Calvinism Refuted

[nobdysfool]

Within the ranks of its die-hard supporters. The rest of the world wonders at their death-grip.

Oh, so that explains why it is growing....

To the Believer, no explanation is needed. To the Doubter, no explanation is possible.....

 

[DD2008]

The rumors of Calvinism's demise are greatly exaggerated....

Actually Calvinism is growing and flourishing:

See this Article:

http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1884779_1884782_1884760,00.html

 

[nobdysfool]

Actually Calvinism is growing and flourishing:

See this Article:

http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1884779_1884782_1884760,00.html

That was my point!

Our brother, archierieus, is working from faulty knowledge.

 

[MamaZ]

Salvation is by grace through faith. Always has been, always will be.

God chose Israel, prophets, Patriarchs, apostles, All for the purpose of bringing forth the savior of the world 1 John 2:2.

There are a multitude of scriptures that say, WHOSOEVER, THE WHOLE WORLD, ALL MEN. we must conclude that salvation has been provided for ALL. Not just some.

Romans 4:16 says, "Therfore it is of faith that it might be by grace: to the end the PROMISE might be sure to ALL THE SEED; not to that only which is of the law (the Jews) but to that also which is of the FAITH of Abraham; who is the FATHER OF US ALL."

Never said that salvation is not of Grace through faith. But the grace of God is poured out upon His elect.. IT is through Him that any man can enter in.. God chose Isreal and all because that is Who God is.. This is how God Is.. He changes not..You pick one scripture out of the whole book of Romans? The who soever is for every race and nation.. Not every person.. For Jesus came to the Chosen people of the OC. They did not receive Him. As we go further or even back to Isaiah we see why they did not receive Him. Salvation belongs to those whom God has chosen by His foreknowledge of them.. Men just don't fall into salvation all by their selves.. Man cannot choose to save themselves.. Men do not have the capacity to save themselves.. For grace is how any man has been saved.. This is unmerited favor from God. Not the choosing of men.. We do not read that we have been saved by cooperating with grace.. We read we have been saved by Grace.. Jesus is the author and the finisher of our faith.. It all circles around God and not man and His choosing.

 

[Hammster]

T. Jefferson's 'marketplace of ideas' concept, which I subscribe to. Peer review, which is part of that. Evaluate the ideas, compare them with Scripture. As for the Canons of Dordt, they are not authority for doctrine. Scripture is the only authority.







Same as above.







Same as above.









The principles of Greek grammar did not originate with me. Check them out for yourself. Check out 'middle voice' and 'imperfect tense.'

Well,at that isn't what you had said, so I appreciate the clarification. I await with baited breath for your response to my earlier inquiry.

 

[MamaZ]

He works from a human reasoning of a Spiritual read.. Instead of taking the scriptures and combining them as a whole he seperates them into segments without adding them together for the whole picture and conclusion of the full counsel of the written scriptures..

 

[nobdysfool]

It is worth repeating that Abraham is the father of believers, the faithful, not the father of all men without exception.

This is one of those places where "all" does not mean "all men without exception".

 

[archierieus]

To the Believer, no explanation is needed. To the Doubter, no explanation is possible.....

Once again, the appeal to a secret knowledge which only initiates can comprehend. But that is not objective Bible study or peer review. It is a feature of the mystery religions.

 

[DD2008]

That was my point!

Our brother, archierieus, is working from faulty knowledge.

Something is faulty. It's either his knowledge or his intent.

We should pray for him.

 

[archierieus]

Well,at that isn't what you had said.

Please clarify??? Will get back to this later this evening, and look up the Greek word(s) you are asking about.

 

[DD2008]

Once again, the appeal to a secret knowledge which only initiates can comprehend. But that is not objective Bible study or peer review. It is a feature of the mystery religions.

It's actually a feature of truth. It is right here in scripture.

1 Corinthians 2:14 ESV
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[DD2008]

Please clarify??? Will get back to this later this evening, and look up the Greek word(s) you are asking about.

Why don't you just use the ESV and cut the nonsense?

Many great scholars have used the best available resources to translate the ESV. It it very popular and is probably the best translation into english ever.

Compare it to the NASB and the KJV and you can't go wrong.

http://www.esv.org/

 

[Hammster]

Please clarify??? Will get back to this later this evening, and look up the Greek word(s) you are asking about.

It really isn't that important. If you want, you can look it up.

 

[Benefactor]

What I am going to do is make comments on these sections as I see it. That should answer the questoin in your last post.

1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God

.
The word is God / it is Jesus

2. He was in the beginning with God

.
Verse two "word" is now identified as "He" He is with God and He is God

3. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Jesus brought all things into existence

4. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.

Jesus is life and He is the Light of all men

5. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

Jesus is the light. Darkness did not comprehend it. Darkness here is spiritual darkness and this darkness has the ability of not comprehending. This means to me that fallen man is the object of the statement and his heart and mind are darkness.

