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God allows those He has not chosen to be deceived into thinking they are saved? The Bible tells us that all that call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. If a person calls upon Jesus, whether they are called by Him or not, they will be saved for His oath's sake.puriteen18 said:True, many have made a false confession and are not truly saved. While they may show zeal for a while, they will fall away. Some shall perform even great works, but they are not saved. They may even have false assurance because God has blinded their eyes from the truth, but they shall meet the destruction which we all deserve.
Thanks be to God that salvation rests not in our hands but in His hand. For if it were left up to us, we should surely all fall into hell.
Calvinists renowned for holiness? Luther was an anti-Semite who taught people how to burn down synagogues. The Nazi Regime started destroying the Jews on Luther's birthday because of Luther's tracts against the Jews. Luther also was renowned for persecuting the Anabaptists.puriteen18 said:If you ever took a history class, then you know that Calvinists over the centuries have been ridiculed for their strict moral codes.
Carico said:Again, being a Calvinist means following Calvin just as being a Lutheran means following Luther. I follow Christ. I like some of Luther's teachings and some of Calvin's.
Who would like you like to be then? The inquisition also was after Servetus but he got away from them earlier. Neither Calvin nor Luther were perfect by any stretch of the imagination but your characterization of them is not fair.Netpreacher said:Calvinists renowned for holiness? Luther was an anti-Semite who taught people how to burn down synagogues. The Nazi Regime started destroying the Jews on Luther's birthday because of Luther's tracts against the Jews. Luther also was renowned for persecuting the Anabaptists.
Calvin himself consented to the murder of Michael Servetus because he didn't believe Calvin's doctrines. If this is the kind of holiness we should follow, I'm glad I'm not a Calvinist.
Matthew 7Netpreacher said:God allows those He has not chosen to be deceived into thinking they are saved? The Bible tells us that all that call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. If a person calls upon Jesus, whether they are called by Him or not, they will be saved for His oath's sake.
When God is asked for a piece of bread, He will not give a stone. If someone calls on Jesus, but isn't elect, then God just strings them along, tricking them into deception? Giving them false assurance? Blinding their eyes? Destroying them, even though they have believed the Bible for what it says?
There was one who cast out devils who was not among the disciples, and Jesus didn't call him! However, he was vindicated by the Lord, even though he was not called personally by Jesus Christ. This proves that election is not individual, but corporate.
Jesus called the rich man, but the rich man eventually didn't follow Jesus. Either Jesus really didn't mean it when He called the rich man, which would make Him kinda mean (I speak as a man), or the rich man rejected Him out of his own free agency.
Servetus taught that there is no original sin, an unorthodox idea of the Trinity, and other heresies.Netpreacher said:Calvinists renowned for holiness?
......
Calvin himself consented to the murder of Michael Servetus because he didn't believe Calvin's doctrines. If this is the kind of holiness we should follow, I'm glad I'm not a Calvinist.
Romans 11puriteen18 said:Romans 8
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
He has mercy on who He will. Even this, He chose us before we where born so that His soverign election will be clear and that no one will say salvation is in anyway of themselves. (verse 11)
I neither want to sound hateful, for all of my family are free-willers, as well as most of my friends. As I have said, I am just defending my faith.
Many were persecuted at that time period. Catholics were killing protestants. Protestants were killing CAtholics. And protestants were killing other protestants. oh and everyone was killing the pagans. But this statement shows clearly that you know very little of the history of Calvin and Geneva and the problem with Servetus. Calvin was not the all powerful leader in Geneva for much of the time he was there. The little council had much power and actually Calvin had to leave for a time because of them. So please read some GOOD history textbooks and the reply again.victoryword said:John Calvin was a heretic. Servetus was not the only person tortured and burned under Calvin's tyrannical reign.
This statement is so ingnorant that I am choosing only to state the obvious.victoryword said:Calvin followed Augustine, who also persecuted his enemies (like the Donatists for example). He followed Augustine in both doctrine and lifestyle.
Is that what you think of me, Gabriel, Reformanist, and others who are Calvinists. You believe that we do not come after you and try to have you burned at the stake ONLY because it is against the law?victoryword said:Most Calvinists today will not burn their enemies at the stake (only because it is against the law)
What is wrong with this quote? You might not agree with it but how is it so bad? You say much the same thing about Calvinists except you have a lowere view of Calvinists than he does of Arminians.victoryword said:"We believe that what has been known in Church history as Calvinism is the purest and most consistent embodiment of the religion of Faith, while that which has been known as Arminianism has been diluted to a dangerous degree by the religion of works." (Boettner, Reformed Faith, p. 1)
I am sure Arminians and others NEVER take scripture out of context to prove any points. No because they are good. it is the Calvinists who are evil and not real christians. right?victoryword said:I am amazed at how many of you take Scripture out of context to support your unbiblical Calvinistic views. Sheesh!
Everyone is entitled to an opinionBlackhawk said:Victoryword,
With all due respect your post is one of the largest pieces of trash I have read in quite a while.
AND THIS IS SUPPOSED TO EXCUSE CALVIN?!!!! How sad. Why aren't you a Roman Catholic or a PAGAN (though Augustine clearly adopted pagan ideas into his theology which were later adopted by Calvin. Add that to Augustine being the founder of the RC church).Blackhawk said:Many were persecuted at that time period. Catholics were killing protestants. Protestants were killing CAtholics. And protestants were killing other protestants. oh and everyone was killing the pagans.
