Calvinism Refuted

[archierieus]

because they know it's true

Scripture is the test. So far, several Scriptures which have been relied on by Calvinists on some of these threads have been shown by textual and grammatical evidence to not support Calvinism. For example:

Romans 8
Romans 9
John 10
John 12
Ephesians 1
1 Peter 1

If you would like to go through a point by point refutation of the Calvinist position on each of these Scriptures, I would be glad to.

And other Scriptures quite plainly on their face teach the opposite of Calvinism, such as:

John 1
John 3
2 Peter 3
Pauline epistles

 

[Hammster]

No assumptions - John the Baptist is one that is counted with those "but as many as received Him God gave to them the right to be children of God.

You are missing the point. We are talking about words and if they always mean what it appears that they mean, ie. world always meaning each and every person. I agree that the Word means Jesus and that the light is Jesus. But if you had never seen a bible or heard of Christianity and picked up John, would you understand that? Highly unlikely.

This isn't an argument, per se, defending that world DOESN'T meandering world. I was just talking about your position that because it said world it HAS to mean world in the sense you described.

 

[Hammster]

Benefactor,



Do you believe that many, if not most people on earth at any given time are predistined by God to go to the Lake of Fire, a real place without water, to endure unimaginable pain, suffering, loneliness, darkness that can be felt and be separated from God for all eternity, is Good News or glad tidings?



If you say yes, in what sense is the shed blood of Jesus Christ and the message of the preacher to them that Jesus Christ died, according to the scripture, and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day, according to the scriptures, 1 Cor 15:1-4, the scriptural definition of the gospel, in what sense is it good news? Why would God want this preached to every creature on the earth and call it good news to them if they were created by God for the express purpose of being sent to hell?



I am only wanting to know how this is good news/glad tidings.



Limited atonement is the "L" in TULIP. How can the events of the cross and the person of Jesus Christ and his shed blood and his resurrection be good news to those who are not atoned for.



I think this is a legitimate question and I am asking you because I have asked this before and no one has given a very good answer. I know this is not your position but I think you probably believe we are all teaching the orthodox Christian faith with slight disagreements on non essential points. If I get a good answer I will believe it. I am here to learn.



Forgive me in advance if I am wrong about this.

I know this isn't directed to me, but let me ask this question and see if I can help.

Were the victories in WWII good news? Was David's triumph over Goliath good news? Was the Ark good news?

 

[Hammster]

So then, are you suggesting that a non-Calvinist believer in Jesus, such as an Arminian or otherwise, is the 'natural man' described in this verse?

The only reason I am responding to this is because he posted the verse before I could. So I don't want to assume hospital reason.

But my answer is No. I certainly am no suggesting, implying, hinting, etc. that anyone who is a non-Calvinist believer is not saved.

 

[Hammster]

So is Islam. Different religions have their own appeals. And without a doubt, Calvinism has an appeal--the belief in assurance of salvation for those who are the 'elect,' for example. Islam also has an appeal, as do others.



Of course, none of that makes a particular religion 'true' when measured against the Bible. I think the earlier comment about the demise of Calvinism was within the context of an examination of the beliefs in the light of Scripture as it reads. This thread is 'Calvinism Refuted,' and that has been in process in the course of this thread. As happened quite recently on another discussion thread, initially it was asserted that Calvinism is based on Scripture, 'Sola Scriptura.' When that was shown not to be the case, various rationales and philosophical positions were put forward in support of the doctrine. When those were successfully challenged, resort was had to the 'secret knowledge' idea, which only initiates could possess, the rest of us blokes not being able to comprehend it.



But the standard here is Sola Scriptura, and by that standard the belief system hasn't fared well so far. Nevertheless, the appeal of the belief is so powerful that its adherents will cling to it in the face of evidence, continuing to come up with explanations and exceptions more and more fanciful. The work of the faithful student of Scripture is to confront and expose such fanciful ideas and point people to the pure Word of God instead.

Where have you seen an THIS thread where any Calvinist has put forward the position that we use a 'secret society' type of evangelism? Your first statement would only make sense in light of that.

As to your second statement, so far, in this thread, the Reformed view has held up quite nicely, unless by Solar Scriptura you mean pulling verses out of context to get them to mean what you want them to mean. Hmmm. Is that what you mean by Solar Scriptura? Single verses? Ah, it all makes sense now.

Actually, it HAS been shown time and time again that most of the verses that have been used to refute Calvinism have done no such thing if taken in context. As for what happened in the other thread, I can't speak for them, and to bring their conclusions in here makes no sense.

As for your last statement, any argument where you can take the subject and replace it with another isn't really a good argument (and I am sure we make them too). I could easily reverse that on you, and it would makeperfect sense from my viewpoint.

