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Calvinism...."he cannot sin, because he is born of God"

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Egghead

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I wanted to make a thread of this to keep from getting too off track in the other thread.


Lets take a closer look at this passage...


Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
(1Jo 3:9 KJV)
Calvinists...
Based on that passage....

1. Do we still have our sin nature when we are born of God?
2. Can we still ''sin''?



keep in mind CCwoody has made this comment...
You see, whoever is born of God cannot sin.

Also, bulldog answered "no" to the first one in the other thread.

Is this the typical belief from Calvinists here.....that ''no'' we no longer have a sin nature after we are born of God?
 

Egghead

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me said:
Ok, then please tell me, since you no longer have a sin nature, the nature to disobey God, can you still sin?
Can you still disobey God?

These were answered ''yes''

to which I now ask....
So you no longer have the nature to be disobedient, but you still ARE disobedient..

Could you explian to me, in $2 terms please, how that works?
 
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CCWoody

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Eggie....

I have answered your questions and interpreted the passages. You have refused to accept them and the plain language of the scripture in favor of your love that you can still sin and fall away into perdition if you want to. That is fine with me.

The "Official" Reformed position on the Perserverance of the saints is as follows:

The Fifth Main Point of Doctrine

The Perseverance of the Saints

Article 1: The Regenerate Not Entirely Free from Sin
  • Those people whom God according to his purpose calls into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord and regenerates by the Holy Spirit, he also sets free from the reign and slavery of sin, though in this life not entirely from the flesh and from the body of sin.
Article 2: The Believer's Reaction to Sins of Weakness
  • Hence daily sins of weakness arise, and blemishes cling to even the best works of God's people, giving them continual cause to humble themselves before God, to flee for refuge to Christ crucified, to put the flesh to death more and more by the Spirit of supplication and by holy exercises of godliness, and to strain toward the goal of perfection, until they are freed from this body of death and reign with the Lamb of God in heaven.
Article 3: God's Preservation of the Converted
  • Because of these remnants of sin dwelling in them and also because of the temptations of the world and Satan, those who have been converted could not remain standing in this grace if left to their own resources. But God is faithful, mercifully strengthening them in the grace once conferred on them and powerfully preserving them in it to the end.
Article 4: The Danger of True Believers' Falling into Serious Sins
  • Although that power of God strengthening and preserving true believers in grace is more than a match for the flesh, yet those converted are not always so activated and motivated by God that in certain specific actions they cannot by their own fault depart from the leading of grace, be led astray by the desires of the flesh, and give in to them. For this reason they must constantly watch and pray that they may not be led into temptations. When they fail to do this, not onlycan they be carried away by the flesh, the world, and Satan into sins, even serious and outrageous ones, but also by God's just permission they sometimesare so carried away--witness the sad cases, described in Scripture, of David, Peter, and other saints falling into sins.
Article 5: The Effects of Such Serious Sins
  • By such monstrous sins, however, they greatly offend God, deserve the sentence of death, grieve the Holy Spirit, suspend the exercise of faith, severely wound the conscience, and sometimes lose the awareness of grace for a time--until, after they have returned to the way by genuine repentance, God's fatherly face again shines upon them.
Article 6: God's Saving Intervention
  • For God, who is rich in mercy, according to his unchangeable purpose of election does not take his Holy Spirit from his own completely, even when they fall grievously. Neither does he let them fall down so far that they forfeit the grace of adoption and the state of justification, or commit the sin which leads to death (the sin against the Holy Spirit), and plunge themselves, entirely forsaken by him, into eternal ruin.
Article 7: Renewal to Repentance
  • For, in the first place, God preserves in those saints when they fall his imperishable seed from which they have been born again, lest it perish or be dislodged. Secondly, by his Word and Spirit he certainly and effectively renews them to repentance so that they have a heartfelt and godly sorrow for the sins they have committed; seek and obtain, through faith and with a contrite heart, forgiveness in the blood of the Mediator; experience again the grace of a reconciled God; through faith adore his mercies; and from then on more eagerly work out their own salvation with fear and trembling.
Article 8: The Certainty of This Preservation
  • So it is not by their own merits or strength but by God's undeserved mercy that they neither forfeit faith and grace totally nor remain in their downfalls to the end and are lost. With respect to themselves this not only easily could happen, but also undoubtedly would happen; but with respect to God it cannot possibly happen, since his plan cannot be changed, his promise cannot fail, the calling according to his purpose cannot be revoked, the merit of Christ as well as his interceding and preserving cannot be nullified, and the sealing of the Holy Spirit can neither be invalidated nor wiped out.
