Please elaborate.
So far, what I have been able to determine is that in Calvinistic theology God creates us and then decides whether we're going to either heaven or hell without any of our input, despite any illusions of perceived freedom in regards to our salvation.
The so-called "freedom" we have is that we get to choose or reject God, but the catch is that everyone rejects God unless God has predestined us to accept him. That's not freedom.
So I think my original question still stands, unless there's something I'm missing here.
Start with Gen. 2, then go to Gen. 3, then ch. 4, then ch. 6, go on through Genesis, Deuteronomy, especially ch. 4, 5, 6, and toward the end of the book, Joshua, you can start with those.
Here is an argument against that.
Start in Genesis 1 and work your way through Revelation.
Incorrect. The chapters I listed contain specific events and experiences which you were asking for. I did not take time to look up the exact verses, but by going to the chapters listed you can readily find the accounts. If you really need it, I can recite the events from each chapter.
I don't think it's been answered really. The answer given seems very circular.
Because the view of God which it sounds like Dark Lite and I share (if I may presume to speak for him) is that God is not only Sovereign, but just and very concerned about being perceived as just, as Someone who can be loved and trusted, treating all alike, just as God repeatedly charged the leaders of His people. He is just, but He is also merciful, delighting to show mercy at every opportunity, and He loves each and every person with a love deeper than human words can express. That kind of God is no sadist. But what WOULD be sadistic would be if God picked some at random to burn in hell, save this one, damn that one, just cuz that is what He wanted to do. If such were done by a human, on this earth, he would be considered a monster and subject to being executed.
Yes, please.
Rhetoric.
Start with Gen. 2, tree of knowledge of good and evil
then go to Gen. 3, Adam and Eve made a freewill choice which cost them their lives
then ch. 4, God appeals to Cain to resist temptation
then ch. 6, The Holy Spirit strives with mankind to obey God
Deuteronomy, especially ch. 4, 5, 6, and toward the end of the book, God's repeated appeals to diligently obey the voice of the Lord their God, that it may be well with them, to keep His commandments, but if they choose not to, disaster and destruction will come upon them, ch. 28
Joshua, choose this day whom you will serve
And how does this refute Calvinism?
It was posted in response to your question if the Bible teaches freewill in regard to salvation.
My bad. trying to follow too many arguments. I believe that man has free will in regards to salvation.
That being the case, I am wondering if a big part of the controversy has more to do with semantics?
I don't think so, though sometimes it might. The issue as I see it comes down to what makes a man want God. It is not in his natural state, so something must change.
I think Calvinists sometimes get hung up on free will, just as some non-Calvinists get hung up on 'whosoever'. To me, salvation has less to do with ability to choose than it has to do with desire. Man goes from not wanting God to wanting God, and it has to be more than just education.
And without a doubt, that desire for God is inspired by God. God initiates at each step of salvation. I would guess the most significant difference then would be the scope of the gospel invitation. I understand Scripture to teach that God gives that invitation to everyone and works through the Holy Spirit upon each heart, to awaken a desire for spiritual things. Some respond, others harden their hearts.
And without a doubt, God creates or inspires that desire. The natural man is not interested in the things of God. Once again, the point of difference may be the scope of God's work.
Which raises a question: if indeed that is a significant difference, why would it be objectionable to Calvinists if God DOES reach out to everyone? Whatever good comes of it, is all from God and because of God anyway.
Dave
You state here that the natural man is not interested in the things of God. It fact the Bible tells us we cannot know them and find them foolish.And without a doubt, God creates or inspires that desire. The natural man is not interested in the things of God. Once again, the point of difference may be the scope of God's work.
Which raises a question: if indeed that is a significant difference, why would it be objectionable to Calvinists if God DOES reach out to everyone? Whatever good comes of it, is all from God and because of God anyway.
Dave
Hebrews 9:15 is a good one, too. Since 'called' has a variety of uses, why do you insist that it can't be used in the sense that I am using it?You are correct that everyone is called.
The verse you are relying on does not use the term, 'effectual, nor does it appear in the Greek. But as for 'call,' I decided to look at the other occurrences of this form in the NT. The word itself has a range of meanings. Here are the occurrences:
Mt. 1:28
Mt. 4:21
Mt. 25:14
Mk. 1:20
Lk. 14:16
Rom. 9:24
1 Thess. 4:7
2 Thess. 2:14
As you can see, 'called' has a range of meanings, including calling by a name, calling to service, calling to a feast, calling to purity, calling to salvation.
Where do you come up with the idea that everyone is called? I don't see that in the passage, or the chapter.He could have said that those He foreknew are called along with everyone else, but all those He foreknew are justified. KIM that the entire chapter focuses on the saved, on those who are followers of Jesus, and is a series of encouragements to those who are afflicted by trials. Paul does not in the chapter deal with the unsaved. He does speak of them elsewhere, notably in chs. 1 thru 4, and in his discourse to the Athenians.
So, if, as the passage supports, everyone is called, but those whom God foreknew He kept ever before Him, called them with a holy calling, justified and sanctified them, etc., where does that leave the Calvinist position?
So you are adding "calls by His own name" into the passage? Tsk, Tsk.That is, God calls everyone--and that is Scriptural, but knows who will respond, and those He so foreknows He keeps ever before Him as precious in His sight, calls them by His own name, calls them to holy living, acquits them on the basis of their acceptance of Jesus by faith, and glorifies them.
Those who believe that they have been predestinated do not have a real appreciation of the Gospel.
Robert Pate said:If you think that you have been predestinated then who needs faith, grace, the forgiveness of sins. Who needs to repent. Who needs to do anything.
Robert Pate said:Calvinism is anti-faith, anti-grace, anti-gospel, anti-bible, anti-christ.
Robert Pate said:Romans 5:15-18, the gift of God is mentioned 5 times. Salvation is a gift from God, it cannot be earned or deserved otherwise it would not be a gift. The only thing that one can do to receive God's great free gift of salvation is to accept it as a free gift.
"For by grace are you saved, through faith and not that of yourselves, it is a gift from God." Ephesians 2:8.
Yes.
I would think under most people's theology God chooses who goes to heaven and hell.
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