Calvinism Refuted

[MamaZ]

One thing we have to keep in mind is God is the only free being.. He is not bound by time nor the dictates of mens will or works. God is free to choose whom He will for His purpose. He calls out those whom He chooses according to the purpose of His will. Not mans will.

 

[heymikey80]

The basic issue, JDS, is whether Scripture demands this be cause/effect, faith (or some observation of it) cause or trigger eternal life. Because that's what's demanding precedence in your view.

The grammar in John 20 doesn't appear to demand one be caused by the other.

Where's that verse that says faith causes New Birth? How about a verse where faith is prior to New Birth?

 

[Robert Pate]

Just as Lazarus was called forth from the dead so is everyone of Gods Adopted Children for while we were yet dead in our tresspasses Christ died for us. All of Gods elect are called forth from Spiritual deadness to Spiritual life By Jesus Christ.

The spirit of God is in the world calling all to come to Christ.

To say that he is not is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

Jesus says he stands at the door and knocks, Revelation 3:20.

To say that man is so spiritually dead that he cannot hear the call is blasphemy against God, Who is not willing that any should perish.

 

[MamaZ]

The spirit of God is in the world calling all to come to Christ.

To say that he is not is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

Jesus says he stands at the door and knocks, Revelation 3:20.

To say that man is so spiritually dead that he cannot hear the call is blasphemy against God, Who is not willing that any should perish.

Heard it all before my friend.. If God were calling all men to Christ all men would be in Christ..

 

[MamaZ]

It is Gods sovereign call to His elect.

 

[Bulstrode Whitelock]

I also find it interesting that Rev. 3:20 is rolled out by Arminians.

The context is an admonition to people who were already Christians though in error.

The passage refers to a return by people who already belong to Him.

 

[MamaZ]

I also find it interesting that Rev. 3:20 is rolled out by Arminians.

The context is an admonition to people who were already Christians though in error.

The passage refers to a return by people who already belong to Him.

Yes and also Jesus states He who has an Ear let Him hear.. So we must have the Spiritual ear to hear just as Jesus said My sheep hear my voice..

 

[Hammster]

Just as Lazarus was called forth from the dead so is everyone of Gods Adopted Children for while we were yet dead in our tresspasses Christ died for us. All of Gods elect are called forth from Spiritual deadness to Spiritual life By Jesus Christ.

I don't thin Jesus would have raised Lazarus from the dead w/o his permission and willingness to believe.

 

[MamaZ]

I don't thin Jesus would have raised Lazarus from the dead w/o his permission and willingness to believe.

Lazarus was dead.. He had no willingness. When lazarus was called forth from the dead how can a dead man say no I don't want to believe you can raise me from the dead?

 

[cygnusx1]

I don't thin Jesus would have raised Lazarus from the dead w/o his permission and willingness to believe.

 

[JDS]

JDS,

Thanks for the dispensational review, but how does any of this "refute" Calvinism?

I looked at your profile. You are an amillennialist. This means you have chosen to believe all the prophecies of the suffereing of the Messiah when he first came but you have chosen to allegorized the prophecies of his reign on earth through Israel, though at times information about both are in the same verse. How is this not practicing a double hermeneutic?

 

[MamaZ]

I looked at your profile. You are an amillennialist. This means you have chosen to believe all the prophecies of the suffereing of the Messiah when he first came but you have chosen to allegorized the prophecies of his reign on earth through Israel, though at times information about both are in the same verse. How is this not practicing a double hermeneutic?

Why not just stick to the topic of the thread and not pick out a person and judge and question this person?

 

[MamaZ]

Oh okay I am a marble head

I sat in total amazment at his comment and scratched my head...

 

[cygnusx1]

The spirit of God is in the world calling all to come to Christ.

what of those who died , who never heard ?

To say that he is not is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

scripture please .

Jesus says he stands at the door and knocks, Revelation 3:20.

what about context ?

To say that man is so spiritually dead that he cannot hear the call is blasphemy against God, Who is not willing that any should perish.

if God is unwilling that none perish then none can perish , is anything too hard for the Lord ?

if God wills none to perish He should forgive everyone , unconditionally right this second !