6. There came a man sent from God, whose name was John

John the Baptist

7. He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him.

John the Baptist testified about Jesus the Light so that all might believe through him. The all is a pronominal adjective describing "men" which is understood in the text even though the word for man is not there. The "pa" is plural masculine and is correctly translated "all men" and this is correctly understood as all mankind. Next "might believe" a subjunctive verb and thus it is a conditional statement that is why the translators use the work "might" believe. This being conditional tells us that a choice must be made. "Through Him" means that on account of Him. He is the reason they have the possibility to believe. Without Him there is not through Him. Christ is the life, the light, the way, the door is perhaps the best metaphor defining "through"

8. He was not the Light, but {he came} to testify about the Light.

John the Baptis was not the Christ but came to testify about Christ

9. There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.

Jesus came into the world, the virgin birth, He is the light and He enlightens every man who is born into this life. This tells me that everyone person who is born regardless of time of place receives this enlightenment.

10. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.

Jesus was born into this world and the world He was born into was created by Him. The world did not know Him does not mean all thinks of creation other man mankind, "all mankind did not know Him". How did they not know Him? They did not know him as their Savior and the saved and past saved did not know him as the savior. I personally don't ascribe the knowing to the refusal of Salvation or the acceptance of it. Christ was a mystery to everyone until it was revealed. Saved and lost alike in this respect did not know Him.
.

 

[Robert Pate]

It is worth repeating that Abraham is the father of believers, the faithful, not the father of all men without exception.

This is one of those places where "all" does not mean "all men without exception".

Abraham is the father of all who are justified by faith. Romans 4:5 "God justifies the ungodly." Doesn't say God justifies the elect. If you think you are predestinated you don't need to be justified by faith.

 

[Hammster]

What I am going to do is make comments on these sections as I see it. That should answer the questoin in your last post.





.

The word is God / it is Jesus

.

Verse two "word" is now identified as "He" He is with God and He is God

Jesus brought all things into existence



Jesus is life and He is the Light of all men

Jesus is the light. Darkness did not comprehend it. Darkness here is spiritual darkness and this darkness has the ability of not comprehending. This means to me that fallen man is the object of the statement and his heart and mind are darkness.John the BaptistJohn the Baptist testified about Jesus the Light so that all might believe through him. The all is a pronominal adjective describing "men" which is understood in the text even though the word for man is not there. The "pa" is plural masculine and is correctly translated "all men" and this is correctly understood as all mankind. Next "might believe" a subjunctive verb and thus it is a conditional statement that is why the translators use the work "might" believe. This being conditional tells us that a choice must be made. "Through Him" means that on account of Him. He is the reason they have the possibility to believe. Without Him there is not through Him. Christ is the life, the light, the way, the door is perhaps the best metaphor defining "through"



John the Baptis was not the Christ but came to testify about Christ



Jesus came into the world, the virgin birth, He is the light and He enlightens every man who is born into this life. This tells me that everyone person who is born regardless of time of place receives this enlightenment.



Jesus was born into this world and the world He was born into was created by Him. The world did not know Him does not mean all thinks of creation other man mankind, "all mankind did not know Him". How did they not know Him? They did not know him as their Savior and the saved and past saved did not know him as the savior. I personally don't ascribe the knowing to the refusal of Salvation or the acceptance of it. Christ was a mystery to everyone until it was revealed. Saved and lost alike in this respect did not know Him.

.

So what you had to do is make assumptions as to what the writer meant by 'Word', 'light' etc. to make your point. It also says that he came into His own and His own knew Him not., or did not receive Him. Is not John a Jew? Did John not receive Him?

 

[nobdysfool]

Abraham is the father of all who are justified by faith. Romans 4:5 "God justifies the ungodly." Doesn't say God justifies the elect. If you think you are predestinated you don't need to be justified by faith.

How do you figure that? I was predestined for salvation, to take place at a specific time and place. The predestination did not save me. It only made certain that I would be saved. Predestination does not depend on man, it is all of God. Apparently you haven't learned the difference, given the imprecise and completely false way you try to use the word.


And, I will say it yet again: Abraham is not the father of all men without exception. He is the father of the faithful, those who are justified by faith in the Son of the Living God.

You specifically avoided that point. All does not always mean all without exception.

 

[Hammster]

I wonder why, if Calvinism has become so marginalized, so many are on here trying to disprove it?

(I bet I will get an answer)

 

[nobdysfool]

I wonder why, if Calvinism has become so marginalized, so many are on here trying to disprove it?

(I bet I will get an answer)

Don't count this as an answer, it's just an explanation from my own vantage point....

Pride, an inflated sense of self-importance, a refusal to accept reality, a willful suspension of disbelief, a misguided crusade, take your pick.....

 

[drstevej]

The urgent need to affirm free will........

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