Calvinism...."he cannot sin, because he is born of God"

[Godzchild]

Im trying to keep up in 4 or 5 threads at once, with 6+ posters at times all saying something.
Its confounding enough trying to keep track of each detail, then having those like cygnus come in and pull what he did to disrupt didnt help either.

Can you understand that we are all in the same boat having to keep up with threads and posts etc? Sometimes it can get quite confusing and even frustrating for the best of us. I post on several boards at once - and have about 4 windows open LOL Maybe I should focus?

but try to make sure Im really attacking you personally and not just the doctrine.
We ARE here discussing doctrine, arent we?

Yes we are but the underlying tone is what makes it an attack. When one makes fun of someone, which what you seemed to do, one can only assume that it's them you're making fun of and not their doctrine.

You also need to understand that someone's doctrine can feel like it is a part of them, and so every precaution needs to be taken so that the person doesn't feel like you're attacking them. Most people have come to their doctrines based on their life - I'm one such person.

However, I actually am not a calvinist, at the moment I'm trying to find out exactly which theology my beliefs fit into...I didn't even know what a calvinist was until recently, and if you look on the 'ask a calvinist' board you will see a post made by me asking about their doctrine. You will see there that I havent' actually come to a conclusion yet. Debate is the way I learn - that is why I'm here. But debate without attacking is better

 

[CCWoody]

However, I actually am not a calvinist, at the moment I'm trying to find out exactly which theology my beliefs fit into...I didn't even know what a calvinist was until recently, and if you look on the 'ask a calvinist' board you will see a post made by me asking about their doctrine. You will see there that I havent' actually come to a conclusion yet. Debate is the way I learn - that is why I'm here. But debate without attacking is better

Resistance is futile. You will make an excellent drone. See my signature.

Besides, we have more fun anyway.

 

[Godzchild]

Sshhhhhhhhhhhhhhh you!!!

 

[Egghead]

Quite the contrary. It is not merely His work on the cross that I was referring to, but also His imputation of Christ's righteousness to me, whereby I am declared just before God. God is not an "indian forgiver." Once justified, surely glorified.

no Hes not.
But the text does show that you can spit in His face and give back the gift.

One who is born again would never presume upon God's grace to the extent of doing such a thing.

In your humble opinion.

Read more carefully. My point was that in the context of the sermon on the mount (where speaking evil against your brother and looking lustfully are likened to murder and adultery respectively) the notion of God's forgiveness of a multitude of sins per day suddenly becomes much more relevant and important. If such a thing as quantities of sins were sufficient to "unjustify" us, I daresay many if not all here would be in serious trouble.

My point is not the number of sins per day, but the darkening of the mind and soul that caused them.

Repentance is a fruit of faith. I am saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone to the glory of God alone.

and as long as you endure and do not apostate yourself, you will be fine

True believers will not lose their salvation. Once justified, surely glorified.

no one can ''lose'' salvation.
One can spit in the face of the Lord though and toss the gift back into His lap

 

[frumanchu]

We are told that we are sealed by the Holy Spirit and given an earnest guarantee of our salvation (Eph 1:13-14)...we are told that He is able to keep us from stumbling and to present us blameless before the presence of His glory (Jude 24)...we are told that He is at work within us both to will and to do (Phil 2:13)...we are told that He is able to preserve us and deliver us from every evil work (2 Tim 4:18)...we are told that those He justified will be glorified (Rom 8:30)...we are told He will confirm us to the end (1 Cor 1:8)...we are told we are sealed for the day of redemption (Eph 4:30)...we are told we are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation (1 Pet 1:5)...we are told that whatever is born of God overcomes the world (1 John 5:4)...we are told it is God who give the increase (1 Cor 3:6)...we are told we are preserved in Jesus Christ (Jude 1)...we are told He is faithful to those He calls and will preserve them spirit, soul and body (1 Thess 5:23-24)...we are told none shall snatch His sheep out of His hand (John 10:28)...we are told He is able to put His fear in our hearts so that we will not depart from Him (Jer 32:40).

