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Netpreacher

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On a quick side note, I am not trying to attack anyone here personally. I have many friends who believe reformed doctrine. I like dialogue concerning these topics, and I have many concerns concerning Calvinism and other such systems of doctrine. I do not believe reformed doctrine, although I am not too proud to admit I will never believe reformed doctrine, but I want to add to this discussion in the bond and spirit of charity, and nothing more.

Attempting to make every man perfect in Christ Jesus,
Danny
 
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Netpreacher

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God allows those He has not chosen to be deceived into thinking they are saved? The Bible tells us that all that call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. If a person calls upon Jesus, whether they are called by Him or not, they will be saved for His oath's sake.

When God is asked for a piece of bread, He will not give a stone. If someone calls on Jesus, but isn't elect, then God just strings them along, tricking them into deception? Giving them false assurance? Blinding their eyes? Destroying them, even though they have believed the Bible for what it says?

There was one who cast out devils who was not among the disciples, and Jesus didn't call him! However, he was vindicated by the Lord, even though he was not called personally by Jesus Christ. This proves that election is not individual, but corporate.

Jesus called the rich man, but the rich man eventually didn't follow Jesus. Either Jesus really didn't mean it when He called the rich man, which would make Him kinda mean (I speak as a man), or the rich man rejected Him out of his own free agency.
 
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Netpreacher

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puriteen18 said:
If you ever took a history class, then you know that Calvinists over the centuries have been ridiculed for their strict moral codes.
Calvinists renowned for holiness? Luther was an anti-Semite who taught people how to burn down synagogues. The Nazi Regime started destroying the Jews on Luther's birthday because of Luther's tracts against the Jews. Luther also was renowned for persecuting the Anabaptists.

Calvin himself consented to the murder of Michael Servetus because he didn't believe Calvin's doctrines. If this is the kind of holiness we should follow, I'm glad I'm not a Calvinist.
 
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For His Glory

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Carico said:
Again, being a Calvinist means following Calvin just as being a Lutheran means following Luther. I follow Christ. I like some of Luther's teachings and some of Calvin's.


Actually Carico, being a Calvinist or Reformed doesn't mean we follow Calvin, it really means we just agree with what he taught regarding God's Sovereignty and man's responsibility before God.

In Christ,

Robert
 
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Blackhawk

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Who would like you like to be then? The inquisition also was after Servetus but he got away from them earlier. Neither Calvin nor Luther were perfect by any stretch of the imagination but your characterization of them is not fair.
 
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puriteen18

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Matthew 7
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Many make a false confession in the LORD. They do it no tout of faith in Him, but out of perhaps a "religious high" brought about by a meeting service. Perhaps a persons seeks only the saving from Hell and not to follow after the narrow way.

Matthew 11
25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

God hid himself from these. There was an outward call to repent, yet God did not grant repentance to them. An outward call to serve God goes out to all, but the inward call goes only to the elect.

The Bible records God hardening the hearts of many, according to His holy will.

God kept the two son's of Eli from listening to their father:

1 Samuel 2
25 If one man sin against another, the judge shall judge him: but if a man sin against the LORD, who shall intreat for him? Notwithstanding they hearkened not unto the voice of their father, because the LORD would slay them.

Jehovah sents His mercy to who it pleases Him:

Romans 8
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

He has mercy on who He will. Even this, He chose us before we where born so that His soverign election will be clear and that no one will say salvation is in anyway of themselves. (verse 11)

I neither want to sound hateful, for all of my family are free-willers, as well as most of my friends. As I have said, I am just defending my faith.
 
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puriteen18

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Netpreacher said:
Calvinists renowned for holiness?

......

Calvin himself consented to the murder of Michael Servetus because he didn't believe Calvin's doctrines. If this is the kind of holiness we should follow, I'm glad I'm not a Calvinist.
Servetus taught that there is no original sin, an unorthodox idea of the Trinity, and other heresies.

