Calvinism Refuted

[Hammster]

For all of us concerning Israel, in the OT, here is a question we all need to answer before we move on;



Would everyone agree to answer this one question at this time concerning Israel in the OT - regardless of your theology just simply answer the question. Here it is:



Do you view Israel in the OT as being made up of Elect Jews (saved Jews) and non-Elect Jews (lost Jews)?



Yes or No

Yes (I'll play along)

 

[Hammster]

For all of us concerning Israel, in the OT, here is a question we all need to answer before we move on;



Would everyone agree to answer this one question at this time concerning Israel in the OT - regardless of your theology just simply answer the question. Here it is:



Do you view Israel in the OT as being made up of Elect Jews (saved Jews) and non-Elect Jews (lost Jews)?



Yes or No

Using our definitions, yes.

 

[JDS]

So, then, the propitiation we discussed earlier isn't really fo ALL men. Just the pre-Christ Jews and everyone since then. So it is, then, a limited atonement.

You see, no matter how hard you try to get around it, atonement is limited, either in scope or effect. Your way needs all sorts of loopholes to make it work. A man has to hear the gospel and believe in order to be saved. And you say that propitiation is for all men. Those in your camp say that God looked down the corridor of time and saw those who would accept Him and those who wouldn't. But you can't account for the old dude living in China who kicks over the day after the resurrection. Is he just one who slipped through the cracks?

It is much more biblical to say that the atonement is limited in scope. In other words, Jesus died for those He would save. God called those whom Christ died for. And He didn't lose a single one. And that is what Hebrews 9 is about. True, it was written to Jews. It showed them how Christ is the fulfillment of the law. It shows how believing Jews are completed Jews. But the Jew is saved the exact same way, with the same blood, and by the same High Priest as the Gentile.

Ro 3:25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Hammster, do you understand the language concept of tenses. Read the above verse and see if you can grasp it. God set him forth after 4000 years of human history had already passed. The fact that he was a propitiation for the sins that are past declares his (God's) righteousness in forgiving their sins. You will look high and low for a limitation on that propitiation because that is not addressed. It was because of the blood of Christ that God was still righteous in forgiving those before he died, the forebearance of God and he would have justified any and all who would have simply believed his revelation to them. This is what he said he did!

There is a constant in all of this. It is the faith of men. This is who is justified because God is propitiated by the redemption of Christ. He would have justified every man if every man would have believed him. Today, since the cross, the requirment of faith is much more pointed. We must believe the gospel of Jesus Christ and all who believe it is justified by God and redeemed by Christ. The response of man in belief or unbelief, however, does not limited the fact that God has been propitiated by the blood of Christ for all men at all times. That is the reason we preach the gospel to all men. It is because God will save every man who will believe the gospel of Jesus Christ. Christ died for every man!

20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

If the blood of Jesus Christ did not propitiate God for all men, it did not propitiate him for any man!

 

[Robert Pate]

Ro 3:25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Hammster, do you understand the language concept of tenses. Read the above verse and see if you can grasp it. God set him forth after 4000 years of human history had already passed. The fact that he was a propitiation for the sins that are past declares his (God's) righteousness in forgiving their sins. You will look high and low for a limitation on that propitiation because that is not addressed. It was because of the blood of Christ that God was still righteous in forgiving those before he died, the forebearance of God and he would have justified any and all who would have simply believed his revelation to them. This is what he said he did!

There is a constant in all of this. It is the faith of men. This is who is justified because God is propitiated by the redemption of Christ. He would have justified every man if every man would have believed him. Today, since the cross, the requirment of faith is much more pointed. We must believe the gospel of Jesus Christ and all who believe it is justified by God and redeemed by Christ. The response of man in belief or unbelief, however, does not limited the fact that God has been propitiated by the blood of Christ for all men at all times. That is the reason we preach the gospel to all men. It is because God will save every man who will believe the gospel of Jesus Christ. Christ died for every man!

20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

If the blood of Jesus Christ did not propitiate God for all men, it did not propitiate him for any man!