"They whom God hath accepted in his Beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace; but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved." (WCF, XVII, i)

 

[Egghead]

Ive seen this list many times bro

None of it contradicts that WE can walk away.
WE can spit in His face.
WE can throw the free gift right back in His face.

All of your passages are true as written.
Youre just appying them to an instance they dont apply to....the willful apostate.

We are told that we are sealed by the Holy Spirit and given an earnest guarantee of our salvation (Eph 1:13-14)...we are told that He is able to keep us from stumbling and to present us blameless before the presence of His glory (Jude 24)...we are told that He is at work within us both to will and to do (Phil 2:13)...we are told that He is able to preserve us and deliver us from every evil work (2 Tim 4:18)...we are told that those He justified will be glorified (Rom 8:30)...we are told He will confirm us to the end (1 Cor 1:8)...we are told we are sealed for the day of redemption (Eph 4:30)...we are told we are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation (1 Pet 1:5)...we are told that whatever is born of God overcomes the world (1 John 5:4)...we are told it is God who give the increase (1 Cor 3:6)...we are told we are preserved in Jesus Christ (Jude 1)...we are told He is faithful to those He calls and will preserve them spirit, soul and body (1 Thess 5:23-24)...we are told none shall snatch His sheep out of His hand (John 10:28)...we are told He is able to put His fear in our hearts so that we will not depart from Him (Jer 32:40).

"They whom God hath accepted in his Beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace; but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved." (WCF, XVII, i)

 

[CCWoody]

WE can spit in His face.

Please don't include anyone but yourself in your insistence that you can spit in God's face. I don't want to have anything to do with it and I personally resent the assertion that I can do such a horrible thing.

 

[frumanchu]

None of it contradicts that WE can walk away. WE can spit in His face. WE can throw the free gift right back in His face. All of your passages are true as written. Youre just appying them to an instance they dont apply to....the willful apostate.

It says clearly that He will preserve us...and yet you insist that He can and does fail to do so as believers "spit in His face" and lose their salvation.

No, these verses quite clearly and quite loudly refute your position, "bro."

Once justified, surely glorified.

Soli Deo Gloria

 

[Egghead]

It says clearly that He will preserve us...and yet you insist that He can and does fail to do so as believers "spit in His face" and lose their salvation.

No, these verses quite clearly and quite loudly refute your position, "bro."

Once justified, surely glorified.

Soli Deo Gloria

well, ''bro''... if I do as some do and make the warning say ANYTHING other than what they do say , then surely the promises stand alone.

Your verses, as they usually do, only show what happens to the faithful who do not apostate themselves.

We dont accept only those passages we WANT to see, we accept the WHOLE word of God to see the truth.

Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering;
for he is faithful that promised
And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth,
there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy,
who hath trodden under foot the Son of God,
and hath counted the blood of the covenant,
wherewith he was sanctified,
an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
(Heb 10:23-31 KJV)

along with the others.

yes, when we refuse to accept the warnings, those promises look quite different.

 

[Egghead]

Please don't include anyone but yourself in your insistence that you can spit in God's face. I don't want to have anything to do with it and I personally resent the assertion that I can do such a horrible thing.

And its great you feel this way.
But lets not pretend that the Hebrews werent apostating themselves over persecution just because WE cannot fathom the instance in which it may happen.

 

[frumanchu]

Egghead, would you please kindly give us your definition of "apostasy."

 

[Egghead]

Egghead, would you please kindly give us your definition of "apostasy."

I think this is clear enough;

Apostasy
APOS'TASY, n. [Gr. a defection, to depart.]
1. An abandonment of what one has professed; a total desertion, or departure from one's faith or religion.

seeing this....

Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering;

for he is faithful that promised

And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth,
there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy,
who hath trodden under foot the Son of God,
and hath counted the blood of the covenant,
wherewith he was sanctified,
an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
(Heb 10:23-31 KJV)

....then knowing that the writer is talking to a group of people who were being persecuted by their own to reject their faith and return to Judaism.....I am quite sure that willfully renouncing ones faith in Christ and turning to another religion would constitute apostacy.

Id say that just the renouncing part would be enough tho.

BUT.....there are plenty of other passages with warnings in them to persevere, endure, etc.

 

[frumanchu]

So apostasy is renouncing the faith you once proclaimed, correct?

 

[CCWoody]

And its great you feel this way.
But lets not pretend that the Hebrews werent apostating themselves over persecution just because WE cannot fathom the instance in which it may happen.

It is not a "feeling." Again, why do you insist upon trivializing the work of God in my life?

Why do you insist upon looking at "instances," circumstances of human life as if they are more than God can handle? Are the hurdles in you life bigger than your God or is your God bigger than the hurdles in your life? Is the Spirit of God not with a man even in death? Can such a man under the protection of the Holy Spirit call Jesus execrable?

I know the answer, btw, experientially. I am a man abundantly blessed to know what the grace of God is like in the face of a violent death. I hear your words and they are empty to me. They offer no comfort. I read the words of God and they provide an immense comfort. Are you looking to your own strength to get you through the day or do you plead with God for the sustaining hands which can lose none?

No guilt in life; no fear in death. This is the power of Christ in me.

Perhaps the very truths which you deny, that we Calvinists affirm, are a faith sustaining grace from God. The scrolls of the army of blessed martyrs is rich with we Predestinarians, fully trusting that God will bless and keep them even until the end.

 

[Egghead]

So apostasy is renouncing the faith you once proclaimed, correct?

That surely is one way to go about it.

Lets NOT draw the conclusion that Im stating that there is no other way.
Im not as scripture doesnt give a complete list of ''ways to apostate'', does it?

That is one manner, yes.
Are there more, most likely.

 

[frumanchu]

Is is possible for someone to profess faith without actually possessing it? Or even to deceive themselves into believing they have true faith when they do not?

 

[Egghead]

It is not a "feeling." Again, why do you insist upon trivializing the work of God in my life?

Well, firstly because as is being discussed elsewhere, those ''tares'' who were never ''born again'' at all were most likely convinced they werent tares at all but children of God as WE proclaim.

We can look at the tare and know he was never saved supposedly.
But how on earth can WE prove that we arent just as deluded into thinking WE are saved any more than he was?

The tare who appeared to be wheat who ended up walking away looked just as real, and said he was born again just like we do and most likely at some point in his life would have felt just as shocked about my words as you were.

Im not trivializing anything.

Im stating that WE have a choice to obey or not to obey.
We have a choice to follow or not.
WE have the choice keep the free gift and have a living relationship with our God.......or cast it back in His face and walk away.

Some did and do spit in His face.
That you or I cannot fathom the scenario in which this might happen doesnt make it any less a fact.

Why do you insist upon looking at "instances," circumstances of human life as if they are more than God can handle?

God????
Who said God?

I never said God couldnt handle anything. YOU twist my intent.
I say MAN is able to make the choice GOD CREATED HIM TO MAKE !

Are the hurdles in you life bigger than your God or is your God bigger than the hurdles in your life?

irrelevant to this issue.
Any of us can walk away from this faith.

Is the Spirit of God not with a man even in death? Can such a man under the protection of the Holy Spirit call Jesus execrable?

see above

I know the answer, btw, experientially. I am a man abundantly blessed to know what the grace of God is like in the face of a violent death. I hear your words and they are empty to me. They offer no comfort. I read the words of God and they provide an immense comfort. Are you looking to your own strength to get you through the day or do you plead with God for the sustaining hands which can lose none?

looking to my own strength?
No

Accepting that God gave me a choice to be obedient to Him and to maintain this relationship with Him as far as *I* am able?
Absolutely.

Believing that *IF* I were to toss this free gift back at Him that there is no more sacrifice remaining for my sins?
Of course.