 

[Hammster]

Scripture is the test. So far, several Scriptures which have been relied on by Calvinists on some of these threads have been shown by textual and grammatical evidence to not support Calvinism. For example:



Romans 8

Romans 9

John 10

John 12

Ephesians 1

1 Peter 1



If you would like to go through a point by point refutation of the Calvinist position on each of these Scriptures, I would be glad to.



And other Scriptures quite plainly on their face teach the opposite of Calvinism, such as:



John 1

John 3

2 Peter 3

Pauline epistles

Well, you at least have to exclude 2 Peter 3 off of your list. I asked you about that and you said you didn't have an answer. As for the test, please show us where we are wrong.

 

[Benefactor]

You are missing the point. We are talking about words and if they always mean what it appears that they mean, ie. world always meaning each and every person. I agree that the Word means Jesus and that the light is Jesus. But if you had never seen a bible or heard of Christianity and picked up John, would you understand that? Highly unlikely.

This isn't an argument, per se, defending that world DOESN'T meandering world. I was just talking about your position that because it said world it HAS to mean world in the sense you described.

Perhaps what we need to do is, especially with verses, 11 and 12, would be to take one word at a time and state how we understand it. If we can restrict our reference to the verses in the present context without any reference to related passages outside then I think we may be able to determine their meaning. We understand that a word that is not the actual is a metaphor, so for us, we need to determine the actual of the metaphor.

Unlike similes that use the words “as” or “like” to make a comparison, metaphors state that something is something else.

Metaphors; http://www.rhlschool.com/eng3n26.htm; 3-19-09

 

[Hammster]

Perhaps what we need to do is, especially with verses, 11 and 12, would be to take one word at a time and state how we understand it. If we can restrict our reference to the verses in the present context without any reference to related passages outside then I think we may be able to determine their meaning. We understand that a word that is not the actual is a metaphor, so for us, we need to determine the actual of the metaphor.







Metaphors; http://www.rhlschool.com/eng3n26.htm; 3-19-09

We could do that but I AM not sure what that would accomplish. There is nothing in those verses that say why His own rejected Him, or why any believed.

 

[JDS]

I know this isn't directed to me, but let me ask this question and see if I can help.

Were the victories in WWII good news? Was David's triumph over Goliath good news? Was the Ark good news?

It wasn't good news to every creature on the earth and the message couldn't save anyone.

I assume you do personal evangelism and I would be interested to know what you tell those who give you a few minutes of their time to tell them the good news. Do you tell them they can be saved? What verses would you show someone who is lost to assure them they can be saved?

 

[Hammster]

It wasn't good news to every creature on the earth and the message couldn't save anyone.



I assume you do personal evangelism and I would be interested to know what you tell those who give you a few minutes of their time to tell them the good news. Do you tell them they can be saved? What verses would you show someone who is lost to assure them they can be saved?

How about John 3:16.
"

 

[JDS]

How about John 3:16.
"

Is that a question?

Seriously, I am interested how you present Jesus Christ to a lost person in your personal evangelism. You must have verses that will assure him he can be saved. I am just curious what they are and what you tell him.

 

[cygnusx1]

Scripture is the test. So far, several Scriptures which have been relied on by Calvinists on some of these threads have been shown by textual and grammatical evidence to not support Calvinism. For example:

Romans 8
Romans 9
John 10
John 12
Ephesians 1
1 Peter 1

If you would like to go through a point by point refutation of the Calvinist position on each of these Scriptures, I would be glad to.

And other Scriptures quite plainly on their face teach the opposite of Calvinism, such as:

John 1
John 3
2 Peter 3
Pauline epistles

Instead of proof texting , may I suggest you take note of your own advice , especially concerning "arminian flavored" texts , what advice ?

what makes me laugh is that those who pen this type of rhetoric are the first to uphold Arminian teaching denying there own standards!

words such as "all" , "world" "whole world" etc ... "Do you understand that? Or are you determined to build your case on one or two English words which you have assigned your own meaning to? IOW forget about the data, the starting point is your desired belief, look for words here and there which you think support that belief, and go for it? " LOL!!!

 

[Hammster]

Is that a question?



Seriously, I am interested how you present Jesus Christ to a lost person in your personal evangelism. You must have verses that will assure him he can be saved. I am just curious what they are and what you tell him.

First, you have to get them lost, since man may think he is a sinner, he may not understand how sinful he is. Romans 1-3 is a good place, if needed. It demonstrates the total depravity of man.

If they are convinced at that point, it is possible that the Holy Spirit is working in them. If they want to know what to do, REPENT. Lots of places to go for that.

For assurance, John 3:16. They, if it is a true conversion (which I won't know) are the Whosoever mentioned in the verse.

Like I said last time you asked me; if they are the elect, they will believe (maybe not when I witness, but later they will). If they aren't, they won't. The same sun that hardens the soil melts the ice.