Good Post! I agree,

Here is a scripture that says salvation is by faith through grace to all who believe.

Romans 4:16, "Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure TO ALL THE SEED; not to that only which is of the law, (the Jews) but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of US ALL."

 

[Benefactor]

So, then, the propitiation we discussed earlier isn't really fo ALL men. Just the pre-Christ Jews and everyone since then. So it is, then, a limited atonement.

You see, no matter how hard you try to get around it, atonement is limited, either in scope or effect. Your way needs all sorts of loopholes to make it work. A man has to hear the gospel and believe in order to be saved. And you say that propitiation is for all men. Those in your camp say that God looked down the corridor of time and saw those who would accept Him and those who wouldn't.

But you can't account for the old dude living in China who kicks over the day after the resurrection. Is he just one who slipped through the cracks?[/QUOTE]

It is much more biblical to say that the atonement is limited in scope. In other words, Jesus died for those He would save. God called those whom Christ died for. And He didn't lose a single one. And that is what Hebrews 9 is about. True, it was written to Jews. It showed them how Christ is the fulfillment of the law. It shows how believing Jews are completed Jews. But the Jew is saved the exact same way, with the same blood, and by the same High Priest as the Gentile.

.


JDS, I am full of Caffeine this morning and a little wired. So, indulge me for a moment. I love humor and Hammester is able to role with the punches, as some, are not bless with that gift, as he is.

Now, for those that are actually, as it appears falling through the cracks. I doubt that from all side these real and important questions are perplexing and deserve a firm look. These real issues play a very large role in the outcome of ones theology in some cases.

First, regardless of our model of salvation I think we can all agree that God knows the exact number of the elect and knew this from His Eternal Now reference by us as the past prior to creation.

That being the case where to from here?

A man falls through the crack, a person never hears the Gospel in never, never land and so on.

1. One model sees God as selecting the ones to be save at different time and places in the history of the world. These will beyond a shadow of a doubt be given the opportunity to hear the Truth of their time (I call it dispensations but amillennialism sees it then and now). So the problem is solved under this model

2. The other model sees God as selecting the ones to be saved on the basis of foreknowledge that understands God electing the ones that willfully respond to the Truth of their time to make it simple. One aspect remains to make this model work. It is not enough to see one believe period. In seeing on believe involves the Absolute knowledge of God to know both real and all possibilities. If he turns right what them but if he turn left that too. Because God can and does know both and He too knows the ultimate end results. As such God knows that before creation if a person would believe and those who will not believe. Now I speak for myself and not necessarily for any one else. In that God knows this He then provides the means and avenues to get the Truth to those whom He knows will believe. This solves the issue for me and perhaps for many others who have not articulated it.

Now before anyone jumps up and down as the winner don’t go so fast, slow down. One thing remains that is true for both sides and it is in my regard the real issue, not diminishing the convection of each position.

Both sides, with few exceptions, agree that under both models the Gospel is commanded to be preached so that the Elect regardless of model can be saved.

So the dilemma of the one falling through the cracks is not just a problem for none Calvinist it is for Calvinist too in this regard, the regard that all who are apparently falling through the cracks are either lost or God has failed to get the gospel to the Elect.

I hope that made sense: In both models the Elect must hear to be saved and if the one falling through the crack just after the death burial and resurrection of Christ is elect then both Calvinism and my view and Arminianism fail. However, if and because of the preaching of the Truth regardless of time and place is of necessity, then both models require God’s be just in getting the message to the Elect, again regardless of view, model.

This CAT is in deep thought about this subject. He or is it a She, can't make up "ITS" mind which way to believe. Now, regardless the Elect are always going to be Elect, Saved, or Born from Above, the whole nine yards. The how is the difference not the result.

 

[Hammster]

Ro 3:25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;



Hammster, do you understand the language concept of tenses. Read the above verse and see if you can grasp it. God set him forth after 4000 years of human history had already passed. The fact that he was a propitiation for the sins that are past declares his (God's) righteousness in forgiving their sins. You will look high and low for a limitation on that propitiation because that is not addressed. It was because of the blood of Christ that God was still righteous in forgiving those before he died, the forebearance of God and he would have justified any and all who would have simply believed his revelation to them. This is what he said he did!