 

[Bulstrode Whitelock]

I looked at your profile. You are an amillennialist. This means you have chosen to believe all the prophecies of the suffereing of the Messiah when he first came but you have chosen to allegorized the prophecies of his reign on earth through Israel, though at times information about both are in the same verse. How is this not practicing a double hermeneutic?

I have noticed something about you JDS:

You have this habit of telling people what they believe. And you don't do it with charity or an interest in being just or fair with their beliefs. You do it in a way which, if they take your bait, forces them into a defense of your caricature rather than their own presentation.

You have done it throughout this conversation with Calvinism as a whole and now you are doing it with my eschatological opinions.

It's all a game to you. It's about setting them up and knocking them down.

It's not a game to me, so I am going to ask that you return to the issue at hand and continue with your efforts to "refute" Calvinism.

Thanks

 

[Tzaousios]

Where has all of the earlier enthusiasm to refute Calvinism gone?

Although my purpose in this discussion is not necessarily to refute Calvinism per se, I do have genuine questions about it and am interested in it.

I asked you as well as several other resident Calvinists in here to examine my questions. cygnusx1 and Bulstrode Whitelock were kind enough to engage them.

The rest of you seem to want to take potshots as those whom you know are rabid anti-Calvinists and provide easy caricatures to refute and mock.

If you would like to view my questions, here is a list:

#741
#773
#791
#814
#834
#840
#855

 

[JDS]

Why not just stick to the topic of the thread and not pick out a person and judge and question this person?

What kind of question is this?

 

[MamaZ]

What kind of question is this?

A simple one

 

[Bulstrode Whitelock]

In the Calvinist system, based first on Augustine, it seems to be that the reprobate cannot believe because God has determined that they should be allowed not to want to believe.

I really appreciate your effort to be fair here but I think you're incorrect. It's probably truer to say that in the Calvinist understanding, which is based upon Augustine, the reprobate will not believe because God has left them in their natural post-lapsus state; i.e. the won't believe because they don't want to.

If God, in his absolute sovereignty, chose to bring the elect out of the mass of the damned, and thus left the remainder to continue to their destruction, it follows that he has withheld the grace that is efficient for them to desire and will to believe in the Savior, which is the other option than the one they are locked into by nature.

Yes, I think that's right.

Nevertheless, as the Scriptures say, the clay has no right to demand from the Potter why it was made a vessel for destruction. Ultimately it is God demonstrating his cosmic justice for his glorification, according to Calvinists. The reprobate were given the freedom only to desire and want to sin.

Yes, but it should be pointed out that it is not as though they really want to believe and God is just being mean and not letting them.

But in the end, according to the Calvinist system, since God is outside of time, and therefore his predestination and foreknowing are connected in an eternal present, it was determined that Adam would sin, and that he determined this according to his divine plan. It was not a part of God's plan that Adam have the option of choosing not to sin. God's predestination and foreknowing of this event are one and the same.

Well, this is an area where Calvinists have some disagreement, but you probably know that. But I don't think anyone would disagree fundamentally with what you've said here. I don't.

Also, it logically follows that God created evil and determined that it be used according to his divine plan.

I have trouble with the word "created" because it implies authorship, as though God could "do" evil. But I will certainly agree that He ordains and decrees evil and uses it according to His plan.

This is an area where a lot of Calvinists are fuzzy or inconsistent I think...it's a hard saying after all.

 

[cygnusx1]

Spurgeon? Interesting inclusion in this list.

He's famous to me for writing books.

He packed a church as well, like Ferguson, Kennedy, Barnhouse, Edwards .... But first and foremost in my mind are his devotions and sermons with actual content.

"The New Park Street Pulpit and The Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit—the collected sermons of Spurgeon during his ministry with that congregation—fill 63 volumes. The sermons' 20-25 million words are equivalent to the 27 volumes of the ninth edition of the Encyclopedia Britannica. The series stands as the largest set of books by a single author in the history of Christianity. " ..