 

[Hammster]

Instead of proof texting , may I suggest you take note of your own advice , especially concerning "arminian flavored" texts , what advice ?



what makes me laugh is that those who pen this type of rhetoric are the first to uphold Arminian teaching denying there own standards!



words such as "all" , "world" "whole world" etc ... "Do you understand that? Or are you determined to build your case on one or two English words which you have assigned your own meaning to? IOW forget about the data, the starting point is your desired belief, look for words here and there which you think support that belief, and go for it? " LOL!!!

C'mon bro. Don't you want to learn so that you may repent of your eevil ways?

 

[JDS]

Hammster, you must tell the lost something. What do you tell them?

I personally cannot imagine how difficult it would be to witness to lost people if I believed there was a very high liklihood that I was speaking to one who was not elect and has no chance of eternal life. What would I say to the person? You will know if you are elect if God gives you ability to believe? Or, you will have eternal life if God regenerates you and reveals to you that you can be saved. Otherwise, tough luck.

I am not trying to be disrespectful but one can see how Calvinism works much better in the classroom and on debate forums than in a practicle application. This could be the reason that one does not see many of the reformed practicing personal work.

Edit:

I just noticed you posted an answer while I was posting this and so, thank you.

Do you ever use the whosoever will verses? Is there hope for sinners?

 

[Hammster]

Hammster, you must tell the lost something. What do you tell them?



I personally cannot imagine how difficult it would be to witness to lost people if I believed there was a very high liklihood that I was speaking to one who was not elect and has no chance of eternal life. What would I say to the person? You will know if you are elect if God gives you ability to believe? Or, you will have eternal life if God regenerates you and reveals to you that you can be saved. Otherwise, tough luck.



I am not trying to be disrespectful but one can see how Calvinism works much better in the classroom and on debate forums than in a practicle application. This could be the reason that one does not see many of the reformed practicing personal work.



Edit:



I just noticed you posted an answer while I was posting this and so, thank you.



Do you ever use the whosoever will verses? Is there hope for sinners?

lol. I know how the overlap happens sometimes.

I don't know why I wouldn't use the whosoever verses. There is no conflict with Calvinism. There is nothing about man's ability to choose Christ in John 3:16.

 

[JDS]

lol. I know how the overlap happens sometimes.

I don't know why I wouldn't use the whosoever verses. There is no conflict with Calvinism. There is nothing about man's ability to choose Christ in John 3:16.

I was more interested in the verses you do use!

 

[MamaZ]

A religious doctrine is composed of building blocks or components. Those building blocks can include Scriptures, beliefs and understandings. Accuracy in erecting the doctrinal edifice is critically important. If the building blocks are faulty, then the entire edifice is faulty. In fact, if a doctrine is based upon even one significant error, the entire doctrine is compromised. Thus the importance of accuracy. It starts with a correct understanding of Scripture, which in turn necessitates an accurate understanding of the words of Scripture. Context cannot violate the text. Doctrine cannot violate Scripture.

Presdestination is not a religious doctrine. It is scripture and the very nature of God. A correct understand of scripture is when Jesus opens up the eyes of His disciples so that they may understand the scriptures knowing that scripture does not nor will not contradict itself. The whole of Scripture is revelation of God and His Chosen Son Christ Jesus. We are the beloved of the Lord predestined to adoption. This is why we are to allow scripture to interpret scripture. All men are not going to be saved no matter how you believe all men are. This is not truth of the full counsel of the written scriptures. Men do not elect themselves to be Gods people. All men are not elected to be Gods people..

 

[JDS]

Hammster,

Does your view of elect only , and few at that, put a damper on your personal efforts to get people saved from the Lake of Fire.? Does it motivate you?

 

[MamaZ]

Hammster, you must tell the lost something. What do you tell them?

I personally cannot imagine how difficult it would be to witness to lost people if I believed there was a very high liklihood that I was speaking to one who was not elect and has no chance of eternal life. What would I say to the person? You will know if you are elect if God gives you ability to believe? Or, you will have eternal life if God regenerates you and reveals to you that you can be saved. Otherwise, tough luck.

I am not trying to be disrespectful but one can see how Calvinism works much better in the classroom and on debate forums than in a practicle application. This could be the reason that one does not see many of the reformed practicing personal work.

Edit:

I just noticed you posted an answer while I was posting this and so, thank you.

Do you ever use the whosoever will verses? Is there hope for sinners?

When on witnesses to the lost we preach Christ and Him crucified.. We are just seed planters and waters.. God is the one who causes the increase.. We not only preach the word we live the word by God who Causes us to walk in His statutes. If who we are witnessing to is one of His sheep they will hear His voice.. They will follow Him..