressed up in Sunday clothes.

You've got this idea that Calvinists are trying to determine who is Elect, and only witness to them. That is wrong, it is insulting, and only serves to highlight the ignorance you still insist on operating under regarding Calvinism. Just like you, we witness to those who we have opportunity to witness to, and trust God to do His work, and to give us opportunities to give reason for the hope which lies within us. We witness as the Spirit leads, and as He creates opportunities for us to be a witness for Him.

I like the quote,"Preach the Gospel; If necessary, use words". Our entire lives should be a witness to Christ, and the Power of His Gospel. Sometimes, we have much more impact on people by what we do, than by what we say.


I think you have a problem.

Preach the gospel to every creatrue. "GO" and preach the gospel to every creature. The bible knows nothing about lifestyle evangelism. Faith cometh by hearing. How can they hear without a preacher. Being born again by the word of God.

I agree that preaching must be backed up by a consecrated life to be effective.
 
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&Abel

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My love for Christ is not what He will do for me.. My love of Christ is because of Who He is and the fact that He first loved me.. I have tasted this wonderful love of God.. have you not read where we are to Love Christ even more than Mother Father ect? So my love For Christ is not based on His preformance but because of Who He is and what He has done for me..

well if He first loved you then He has done something for you hasn't He

if He made you to be elect then of course your love for Him is based on what He did for you

no matter how pure and true that love is...if you truly believe you were pre-programed to love Him then that love means nothing and is entirely about what He did for you
 
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