Article 9: The Assurance of This Preservation
  • Concerning this preservation of those chosen to salvation and concerning the perseverance of true believers in faith, believers themselves can and do become assured in accordance with the measure of their faith, by which they firmly believe that they are and always will remain true and living members of the church, and that they have the forgiveness of sins and eternal life.
Article 10: The Ground of This Assurance
  • Accordingly, this assurance does not derive from some private revelation beyond or outside the Word, but from faith in the promises of God which he has very plentifully revealed in his Word for our comfort, from the testimony of the Holy Spirit testifying with our spirit that we are God's children and heirs (Rom. 8:16-17), and finally from a serious and holy pursuit of a clear conscience and of good works. And if God's chosen ones in this world did not have this well-founded comfort that the victory will be theirs and this reliable guarantee of eternal glory, they would be of all people most miserable.
Article 11: Doubts Concerning This Assurance
  • Meanwhile, Scripture testifies that believers have to contend in this life with various doubts of the flesh and that under severe temptation they do not always experience this full assurance of faith and certainty of perseverance. But God, the Father of all comfort, does not let them be tempted beyond what they can bear, but with the temptation he also provides a way out (1 Cor. 10:13), and by the Holy Spirit revives in them the assurance of their perseverance.
Article 12: This Assurance as an Incentive to Godliness
  • This assurance of perseverance, however, so far from making true believers proud and carnally self-assured, is rather the true root of humility, of childlike respect, of genuine godliness, of endurance in every conflict, of fervent prayers, of steadfastness in crossbearing and in confessing the truth, and of well-founded joy in God. Reflecting on this benefit provides an incentive to a serious and continual practice of thanksgiving and good works, as is evident from the testimonies of Scripture and the examples of the saints.
Article 13: Assurance No Inducement to Carelessness
  • Neither does the renewed confidence of perseverance produce immorality or lack of concern for godliness in those put back on their feet after a fall, but it produces a much greater concern to observe carefully the ways of the Lord which he prepared in advance. They observe these ways in order that by walking in them they may maintain the assurance of their perseverance, lest, by their abuse of his fatherly goodness, the face of the gracious God (for the godly, looking upon his face is sweeter than life, but its withdrawal is more bitter than death) turn away from them again, with the result that they fall into greater anguish of spirit.
Article 14: God's Use of Means in Perseverance
  • And, just as it has pleased God to begin this work of grace in us by the proclamation of the gospel, so he preserves, continues, and completes his work by the hearing and reading of the gospel, by meditation on it, by its exhortations, threats, and promises, and also by the use of the sacraments.
Article 15: Contrasting Reactions to the Teaching of Perseverance
  • This teaching about the perseverance of true believers and saints, and about their assurance of it--a teaching which God has very richly revealed in his Word for the glory of his name and for the comfort of the godly and which he impresses on the hearts of believers--is something which the flesh does not understand, Satan hates, the world ridicules, the ignorant and the hypocrites abuse, and the spirits of error attack. The bride of Christ, on the other hand, has always loved this teaching very tenderly and defended it steadfastly as a priceless treasure; and God, against whom no plan can avail and no strength can prevail, will ensure that she will continue to do this. To this God alone, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, be honor and glory forever. Amen.
Rejection of the Errors

Concerning the Teaching of the Perseverance of the Saints

Having set forth the orthodox teaching, the Synod rejects the errors of those

I

Who teach that the perseverance of true believers is not an effect of election or a gift of God produced by Christ's death, but a condition of the new covenant which man, beforewhat they callhis "peremptory" election and justification, must fulfill by his free will.

For Holy Scripture testifies that perseverance follows from election and is granted to the chosen by virtue of Christ's death, resurrection, and intercession: The chosen obtained it; the others were hardened (Rom. 11:7); likewise, He who did not spare his own son, but gave him up for us all--how will he not, along with him, grant us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? It is Christ Jesus who died--more than that, who was raised--who also sits at the right hand of God, and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? (Rom. 8:32-35).

II

Who teach that God does provide the believer with sufficient strength to persevere and is ready to preserve this strength in him if he performs his duty, but that even with all those things in place which are necessary to persevere in faith and which God is pleased to use to preserve faith, it still always depends on the choice of man's will whether or not he perseveres.