Hahahahahaha! When you say GOOD historical books, do you mean those written from a CALVINIST bias?Blackhawk said:But this statement shows clearly that you know very little of the history of Calvin and Geneva and the problem with Servetus. Calvin was not the all powerful leader in Geneva for much of the time he was there. The little council had much power and actually Calvin had to leave for a time because of them. So please read some GOOD history textbooks and the reply again.
This, of course in reply to my statement that Calvin followed Augustine, etc. You must have never read Calvin's Institutes. Augustine is quoted so much in that book that one could never deny what I have stated. Calvin writes, "Augustine is so wholly with me, that if I wished to write a confession of my faith, I could do so with all fulness and satisfaction to myself out of his writings."Blackhawk said:This statement is so ingnorant that I am choosing only to state the obvious.
I don't know you. I do know several Calvinists who are dear brothers in Christ. However, from what I have read from Calvinist writings and the fruit seen throughout the centuries, I have no doubts that this is exactly what many Calvinists would do if they had the control Church history is a witness to this.Blackhawk said:Is that what you think of me, Gabriel, Reformanist, and others who are Calvinists. You believe that we do not come after you and try to have you burned at the stake ONLY because it is against the law?
Arminians (and I do not consider myself Arminian though I am much closer to them than to Calvinism) are simply reacting to the attacks brought on by Calvinists.Blackhawk said:What is wrogn with this quote? You might agree with it but how is it so bad? You say much the same thing about Calvinists except you have a lowere view of Calvinists than he does of Arminians.
I am sure that Arminians do. Unfortunately Calvinists whole theological system is built on misinterpretation of Scripture and out-of-context Scripture.Blackhawk said:I am sure Arminians and others NEVER take scripture out of context to prove any points. No because they are good. it is the Calvinists who are evil and not real christians. right?
I am sure this post will get me my first warning and I probably shouldn't have written it or posted it but.....
Ummm Augustine has a lot to do with the theology of all Christendom. And I do not excuse Calvin for anything he did. However one must understand the time period and why he did it. You have to know about what was going on before you say statements like CAlvin is a murderer.victoryword said:Everyone is entitled to an opinion
AND THIS IS SUPPOSED TO EXCUSE CALVIN?!!!! How sad. Why aren't you a Roman Catholic or a PAGAN (though Augustine clearly adopted pagan ideas into his theology which were later adopted by Calvin. Add that to Augustine being the founder of the RC church).
No, I mean a good history book.victoryword said:Hahahahahaha! When you say GOOD historical books, do you mean those written from a CALVINIST bias?
Where did Calvin write what you said he did? Cacn you give the direct source? Also quoting one sentence from Calvin or anyone can be take nout of context very easily. I know Calvin did not want Servetus to die but thought it just to have heretics killed.victoryword said:I know enough to say that during Servetus' trial, Calvin wrote: "I hope that the verdict will call for the death penalty." (Walter Nigg, The Heretics (Alfred A. Knopf, Inc., 1962), p. 328.).
no it does not. Again I am not excusing anything he did. But then again why did Calvin hope that Servetus would die? Answer me that.victoryword said:This is the great "reformer" hoping for the death of his enemies. Does not sound like what Jesus said which was, "... Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you." (Matt. 5:44).
Your statement that Calvin is a murderer is not supported. Please support it and then we can speak more. just saying that he wanted Servetus to die is not very good support.victoryword said:Calvin was a MURDERER. The Bible says, "And you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding [continuing] in him" (1 Jn. 3:15, NKJV). There is no historical record that says that Calvin ever repented of this. On the contrary, historical records show that Calvin defended his actions up to the time of his death.
If you reread your own post you will find that you were saying that Augustine was just like Calvin in your eyes. I was saying that your asestment of Augustine is laughable and it is clear you have not read much about Augustine.victoryword said:This, of course in reply to my statement that Calvin followed Augustine, etc. You must have never read Calvin's Institutes. Augustine is quoted so much in that book that one could never deny what I have stated. Calvin writes, "Augustine is so wholly with me, that if I wished to write a confession of my faith, I could do so with all fulness and satisfaction to myself out of his writings."
So ignorance is BLISS! But it ain't MY ignorance ...
WOW! What can I say to that? But do you also say this about the Catholic, Lutheran,and Anglican church traditions? And since your church comes down through the line of one of these what does this say about you and your church?victoryword said:I don't know you. I do know several Calvinists who are dear brothers in Christ. However, from what I have read from Calvinist writings and the fruit seen throughout the centuries, I have no doubts that this is exactly what many Calvinists would do if they had the control Church history is a witness to this.
Huh? Both attack each other. Should i pull out some of the threads from this board where an Armininian attacked a Calvinist. I can but I think I would be wasting my time. you have in your mind that Calvinists are evil and want to burn everyone at the stake.victoryword said:Arminians (and I do not consider myself Arminian though I am much closer to them than to Calvinism) are simply reacting to the attacks brought on by Calvinists.
Your opinion. I most likely think that what you believe is built upon false interpretations of scripture also. But since you think Calvinists are almost all evil then you can see why I would take your opinion about them with a grain of salt.victoryword said:I am sure that Arminians do. Unfortunately Calvinists whole theological system is built on misinterpretation of Scripture and out-of-context Scripture.
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