There is a constant in all of this. It is the faith of men. This is who is justified because God is propitiated by the redemption of Christ. He would have justified every man if every man would have believed him. Today, since the cross, the requirment of faith is much more pointed. We must believe the gospel of Jesus Christ and all who believe it is justified by God and redeemed by Christ. The response of man in belief or unbelief, however, does not limited the fact that God has been propitiated by the blood of Christ for all men at all times. That is the reason we preach the gospel to all men. It is because God will save every man who will believe the gospel of Jesus Christ. Christ died for every man!



20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.



If the blood of Jesus Christ did not propitiate God for all men, it did not propitiate him for any man!

So the only people the cross saved were the believing Jews before Christ died. For the rest of us, it just made us saveable. So now it is Christ PLUS us, since He won't save us without our permission. And since everyone must have the same faith to believe, and that given by the same grace, the only difference between those in heaven and those in hell is the choice they make.

And the record of debt isn't cancelled, it is just able to be cancelled if we just believe.

 

[cygnusx1]

Neither are those who are not saved!

of course not , neither are they free , they are slaves.

 

[Hammster]

So, then, the propitiation we discussed earlier isn't really fo ALL men. Just the pre-Christ Jews and everyone since then. So it is, then, a limited atonement.



You see, no matter how hard you try to get around it, atonement is limited, either in scope or effect. Your way needs all sorts of loopholes to make it work. A man has to hear the gospel and believe in order to be saved. And you say that propitiation is for all men. Those in your camp say that God looked down the corridor of time and saw those who would accept Him and those who wouldn't. .





JDS, I am full of Caffeine this morning and a little wired. So, indulge me for a moment. I love humor and Hammester is able to role with the punches, as some, are not bless with that gift, as he is.



Now, for those that are actually, as it appears falling through the cracks. I doubt that from all side these real and important questions are perplexing and deserve a firm look. These real issues play a very large role in the outcome of ones theology in some cases.



First, regardless of our model of salvation I think we can all agree that God knows the exact number of the elect and knew this from His Eternal Now reference by us as the past prior to creation.



That being the case where to from here?



A man falls through the crack, a person never hears the Gospel in never, never land and so on.



1. One model sees God as selecting the ones to be save at different time and places in the history of the world. These will beyond a shadow of a doubt be given the opportunity to hear the Truth of their time (I call it dispensations but amillennialism sees it then and now). So the problem is solved under this model



2. The other model sees God as selecting the ones to be saved on the basis of foreknowledge that understands God electing the ones that willfully respond to the Truth of their time to make it simple. One aspect remains to make this model work. It is not enough to see one believe period. In seeing on believe involves the Absolute knowledge of God to know both real and all possibilities. If he turns right what them but if he turn left that too. Because God can and does know both and He too knows the ultimate end results. As such God knows that before creation if a person would believe and those who will not believe. Now I speak for myself and not necessarily for any one else. In that God knows this He then provides the means and avenues to get the Truth to those whom He knows will believe. This solves the issue for me and perhaps for many others who have not articulated it.



Now before anyone jumps up and down as the winner don’t go so fast, slow down. One thing remains that is true for both sides and it is in my regard the real issue, not diminishing the convection of each position.



Both sides, with few exceptions, agree that under both models the Gospel is commanded to be preached so that the Elect regardless of model can be saved.



So the dilemma of the one falling through the cracks is not just a problem for none Calvinist it is for Calvinist too in this regard, the regard that all who are apparently falling through the cracks are either lost or God has failed to get the gospel to the Elect.



I hope that made sense: In both models the Elect must hear to be saved and if the one falling through the crack just after the death burial and resurrection of Christ is elect then both Calvinism and my view and Arminianism fail. However, if and because of the preaching of the Truth regardless of time and place is of necessity, then both models require God’s be just in getting the message to the Elect, again regardless of view, model.



