Calvinism Refuted

[Hammster]

A fundamental problem in Calvinistic soteriology is the concept that God regenerated the person or saved the person, then gave the person a special gift of faith so that the person will believe and get regenerated unto, what? He is already regenerated. So now man is double regenerated, double saved.

By the way the Bible process is not the same as this view

Sinner running from God
God - Seeking to save man
God audibly called the first preacher
The first preacher preached the message
Some believed some did not
Repentance and faith in the content of the message resulted in "Regeneration"

Let me see

• Message first
• Decision to receive the message
• Action taken concerning the message Repentance and "Your Faith" "their faith"
• Next salvation, new birth, born again, born from above, Regeneration - all the same thing
• Next - living by the same faith, their faith; that they believe with.
• Rocket science - no
• Calvinistic - no
• Arminian - no
• Biblical - Yes

Ezekiel 36:25-28
Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God.

John 3
Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”
Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?

It would appear that Jesus thought that Nicodemus should know these things. God, without anyone 'accepting Jesus' is sprinkled with clean water and given a new heart.

One verse I often here misquoted is John 3:3. I hear it often as "Unless one is born again, he cannot enter the kingdom of God". But that isn't what Jesus said, as noted by the highlight.

We cannot even see the kingdom, let alone enter it, unless and until the Holy Spirit does something to us, like wash us with clean water and take our heart of stone, and give a heart of flesh. Jesus said that Nicodemus should have known that.

 

[Benefactor]

Well! Now that is a deep subject

The verses you quoted I accept and say amen to:

The born again is a translation of the Greek Words that are literally translated Born from Above - Spiritual Birth

This Spiritual Birth happens when?

Repent and believe first.

The dead man in his trespasses and sin first must repent and believe before God will cause him to be born from above.

 

[Hammster]

Well! Now that is a deep subject

The verses you quoted I accept and say amen to:

The born again is a translation of the Greek Words that are literally translated Born from Above - Spiritual Birth

This Spiritual Birth happens when?

Repent and believe first.

The dead man in his trespasses and sin first must repent and believe before God will cause him to be born from above.

Funny, because that isn't what either passage says.

 

[Benefactor]

OK,

What does it say that I missed?

Second, if you don't mind answer this:

What comes first?

Repentance and faith in Christ

or

Regeneration, then faith then regeneration again (salvation)

 

[Hammster]

OK,

What does it say that I missed?

Second, if you don't mind answer this:

What comes first?

Repentance and faith in Christ

or

Regeneration, then faith then regeneration again (salvation)

OR, faith because of regeneration. The new heart allows you to believe and gives you faith. Upon that faith comes repentance because you understand that you are a sinner. The light comes on.

Your question is almost like asking what comes first when you strike a match, the light or the heat? Although I am sure that my more learned Reformed brothers can give a much more detailed answer, I believe that I am on the right track.

 

[nobdysfool]

OR, faith because of regeneration. The new heart allows you to believe and gives you faith. Upon that faith comes repentance because you understand that you are a sinner. The light comes on.

Your question is almost like asking what comes first when you strike a match, the light or the heat? Although I am sure that my more learned Reformed brothers can give a much more detailed answer, I believe that I am on the right track.

Indeed you are, bro!

 

[heymikey80]

A fundamental problem in Calvinistic soteriology is the concept that God regenerated the person or saved the person, then gave the person a special gift of faith so that the person will believe and get regenerated unto, what? He is already regenerated. So now man is double regenerated, double saved.

Nope. Nothing about double regeneration in Calvinism.

 

[Robert Pate]

Indeed you are, bro!

If Calvinism is correct why is it there not more scriptures about it?

The word "predestination" is only used 4 times in the bible.

The word "elect", "election" is used about 28 times.

Whereas the word "faith" is used over 290 times.

The word "grace" is used hundreds of times.

Over and over, the bible says, WHOSOEVER, ALL MEN, THE WORLD.

Over and over, it says that salvation is by faith and grace to those who believe on Christ.

No where does it say that anyone is predestinated to go to hell.

 

[Hammster]

If Calvinism is correct why is it there not more scriptures about it?

The word "predestination" is only used 4 times in the bible.

The word "elect", "election" is used about 28 times.

Whereas the word "faith" is used over 290 times.

The word "grace" is used hundreds of times.

Over and over, the bible says, WHOSOEVER, ALL MEN, THE WORLD.

Over and over, it says that salvation is by faith and grace to those who believe on Christ.

No where does it say that anyone is predestinated to go to hell.

And why should it? If your not predestined to heaven, where else is there?

And where do you find the verse that says that the more words that are used, the theology you use should be based on that? This is the weirdest argument I have heard.

