Calvinism, explained.

[EmSw]

I did not say that, and you KNOW I did not say that. You just want to accuse others falsely, and stir up strife.

Why?

Stop it, would you? Either you believe God's omniscience has other possibilities or it doesn't. If you want to add something meaningful, please let it rip. But please, for the 80th time, respond to the post and not the person.

 

[tulipbee]

LOL!
You have to have a plan before you can have knowledge of it, right?
What of everything was there to know before everything was created?

If man fuss that the egg came before the chicken then were not thinking things right. Its better for them to just believe what the bible say anyway no matter what. Its dumb for arminians to ask us which come first, the chicken or the egg? Course calvinism isn't going to answer that but the arminians wll laugh at our face while they can't answer that themselves. Crooked arminians

 

[nobdysfool]

Stop it, would you? Either you believe God's omniscience has other possibilities or it doesn't. If you want to add something meaningful, please let it rip. But please, for the 80th time, respond to the post and not the person.

When I am misrepresented and accused falsely, that's personal. You have done that on more than one occasion, and now try to hide behind the rules, when called on it. If you don't want it to be personal, stop making it personal.

Capice?

 

[EmSw]

When I am misrepresented and accused falsely, that's personal. You have done that on more than one occasion, and now try to hide behind the rules, when called on it. If you don't want it to be personal, stop making it personal.

Capice?

Let's see if you will answer this, so no misrepresentation occurs.

Do you believe God's eternal omniscience can change?

When did God not know what would happen so that He had to plan it, or have other possibilities?

When did God have other possibilities, before or after His omniscience?

 

[nobdysfool]

Let's see if you will answer this, so no misrepresentation occurs.

Do you believe God's eternal omniscience can change?

Since omniscience is "all-knowing", or knowing all, by definition it cannot change. What's yer point?

When did God not know what would happen so that He had to plan it, or have other possibilities?

A meaningless question. His knowing of all includes how it will take place, why it will take place, exactly when it will take place, and what the outcome of it will be, including what (if any) direct part He will play in it.

When did God have other possibilities, before or after His omniscience?

Do you have trouble wrapping your mind around the idea that God could know with equal certainty how things would pay out IF He had done something a different way? That He knows how it would happen, even though He did not choose to allow that to happen?

 

[GillDouglas]

"Lord, you have searched me and known me!
You know when I sit down and when I rise up;
you discern my thoughts from afar.
You search out my path and my lying down
and are acquainted with all my ways.
Even before a word is on my tongue,
behold, O Lord, you know it altogether.
You hem me in, behind and before,
and lay your hand upon me.
Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
it is high; I cannot attain it." (Psalm 139:1-6)

"For you formed my inward parts;
you knitted me together in my mother's womb.
I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made.
Wonderful are your works;
my soul knows it very well.
My frame was not hidden from you,
when I was being made in secret,
intricately woven in the depths of the earth.
Your eyes saw my unformed substance;
in your book were written, every one of them,
the days that were formed for me,
when as yet there was none of them." (Psalm 139:13-16)

 

[EmSw]

Perhaps you should start with this very simple rudimentary example I'll leave you with and then go away for a while and think about it.

Come back when you've grown up a little.

My rudimentary knowledge assures me that God's omniscience NEVER changes, NEVER any other possibilities. It just so happens that child-like faith cannot be persuaded by grown men who can only think naturally.

God knew that Adam and Eve would sin if He planted the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, told them not to eat of it, and placed the serpent in the garden to tempt them.

Sure enough they looked the tree over, listened to the serpent, and ate of the tree.

Let's not use 'IF', but rather, 'WHEN'. You make it sound like God was sitting around not knowing what to do. IF He did this, then this would happen, or IF He did this, something else would happen. His eternal omniscience always knew what He did, and the consequences of it. There weren't two ways about it; God is sure.

They did it because God created the exact paradigm that He knew would produce a certain result - a result that He knew would happen if He created that exact paradigm.

You with me?

You make it sound like there was a time God didn't know what He created or how it would affect mankind. You keep giving God a beginning, the One who has no beginning nor end. Until you raise your understanding up to heaven, you will always be stuck in this 'natural' paradigm you've created.

If God had chosen a different paradigm then what He knew would happen in the first paradigm would not happen.

No Adam and Eve = no fall of mankind.
No tree of the knowledge of good and evil = no fall of mankind.
No serpent to tempt them = no fall of mankind.
No fruit on the tree = no fall of mankind.
No eating of the fruit = no fall of mankind.

You with me?

What do you mean 'if God had chosen a different paradigm'? God cannot choose against what He knows. Either God knew from eternity how things would be, or He there was a time He didn't know and had to choose from different possibilities.

If you believe God's omniscience isn't eternal, why not come out and say it Marvin? If there was a time God didn't know what would happen, and He had to choose because He didn't know, preach it from the housetops. I don't think I've met anyone who believes God's omniscience wasn't eternal, but there's a first time for everything.