This CAT is in deep thought about this subject. He or is it a She, can't make up "ITS" mind which way to believe. Now, regardless the Elect are always going to be Elect, Saved, or Born from Above, the whole nine yards. The how is the difference not the result.

That was beautiful. I laughed, I cried.

It was wrong, but it was beautiful.

Calvinism doesn't have to account for the elect not being witnessed to because that is an impossibility.

So we come back to propitiation, and at some point we will get to expiation. If God, in His eternal now, knows who will accept this "offer", then why did Christ have to take the wrath for those whom He could not save?

 

[cygnusx1]

If the blood of Jesus Christ did not propitiate God for all men, it did not propitiate him for any man!

all men is not every man .... read the prophecy of Joel

 

[Benefactor]

1 John 2
1. My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2. And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[cygnusx1]

1 John 2
1. My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2. And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

hey bro , consider sticking this in your sig , then we won't have to go around in these circles ;

GL writes;

"Concerning the possible usage of kosmos to mean all mankind without exception in the redemptive context of I John 2:2, let the reader observe that kosmos is used differently at least 21 out of 23 times elsewhere in the epistle. As a matter of fact, the identical term "whole world" is used in I John 5:19 where it cannot possibly mean all mankind absolutely. John writes: "we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness (in the wicked one)." Can this be true of the believer who is in Christ? Let the reader judge."

 

[Benefactor]

That was beautiful. I laughed, I cried.

It was wrong, but it was beautiful.

Calvinism doesn't have to account for the elect not being witnessed to because that is an impossibility.

Well I need to learn a thing or two: Let us start with a this statement, Sinner man is picked by God, no say in it at all. God tells the existing elect to preach the good news so that the elect who have not heard and believed will hear and believe.

Do I get an A on that statement?

So we come back to propitiation, and at some point we will get to expiation. If God, in His eternal now, knows who will accept this "offer", then why did Christ have to take the wrath for those whom He could not save?

.

 

[cygnusx1]

BTW , POST 411

sure you can mess with it , but then you will fall under the same thing that anti-Calvinists say of God , you are being ;
absolute
arrogant
authoritarian
autocratic
bigoted
bossy
capricious
captious
chance
despotic
determinate
dictatorial

OR IN A WORD , arbitrary

 

[Hammster]

Hey, Benefactor, you need to quit mingling your statements in with my quotes so that I can quote you back. I have no copy/paste on my cell phone.

So I will give you an A-.

 

[Robert Pate]

BTW , POST 411

sure you can mess with it , but then you will fall under the same thing that anti-Calvinists say of God , you are being ;
absolute
arrogant
authoritarian
autocratic
bigoted
bossy
capricious
captious
chance
despotic
determinate
dictatorial

OR IN A WORD , arbitrary

I was looking a Romans 4 the other day and this scripture jumped out at me.

Romans 4:16, "Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the PROMISE might be sure to ALL THE SEED; not to that only which is of the law (the Jews) but to that also is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of US ALL."

What say you to this?

 

[Benefactor]

That was beautiful. I laughed, I cried.

It was wrong, but it was beautiful.

Calvinism doesn't have to account for the elect not being witnessed to because that is an impossibility.

So we come back to propitiation, and at some point we will get to expiation. If God, in His eternal now, knows who will accept this "offer", then why did Christ have to take the wrath for those whom He could not save?

You see it’s a matter of perspective, profound, yep I would say so.

Perspective one picks and lets all other fly by the seat of their depravity

Perspective two picks from those who by the seat of their depravity once they hear the gospel believe.

So, what now? Why did Christ die for those He foreknew would not believe? Because, "Shut up Johnny, don't ask any more questions I know best" Just take my word for it.

No I am afraid not, but you were licking your chops for a moment.

Because, regardless of God's absolute knowledge his Justice, Mercy and Holiness is the reason the offer must be to all. In the model that man must accept the offer of Grace it must be offered to all regardless of God's absolute knowledge. Equally, apart of God's eternal now are his eternal holiness, mercy and justice. To be just, merciful and remain holy the same offer is necessary for all regardless of what they do with it. That is the beauty of the model I hold to. It completes the package and permits God to remain Just, Merciful, Holy, Loving, The complete package. God is still God.