You are predestined. Don't need to go much into that. The elect passages are pretty clear. Don't need to go much into that. The whosoevers, all men, and the world have been covered in multiple threads ad nauseum (sp?). but we live by faith and grace and that is where God places emphasis on what He wants the elect to know. The bible is written for, and to, the elect, not the unbeliever. So that is where the emphasis is.

 

[Robert Pate]

And why should it? If your not predestined to heaven, where else is there?

And where do you find the verse that says that the more words that are used, the theology you use should be based on that? This is the weirdest argument I have heard.

You are predestined. Don't need to go much into that. The elect passages are pretty clear. Don't need to go much into that. The whosoevers, all men, and the world have been covered in multiple threads ad nauseum (sp?). but we live by faith and grace and that is where God places emphasis on what He wants the elect to know. The bible is written for, and to, the elect, not the unbeliever. So that is where the emphasis is.

There are no words "predestinated" in the Old Testament.

The bible makes it clear that the Patriarchs were justified by faith. Nothing about anyone being predestinated.

You have covered the ALL MEN, WHOSOEVERS, THE WORLD. But it just didn't make sense.

 

[Hammster]

There are no words "predestinated" in the Old Testament.

The bible makes it clear that the Patriarchs were justified by faith. Nothing about anyone being predestinated.

You have covered the ALL MEN, WHOSOEVERS, THE WORLD. But it just didn't make sense.

I have asked you many times to defend your use of 1 John 2:2 and you just won't do it. So if didn't make any sense then it isn't my fault that you don't at least understand the argument. Again, not understanding an argument is not a defense against it. If you don't understand the argument, just ask for clarification.

 

[JacobHall86]

For the record, the reason why "predestinated" is not in the NT, is because its not a real word. The word is Predestination or Predestined.

 

[heymikey80]

The bible makes it clear that the Patriarchs were justified by faith. Nothing about anyone being predestinated.

The Bible states that "those He predestined, He called; those He called, He justified ...."

 

[Benefactor]

Wrong thread moved

 

[Hammster]

Those of you that are responding to my post would you read the above statement and respond to one of two ways:

I agree

I disagree

I will attach due credit and source after you have answered

I found it. Google is great. What is your point? Didn't we already do something like this? Have you resorted to trickery to try to make your point?

In general, I agree.

 

[Benefactor]

Move it over to my thread so that the present emphasis here is not interrupted

 

[Robert Pate]

I have asked you many times to defend your use of 1 John 2:2 and you just won't do it. So if didn't make any sense then it isn't my fault that you don't at least understand the argument. Again, not understanding an argument is not a defense against it. If you don't understand the argument, just ask for clarification.

I don't think that 1 John 2:2 needs me to defend it, it speaks for its self, just like all the other scriptures that say, ALL MEN, WHOSOEVER, THE WHOLE WORLD.

You either believe that God in the person of Jesus Christ has provided salvation for ALL or you don't. If you don't, then I would question your faith.

 

[nobdysfool]

Regeneration, then faith then regeneration again (salvation)

No. Regeneration is regeneration and salvation is the result of regeneration, and not synonymous. here's where you guys fall down , hard. Poor word definitons, and moving word definitions. You won't listen long enough to get it through your heads that regeneration in the Calvinist understanding is a definite event, not an over-arching set of events. Regeneration is synonymous with born again, and is one event in the process of salvation, not the entire set of events.

So, a man is regenerated by God, he receives faith via the hearing of the Word, he believes, repents of his sins, and is justified by God on the basis of his faith in Christ, and sanctified by the indwelling of the Spirit, and he is, as a result of those events, saved.

 

[heymikey80]

I don't think that 1 John 2:2 needs me to defend it, it speaks for its self, just like all the other scriptures that say, ALL MEN, WHOSOEVER, THE WHOLE WORLD.

It does speak for itself -- and when it does, "all men" is general, not comprehensive, "whosoever" is conditional when the context is checked (that is, when Scripture speaks for itself), and "whole world" is all creation.

You either believe that God in the person of Jesus Christ has provided salvation for ALL or you don't. If you don't, then I would question your faith.

So now faith in Christ isn't enough? Is it your point that people must have faith that Christ has provided salvation for ALL, or they're not Christians?

Scripture, please.

 

[Benefactor]

No. Regeneration is regeneration and salvation is the result of regeneration, and not synonymous. here's where you guys fall down , hard. Poor word definitons, and moving word definitions. You won't listen long enough to get it through your heads that regeneration in the Calvinist understanding is a definite event, not an over-arching set of events. Regeneration is synonymous with born again, and is one event in the process of salvation, not the entire set of events.

So, a man is regenerated by God, he receives faith via the hearing of the Word, he believes, repents of his sins, and is justified by God on the basis of his faith in Christ, and sanctified by the indwelling of the Spirit, and he is, as a result of those events, saved.

Before you jump off the edge of the cleft read the three quotes in my thread and then comment.