For this view is obviously Pelagian; and though it intends to make men free it makes them sacrilegious. It is against the enduring consensus of evangelical teaching which takes from man all cause for boasting and ascribes the praise for this benefit only to God's grace. It is also against the testimony of the apostle: It is God who keeps us strong to the end, so that we will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Cor. 1:8).

III

Who teach that those who truly believe and have been born again not only can forfeit justifying faith as well as grace and salvation totally and to the end, but also in actual fact do often forfeit them and are lost forever.

For this opinion nullifies the very grace of justification and regeneration as well as the continual preservation by Christ, contrary to the plain words of the apostle Paul: If Christ died for us while we were still sinners, we will therefore much more be saved from God's wrath through him, since we have now been justified by his blood (Rom. 5:8-9); and contrary to the apostle John: No one who is born of God is intent on sin, because God's seed remains in him, nor can he sin, because he has been born of God (1 John 3:9); also contrary to the words of Jesus Christ: I give eternal life to my sheep, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand (John 10: 28-29).

IV

Who teach that those who truly believe and have been born again can commit the sin that leads to death (the sin against the Holy Spirit).

For the same apostle John, after making mention of those who commit the sin that leads to death and forbidding prayer for them (1 John 5: 16-17), immediately adds: We know that anyone born of God does not commit sin (that is, that kind of sin), but the one who was born of God keeps himself safe, and the evil one does not touch him (v. 18).

V

Who teach that apart from a special revelation no one can have the assurance of future perseverance in this life.

For by this teaching the well-founded consolation of true believers in this life is taken away and the doubting of the Romanists is reintroduced into the church. Holy Scripture, however, in many places derives the assurance not from a special and extraordinary revelation but from the marks peculiar to God's children and from God's completely reliable promises. So especially the apostle Paul: Nothing in all creation can separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord (Rom. 8:39); and John: They who obey his commands remain in him and he in them. And this is how we know that he remains in us: by the Spirit he gave us (1 John 3:24).

VI

Who teach that the teaching of the assurance of perseverance and of salvation is by its very nature and character an opiate of the flesh and is harmful to godliness, good morals, prayer, and other holy exercises, but that, on the contrary, to have doubt about this is praiseworthy.

For these people show that they do not know the effective operation of God's grace and the work of the indwelling Holy Spirit, and they contradict the apostle John, who asserts the opposite in plain words: Dear friends, now we are children of God, but what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he is made known, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure (1 John 3:2-3). Moreover, they are refuted by the examples of the saints in both the Old and the New Testament, who though assured of their perseverance and salvation yet were constant in prayer and other exercises of godliness.

VII

Who teach that the faith of those who believe only temporarily does not differ from justifying and saving faith except in duration alone.

For Christ himself in Matthew 13:20ff. and Luke 8:13ff. clearly defines these further differences between temporary and true believers: he says that the former receive the seed on rocky ground, and the latter receive it in good ground, or a good heart; the former have no root, and the latter are firmly rooted; the former have no fruit, and the latter produce fruit in varying measure, with steadfastness, or perseverance.

VIII

Who teach that it is not absurd that a person, after losing his former regeneration, should once again, indeed quite often, be reborn.

For by this teaching they deny the imperishable nature of God's seed by which we are born again, contrary to the testimony of the apostle Peter: Born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable (1 Pet. 1:23).

IX

Who teach that Christ nowhere prayed for an unfailing perseverance of believers in faith.

For they contradict Christ himself when he says: I have prayed for you, Peter, that your faith may not fail (Luke 22:32); and John the gospel writer when he testifies in John 17 that it was not only for the apostles, but also for all those who were to believe by their message that Christ prayed: Holy Father, preserve them in your name (v. 11); and My prayer is not that you take them out of the world, but that you preserve them from the evil one (v. 15).
 
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Egghead

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Article 1: The Regenerate Not Entirely Free from Sin