 

[Hammster]

You see it’s a matter of perspective, profound, yep I would say so.



Perspective one picks and lets all other fly by the seat of their depravity



Perspective two picks from those who by the seat of their depravity once they hear the gospel believe.



So, what now? Why did Christ die for those He foreknew would not believe? Because, "Shut up Johnny, don't ask any more questions I know best" Just take my word for it.



No I am afraid not, but you were licking your chops for a moment.



Because, regardless of God's absolute knowledge his Justice, Mercy and Holiness is the reason the offer must be to all. In the model that man must accept the offer of Grace it must be offered to all regardless of God's absolute knowledge. Equally, apart of God's eternal now are his eternal holiness, mercy and justice. To be just, merciful and remain holy the same offer is necessary for all regardless of what they do with it. That is the beauty of the model I hold to. It completes the package and permits God to remain Just, Merciful, Holy, Loving, The complete package. God is still God.

Foe clarification then, on what basis does God condemn man to hell? Is it for sin, or just the wrong decision?

 

[nobdysfool]

Foe clarification then, on what basis does God condemn man to hell? Is it for sin, or just the wrong decision?

JOHN OWEN WRITES:
The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for, either:



All the sins of all men. why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins? You answer, "Because of unbelief." I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!"

Some of the sins of all men. all men have some sins to answer for, and so, none are saved.

All the sins of some men, in their stead suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the whole world, THIS IS THE BIBLICAL POSITION…

 

[JDS]

So the only people the cross saved were the believing Jews before Christ died. For the rest of us, it just made us saveable. So now it is Christ PLUS us, since He won't save us without our permission. And since everyone must have the same faith to believe, and that given by the same grace, the only difference between those in heaven and those in hell is the choice they make.

And the record of debt isn't cancelled, it is just able to be cancelled if we just believe.

You are applying Calvinist dogma to the scriptures and you refuse to allow them to correct you. The scriptures are profitable for "correction".

When everything is said and done and the eternal order is a reality, every person who enters it will have made a personal chioice to be there. God is going to reign in eternity but he is not going to reign over a single rebel. His kingdom is not built by conqueing his enemies, it is by convincing them and persuading them of his goodness, mercy, and grace, and all other attributes that he possess. All of them will have been washed in the blood of the Lamb and will be sinless in the eyes of God.

The substitution of biblical terms is the area where calvinism is most seductive.God does not save us by our permission, he saves us by our faith. Salvation is not an entitlement, it is the gift of God. It is not infused upon the unwitting and sleepy, it is received as a gift by the believer. It is these things because of the one time sacrifice of Jesus Christ for all men everywhere.

The gospel is good news, glad tidings to every creature. Why? Because it has the ability to save every creature.

 

[Hammster]

You are applying Calvinist dogma to the scriptures and you refuse to allow them to correct you. The scriptures are profitable for "correction".



When everything is said and done and the eternal order is a reality, every person who enters it will have made a personal chioice to be there. God is going to reign in eternity but he is not going to reign over a single rebel. His kingdom is not built by conqueing his enemies, it is by convincing them and persuading them of his goodness, mercy, and grace, and all other attributes that he possess. All of them will have been washed in the blood of the Lamb and will be sinless in the eyes of God.



The substitution of biblical terms is the area where calvinism is most seductive.God does not save us by our permission, he saves us by our faith. Salvation is not an entitlement, it is the gift of God. It is not infused upon the unwitting and sleepy, it is received as a gift by the believer. It is these things because of the one time sacrifice of Jesus Christ for all men everywhere.



The gospel is easy to understand but it is hard to believe. Calvinists do not believe it and therefore change it. Calvinism is not the gospel of Jesus Christ and I am warning you about it.



The gospel is good news, glad tidings to every creature. Why? Because it has the ability to save every creature.

So salvation isn't by our permission, but by faith. So not everyone gets faith?