He and Calvin had written back and forth over the doctrine of the Trinity. Calvin told him not to come to Geneva. He came anyway. He was told to not teach his heresies, he did anyway. He was told to leave, he didn't. He was convicted and burned.

No, I do not think that we should burn heretics, but I think Servetus had ample opputunity to live.
_____________

I mean mot here to sound prideful but there was a
definition mix up:

holiness- to be seperate, apart.
righteousness- to be right living.

Righteousness is a secondary definition of holiness.
________

True Calvin burned a heretic. I do not believe this was right, but your earlier accusation to say that Calvinism leads to a lack of moral responsiblity is wrong.

Swiss Calvinist, French Hugenouts, the Scotch Prebys, and especially the English Puritans have from the begining been under attack by those who would call them legalists. Call us legalists, when we believe that following the Law will grant us nothing toward salvation, that it is all of His sovereign Grace. We only teach that those who are truly of God follow His Law because they love Him and wish to please Him.
 
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G4m

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Romans 11
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
 
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Unix

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Here's a link for all who believe in the Elecition:
read the part about Election at page 20 at this page:
http://worship.lcms.org/LHP/LHPFieldtest2002/04Translations/BibleComp.pdf
( You can search from the entire document for the text-string:
This example is a combination of both a textual and a theological issue.
...then you'll purhaps find it faster than by scrolling )
 
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victoryword

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John Calvin was a heretic. Servetus was not the only person tortured and burned under Calvin's tyrannical reign. Calvin followed Augustine, who also persecuted his enemies (like the Donatists for example). He followed Augustine in both doctrine and lifestyle. Most Calvinists today will not burn their enemies at the stake (only because it is against the law) but they will now use VERBAL ASSASINATION to destroy their enemies. Look at what some Calvinists have written against Arminians:

"Calvinism is the eternal truth. Arminianism has always been an inveterate lie." (R. Harbach, Calvinism the Truth, 1984, p. 3)

"It is clear that Arminianism is anti-Scriptural, but that Calvinism is completely true to the Bible." (G. Clark, Predestination, 1987, p. 144)

"The Biblical truths of Calvinism are never so clear as against the erroneous ideas of the Arminian." (Palmer, p. 26)

"Arminianism thought is … the ancient pagan learning that had just been rediscovered in the Renaissance." (McGregor Wright, No Place for Sovereignty, 1996, p. 90)

"… [Arminianism is] the last and greatest monster of the man of sin, the elixir of Anti-Christianity." (Leighton, An Antidote Against Arminianism, 1982, p. 2)

"These doctrines are a perversion of the Truth of God and the way of salvation. They have no scriptural foundation." (W. MacLean, Arminianism: Another Gospel, 1976, p. 5)

"Arminianism is the plague of the church and the scourge of sound doctrine." (Herman Hanko, God’s Everlasting Covenant of Grace, 1988, p. 16)

"We believe that what has been known in Church history as Calvinism is the purest and most consistent embodiment of the religion of Faith, while that which has been known as Arminianism has been diluted to a dangerous degree by the religion of works." (Boettner, Reformed Faith, p. 1)

"[Arminianism] appears as the gospel, but in reality is ‘another gospel.’ " (MacLean, Arminianism: Another Gospel, p. 5)

"Arminianism is that rejected error which has become the most insidiously devised heresy ever to lay claim to Biblical support." (Harbach, Calvinism the Truth, p. 3)


Calvinists are good at both verbal assasination and taking Scripture out of context. I am amazed at how many of you take Scripture out of context to support your unbiblical Calvinistic views. Sheesh!
 
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victoryword

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For the person who claims that I misrepresented the "P" in TULIP, explain these Calvinist quotes:

"There is a deadly and damnable heresy being widely propagated today to the effect that, if a sinner truly accepts Christ as his personal Saviour, no matter how he lives afterwards, he cannot perish. That is a Satanic lie ... something more than believing in Christ is necessary to ensure the soul's reaching Heaven" (quoted by lain Murray, Pink, pages 248-249).