  • Those people whom God according to his purpose calls into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord and regenerates by the Holy Spirit, he also sets free from the reign and slavery of sin, though in this life not entirely from the flesh and from the body of sin.
Article 2: The Believer's Reaction to Sins of Weakness
  • Hence daily sins of weakness arise, and blemishes cling to even the best works of God's people, giving them continual cause to humble themselves before God, to flee for refuge to Christ crucified, to put the flesh to death more and more by the Spirit of supplication and by holy exercises of godliness, and to strain toward the goal of perfection, until they are freed from this body of death and reign with the Lamb of God in heaven.
Article 3: God's Preservation of the Converted
  • Because of these remnants of sin dwelling in them and also because of the temptations of the world and Satan, those who have been converted could not remain standing in this grace if left to their own resources. But God is faithful, mercifully strengthening them in the grace once conferred on them and powerfully preserving them in it to the end.
Article 4: The Danger of True Believers' Falling into Serious Sins
  • Although that power of God strengthening and preserving true believers in grace is more than a match for the flesh, yet those converted are not always so activated and motivated by God that in certain specific actions they cannot by their own fault depart from the leading of grace, be led astray by the desires of the flesh, and give in to them. For this reason they must constantly watch and pray that they may not be led into temptations. When they fail to do this, not onlycan they be carried away by the flesh, the world, and Satan into sins, even serious and outrageous ones, but also by God's just permission they sometimesare so carried away--witness the sad cases, described in Scripture, of David, Peter, and other saints falling into sins.
Article 5: The Effects of Such Serious Sins
  • By such monstrous sins, however, they greatly offend God, deserve the sentence of death, grieve the Holy Spirit, suspend the exercise of faith, severely wound the conscience, and sometimes lose the awareness of grace for a time--until, after they have returned to the way by genuine repentance, God's fatherly face again shines upon them.

So, you are formally retracting this then?

You see, whoever is born of God cannot sin.
 
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CCWoody

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Egghead said:
So, you are formally retracting this then?

No, Egghead, I'm not. You have refused my interpretation and explaination. You are free to make whatever you want of it. Just be warned that a willful refusal to accept another's position and then misrepresent it by omission is still BEARING FALSE WITNESS. So, do whatever it is that you want to do. Keep this infatuation with this perception that the saints can sin up a storm.



I happen to believe the word of God.
1Jo 3:8-9 GB

(8) He that comitteth sinne, is of the deuil: for the deuill sinneth from the beginning: for this purpose was made manifest that Sonne of God, that he might loose the workes of the deuil.
(9) Whosoeuer is borne of God, sinneth not: for his seede remaineth in him, neither can hee sinne, because he is borne of God.

So, my testimony has been and continues to be exactly this as it pertains to 1 John 3:9 "whoever is born of God cannot sin."


However, given that the preceeding verse states exactly that he that committs sin is of the devil I have a question for you?

As it pertains to 1 John 3:9 can and do you commit the kinds of sin mentioned in the verse? I have freely give you MY testimony. Do me the favor of giving me yours.
 
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Egghead

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CCWoody said:
No, Egghead, I'm not. You have refused my interpretation and explaination. You are free to make whatever you want of it. Just be warned that a willful refusal to accept another's position and then misrepresent it by omission is still BEARING FALSE WITNESS. So, do whatever it is that you want to do. Keep this infatuation with this perception that the saints can sin up a storm.
What Im trying to figure out is what you meant.

You clearly stated "whoever is born of God cannot sin"

Yet your previous post shows otherwise.
Why the attitude?
You made a comment, now youre showing me something that conflicts with that comment.




I happen to believe the word of God.
1Jo 3:8-9 GB

(8) He that comitteth sinne, is of the deuil: for the deuill sinneth from the beginning: for this purpose was made manifest that Sonne of God, that he might loose the workes of the deuil.
(9) Whosoeuer is borne of God, sinneth not: for his seede remaineth in him, neither can hee sinne, because he is borne of God.
fine.
Then explain from your first post how this is possible.
You state we cannot sin, yet your first post shows that.....
Article 1: The Regenerate Not Entirely Free from Sin
  • Those people whom God according to his purpose calls into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord and regenerates by the Holy Spirit, he also sets free from the reign and slavery of sin, though in this life not entirely from the flesh and from the body of sin.
Do you not see the contradiction there?

So, my testimony has been and continues to be exactly this as it pertains to 1 John 3:9 "whoever is born of God cannot sin."
And how does it pertain to it?
What is being discussed in 1 John 3:9?
Sin?




However, given that the preceeding verse states exactly that he that committs sin is of the devil I have a question for you?
So, then whoever wrote the articles in your first post is of the devil I can assume? :scratch:
It does say...
Article 1:The Regenerate Not Entirely Free from Sin

......though in this life not entirely from the flesh and from the body of sin


very confusing.


As it pertains to 1 John 3:9 can and do you commit the kinds of sin mentioned in the verse? I have freely give you MY testimony. Do me the favor of giving me yours.

given the context of the WHOLE NT, no we are not free of sin......we are free from LIVING in sin.
 