No guilt in life;

That one is scary.
Of course we repent and move on if we err, but I cannot fathom the mind that does not feel ''guilt'' for its sin.

Perhaps the very truths which you deny, that we Calvinists affirm, are a faith sustaining grace from God.

Perhaps not.

The scrolls of the army of blessed martyrs is rich with we Predestinarians, fully trusting that God will bless and keep them even until the end.

its not the trusting God part that is worrysome

Its the ''my flesh sins, not my spirit, so Im good to go even if I maim and torture a 1000 times a day'' that makes me nervous.

 

[Egghead]

Is is possible for someone to profess faith without actually possessing it? Or even to deceive themselves into believing they have true faith when they do not?

yes sir.
That is another case altogether.

I worked with a man who came into work one day and said ''hey, Im a christian now, I got saved''

I gave him the benefit of the doubt.

Right up until he came in and told me how his wifes female friend has passed out drunk on his couch and he had felt up her breasts while she was unconscious.
That made me start watching him a bit closer.

His "salvation'' lasted about 2 months tops.

On a brighter note, his newfound ''religion'' made him quite a few sales in his new scAMWAY business.

 

[frumanchu]

yes sir. That is another case altogether.

Whoa. Stop there.

HOW is that another case altogether? I didn't see the weight of necessity in the definition for apostasy that one had to be a true believer. Apostasy is abandoning one's profession. Your breast-groping buddy apostasized, egghead. He professed faith in Christ (though ostensibly never possessing true faith) and then later abandoned what he professed, departing from that faith.

He is the textbook definition of an apostate...and he was never saved to begin with.

See, you are forcing the weight of salvation as a necessity upon the definition of apostasy when it is not so.

Furthermore, you assume that the very fact that warnings exist in Scripture necessarily means that true believers fail to heed those warnings, insisting that if they don't then the warnings are insincere. It is a false dichotomy because the truth is that the warnings serve as the means by which true believers are preserved in their faith. The warnings are only fully effective when mixed with faith in believers (Heb 4:2). To those without true faith they literally fall on deaf ears. They may be heeded in a superficial manner, but it profits them little with respect to their eternal destiny.

Apostasy is real. True believers never apostasize.

Once justified, surely glorified.

 

[Egghead]

Whoa. Stop there.

HOW is that another case altogether?

I didn't see the weight of necessity in the definition for apostasy that one had to be a true believer. Apostasy is abandoning one's profession. Your breast-groping buddy apostasized, egghead. He professed faith in Christ (though ostensibly never possessing true faith) and then later abandoned what he professed, departing from that faith.

Becuase I know this man personally.
His ''conversion'' was fake from the beginning as he never had ANY intent on changing.

It was when he found out that he his life HAD to change that it it became apparent that he was not ''really'' a christian.

Not the same at all from one who perseveres and DOES walk the walk for years then apostates.

And He spoke to them many things in parables, saying: "Behold, a sower went out to sow.

And as he sowed, some seed fell alongside the road; and the birds came and devoured them.

But others fell on the stony ground, where it did not have much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth.
But when the sun rose, it was scorched, and because it had no root, it withered away.

But others fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up and choked them out.
(Mat 13:3-7 EMTV)

These NEVER became believers and thus were NOT true apostates.
They NEVER converted at all.
Theyre little conversion game is apparent because they never really change or show any fruit....they desert before they could even bear fruit.

These were the true converts...

But others fell on good ground and it was yielding fruit: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
(Mat 13:8 EMTV)

These are the ones who apostate.

Hebrews speaks to those who WERE sanctified partakers of the Holy Spirit and purposefully walked away to avoid persecution.

He is the textbook definition of an apostate...and he was never saved to begin with.

Wrong, he is a textbook fake.
He NEVER intended on changing. That is what exposed him as a fake

Apostasy is real.

yes it is

True believers never apostasize.

wrong...and the warnings make that clear