John Murray (Redemption Accomplished & Applied, page 155) writes, "But let us appreciate the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints and recognize that we may entertain the faith of our security in Christ only as we persevere in faith and holiness to the end."

Pink (Interpretation of the Scriptures, page 54), "God preserves His people in the world through their perseverance."

"Reader, if there is a reserve in your obedience, you are on the way to hell."(Pink).

"Perseverance of the saints stress that man does something." (Palmer)
 
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Blackhawk

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Victoryword,

With all due respect your post is one of the largest pieces of trash I have read in quite a while.

victoryword said:
John Calvin was a heretic. Servetus was not the only person tortured and burned under Calvin's tyrannical reign.
Many were persecuted at that time period. Catholics were killing protestants. Protestants were killing CAtholics. And protestants were killing other protestants. oh and everyone was killing the pagans. But this statement shows clearly that you know very little of the history of Calvin and Geneva and the problem with Servetus. Calvin was not the all powerful leader in Geneva for much of the time he was there. The little council had much power and actually Calvin had to leave for a time because of them. So please read some GOOD history textbooks and the reply again.

victoryword said:
Calvin followed Augustine, who also persecuted his enemies (like the Donatists for example). He followed Augustine in both doctrine and lifestyle.
This statement is so ingnorant that I am choosing only to state the obvious.

victoryword said:
Most Calvinists today will not burn their enemies at the stake (only because it is against the law)
Is that what you think of me, Gabriel, Reformanist, and others who are Calvinists. You believe that we do not come after you and try to have you burned at the stake ONLY because it is against the law?

What is wrong with this quote? You might not agree with it but how is it so bad? You say much the same thing about Calvinists except you have a lowere view of Calvinists than he does of Arminians.

victoryword said:
I am amazed at how many of you take Scripture out of context to support your unbiblical Calvinistic views. Sheesh!
I am sure Arminians and others NEVER take scripture out of context to prove any points. No because they are good. it is the Calvinists who are evil and not real christians. right?

I am sure this post will get me my first warning and I probably shouldn't have written it or posted it but.....
 
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victoryword

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Blackhawk said:
Victoryword,

With all due respect your post is one of the largest pieces of trash I have read in quite a while.
Everyone is entitled to an opinion



Blackhawk said:
Many were persecuted at that time period. Catholics were killing protestants. Protestants were killing CAtholics. And protestants were killing other protestants. oh and everyone was killing the pagans.
AND THIS IS SUPPOSED TO EXCUSE CALVIN?!!!! How sad. Why aren't you a Roman Catholic or a PAGAN (though Augustine clearly adopted pagan ideas into his theology which were later adopted by Calvin. Add that to Augustine being the founder of the RC church).

Hahahahahaha! When you say GOOD historical books, do you mean those written from a CALVINIST bias?

I know enough to say that during Servetus' trial, Calvin wrote: "I hope that the verdict will call for the death penalty." (Walter Nigg, The Heretics (Alfred A. Knopf, Inc., 1962), p. 328.). This is the great "reformer" hoping for the death of his enemies. Does not sound like what Jesus said which was, "... Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you." (Matt. 5:44).

Calvin was a MURDERER. The Bible says, "And you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding [continuing] in him" (1 Jn. 3:15, NKJV). There is no historical record that says that Calvin ever repented of this. On the contrary, historical records show that Calvin defended his actions up to the time of his death.

Blackhawk said:
This statement is so ingnorant that I am choosing only to state the obvious.
This, of course in reply to my statement that Calvin followed Augustine, etc. You must have never read Calvin's Institutes. Augustine is quoted so much in that book that one could never deny what I have stated. Calvin writes, "Augustine is so wholly with me, that if I wished to write a confession of my faith, I could do so with all fulness and satisfaction to myself out of his writings."

So ignorance is BLISS! But it ain't MY ignorance ...