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CCWoody

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As it pertains to 1 John 3:9 can and do you commit the kinds of sin mentioned in the verse? I have freely give you MY testimony. Do me the favor of giving me yours. - CCWoody

Egghead said:
no we are not free of sin......
Thank you. Enjoy your thread.
1Jo 3:8-9 GB

(8) He that comitteth sinne, is of the deuil: for the deuill sinneth from the beginning: for this purpose was made manifest that Sonne of God, that he might loose the workes of the deuil.
(9) Whosoeuer is borne of God, sinneth not: for his seede remaineth in him, neither can hee sinne, because he is borne of God.


 
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Egghead

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CCWoody said:
As it pertains to 1 John 3:9 can and do you commit the kinds of sin mentioned in the verse? I have freely give you MY testimony. Do me the favor of giving me yours. - CCWoody


Thank you. Enjoy your thread.
1Jo 3:8-9 GB

(8) He that comitteth sinne, is of the deuil: for the deuill sinneth from the beginning: for this purpose was made manifest that Sonne of God, that he might loose the workes of the deuil.
(9) Whosoeuer is borne of God, sinneth not: for his seede remaineth in him, neither can hee sinne, because he is borne of God.


thanks for you participation..

taken from your own post...

Article 1: The Regenerate Not Entirely Free from Sin


  • Those people whom God according to his purpose calls into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord and regenerates by the Holy Spirit, he also sets free from the reign and slavery of sin, though in this life not entirely from the flesh and from the body of sin.
Sounds exactly like what *I* believe, to be honest.
 
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Egghead

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CCWoody said:
As it pertains to 1 John 3:9 can and do you commit the kinds of sin mentioned in the verse? I have freely give you MY testimony. Do me the favor of giving me yours. - CCWoody


Thank you. Enjoy your thread.
1Jo 3:8-9 GB

(8) He that comitteth sinne, is of the deuil: for the deuill sinneth from the beginning: for this purpose was made manifest that Sonne of God, that he might loose the workes of the deuil.
(9) Whosoeuer is borne of God, sinneth not: for his seede remaineth in him, neither can hee sinne, because he is borne of God.



Guess old Paul was ''of the devil'' :(


I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself with the mind serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
(Rom 7:25 EMTV)
 
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Egghead

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DaveS said:
'born of God'.. interesting phrasing. We are born of our parents aren't we? Does it simply mean 'if you believe then you are free from sin'?
He is the propitiation for our sins, but that doesnt mean we are sinless.
If we sin, we have an advocate in Jesus.


This seems to get presented a lot....
1Jo 3:9 No one who has been born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
to which I get a runaround.
they keep saying ''I explained this already'' but I never actaully see the explaination....only some longwinded post that seemingly says we DO still sin.......and all the while calvinists are presenting the verse about (go back thru this thread and see what I mean)

read Posts 8 and 9.
THAT is confusion.

They post...
and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

And yet John, in the same letter says IF WE SIN we have an advocate...leaving me to believe that ''cannot sin'' means habitually as one of them put it.....but definetly NOT ''sin free''
 
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CCWoody

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Egghead said:
And yet John, in the same letter says IF WE SIN we have an advocate...leaving me to believe that ''cannot sin'' means habitually as one of them put it.....but definetly NOT ''sin free''

And the funny thing is that you cannot see how that completely destroys your doctrine that we can fall away into Perdition.
 
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Bulldog

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Egghead - about Romans 7.

there is usually a reason people cant just take Romans 7 ''as is''.

Some apostolics, the instant sanctification types, usually dont either.

I'm not an "instant sanctification type", and I took the same interpetation you did (even as a Calvinist) until I saw the exegetical reasons that Paul is not referring to his post-conversion state.

First of all sarx ("flesh") is a term Paul normally uses to refer to the unregenrate man, something that is too weak to overcome sin. (and by the way, the "flesh" [sarx] is not evil in and of itself). Romans 7 refers to somone who is still bound by sin, "captive to sin" (7:25), not freed from it and "dead to sin" as the regernate man is. (Romans 6) Paul does say "I am", but it is the emphatic ego eimi too emphasize this bondage to sin. (I believe that this is the only place Paul uses ego eimi) Verese 14-25 are an exposition of the previous verses which speak of the unregerante man. Paul is typifying the Pharisee of the time, attempting to follow the law perfectly but unable to do so. (as seen in verse 25, Christ is the relef for this legalism)
 
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