Blackhawk said:
Is that what you think of me, Gabriel, Reformanist, and others who are Calvinists. You believe that we do not come after you and try to have you burned at the stake ONLY because it is against the law?
I don't know you. I do know several Calvinists who are dear brothers in Christ. However, from what I have read from Calvinist writings and the fruit seen throughout the centuries, I have no doubts that this is exactly what many Calvinists would do if they had the control Church history is a witness to this.



Blackhawk said:
What is wrogn with this quote? You might agree with it but how is it so bad? You say much the same thing about Calvinists except you have a lowere view of Calvinists than he does of Arminians.
Arminians (and I do not consider myself Arminian though I am much closer to them than to Calvinism) are simply reacting to the attacks brought on by Calvinists.



I am sure that Arminians do. Unfortunately Calvinists whole theological system is built on misinterpretation of Scripture and out-of-context Scripture.
 
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Blackhawk

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Ummm Augustine has a lot to do with the theology of all Christendom. And I do not excuse Calvin for anything he did. However one must understand the time period and why he did it. You have to know about what was going on before you say statements like CAlvin is a murderer.

And why am I not a Roman Catjholic or pagan? Because I am not. I do not believe in what they do.



victoryword said:
Hahahahahaha! When you say GOOD historical books, do you mean those written from a CALVINIST bias?
No, I mean a good history book.


victoryword said:
I know enough to say that during Servetus' trial, Calvin wrote: "I hope that the verdict will call for the death penalty." (Walter Nigg, The Heretics (Alfred A. Knopf, Inc., 1962), p. 328.).
Where did Calvin write what you said he did? Cacn you give the direct source? Also quoting one sentence from Calvin or anyone can be take nout of context very easily. I know Calvin did not want Servetus to die but thought it just to have heretics killed.

no it does not. Again I am not excusing anything he did. But then again why did Calvin hope that Servetus would die? Answer me that.


Your statement that Calvin is a murderer is not supported. Please support it and then we can speak more. just saying that he wanted Servetus to die is not very good support.



If you reread your own post you will find that you were saying that Augustine was just like Calvin in your eyes. I was saying that your asestment of Augustine is laughable and it is clear you have not read much about Augustine.





WOW! What can I say to that? But do you also say this about the Catholic, Lutheran,and Anglican church traditions? And since your church comes down through the line of one of these what does this say about you and your church?





victoryword said:
Arminians (and I do not consider myself Arminian though I am much closer to them than to Calvinism) are simply reacting to the attacks brought on by Calvinists.
Huh? Both attack each other. Should i pull out some of the threads from this board where an Armininian attacked a Calvinist. I can but I think I would be wasting my time. you have in your mind that Calvinists are evil and want to burn everyone at the stake.





victoryword said:
I am sure that Arminians do. Unfortunately Calvinists whole theological system is built on misinterpretation of Scripture and out-of-context Scripture.
Your opinion. I most likely think that what you believe is built upon false interpretations of scripture also. But since you think Calvinists are almost all evil then you can see why I would take your opinion about them with a grain of salt.
 
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Charismaniac

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How could a loving God deprive any one of Salvation? I can understand a foreknowledge. Maybe he knows who will or will not accept him, but the God in the Bible at least does not seem to be the kind to disallow someone the right to salvation. The one thing Iv'e ever read that God can not do is to be unfair, and it is not fair to deny one person the right to salvation. Oh, I also have a question, What is the difference between Prederism(I don't know if I spelled it wrong) and Calvinism?
 
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victoryword

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John Calvin is a MURDERER!!!!

7 years before the incident:
"If he [Servetus] comes [to Geneva], I shall never let him go out alive if my authority has weight."

After the incident:
"Many people have accused me of such ferocious cruelty that (they allege) I would like to kill again the man I have destroyed. Not only am I indifferent to their comments, but I rejoice in the fact that they spit in my face." "Whoever shall now contend that it is unjust to put heretics and blasphemers to death will knowingly and willingly incur their very guilt.

 
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