God knows all possibilities and God knows all things that will actually happen.

He knows all things that will actually happen precisely because He is the one who creates the exact paradigm where an exact possibility will become a reality.

You with me?

You are stuck on a God with temporal knowledge. What's temporal can change, what's eternal cannot.

Go away and apply that to the statement from the Lord that I gave you about what the various cities would do in certain circumstances and what they would not do if those circumstances did not exist.

After you've got that straight - apply it as best you can to everyday occurrences and how they might change if there were different paradigms in place.

You with me?

Maybe you see other possibilities in this passage also -

John 8:36
If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Is there a possibility the Son cannot make you free? Even if the Son makes you free, but the possibility exists you shall not be free indeed, how would you explain this? Do you think this possibility exists?

God has and always has had a literally infinite number of puzzle pieces to work with. He creates them as He will and He places them as He will.

He does so by sending forth His Word to accomplish what He wills.

All things exist in and through His Word.

".....one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him." 1 Corinthians 8:6

"... from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever." Romans 11:36

"... He is before all things, and in Him all things consist." Colossians 1:17

You with me?

Perhaps eternal omniscience escapes you. There can only be ONE WAY things are, and that is according to His eternal omniscience. No other possibilities exist - NONE!

God's decree predestines all that the Word does.

"So shall My word be which goes forth from My mouth;
It shall not return to Me empty,
Without accomplishing what I desire,
And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it." Isaiah 55:11

You with me?

Maybe there is a possibility God's word does not succeed in the matter for which He sent it. How can you be sure Marvin; you believe in other possibilities.

Let's look at more of Isaiah 55, shall we?

8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Why does God's word and not return void? We have the answer in verse 10, if one would just read and understand it. His word is like the rain which comes down and waters the earth. His word brings forth buds and gives seed to the sower and bread to the eater.

This is what it is means, Marvin. What does God desire? He desires His word to water the earth, to bring forth bud and seed, and finally, to give bread to the sower. And, His word will accomplish this.

Nothing is said about predestination, nor decrees; man puts this in to satisfy his doctrine, which is what you have done.

Now one last thing and I'll let you go away and think on these very rudimentary things from scripture.

Notice the highlight portions from the Isaiah statement about the decree of God.

Notice that God does not send forth His (omnipresent) Word without a "plan".

He predestines a certain result for everything that His Word does.

And note again that His Word is what does everything.

"In Him we live and move and have our being." Acts 17:28

All really basic stuff, I know. But you seem to be missing some of the basics.

We'll undoubtedly talk again if you work on these things. If you refuse to learn - we will be done.

You with me?

Here again, you've inserted 'decree', 'predestination', and 'plan' into God's holy word. Why not just take God's word for what it says and believe it? God's word comes from heaven, it waters, it brings forth the bud and seed, and finally gives bread to the sower. There you have it; the true meaning God intended in Isaiah 55.

Of course this doesn't please everyone. They want to add to God's word and push it on others.

 

[EmSw]

Since omniscience is "all-knowing", or knowing all, by definition it cannot change. What's yer point?

So NF, does this mean God did not have alternate possibilities if His omniscience cannot change? Or, do you believe He had other possibilities and could change?

A meaningless question. His knowing of all includes how it will take place, why it will take place, exactly when it will take place, and what the outcome of it will be, including what (if any) direct part He will play in it.

Is this sure and steadfast? Are there any other possibilities this could be different?

Do you have trouble wrapping your mind around the idea that God could know with equal certainty how things would pay out IF He had done something a different way? That He knows how it would happen, even though He did not choose to allow that to happen?

If things could play out in a different way from His eternal omniscience, then He wasn't sure what He knew from eternity.

You keep saying IF. God's word is not a fairy tale, where things can turn out differently in a given situation. God's word is sure and rock solid. There is no IF with God. Perhaps you think there is an IF in God's salvation of mankind. God could have a grey female donkey with two missing teeth hang upside down and have four rabbits eat rotten worms beneath it in order to save mankind. Was this a possibility in God's plan?

When you start adding possibilities with God's eternal omniscience, man can dream up a million things God could have done. Man becomes delusional, and his mind starts to wander from God's truth.

 

[EmSw]

"Lord, you have searched me and known me!
You know when I sit down and when I rise up;
you discern my thoughts from afar.
You search out my path and my lying down
and are acquainted with all my ways.
Even before a word is on my tongue,
behold, O Lord, you know it altogether.
You hem me in, behind and before,
and lay your hand upon me.
Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
it is high; I cannot attain it." (Psalm 139:1-6)

"For you formed my inward parts;
you knitted me together in my mother's womb.
I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made.
Wonderful are your works;
my soul knows it very well.
My frame was not hidden from you,
when I was being made in secret,
intricately woven in the depths of the earth.
Your eyes saw my unformed substance;
in your book were written, every one of them,
the days that were formed for me,
when as yet there was none of them." (Psalm 139:13-16)

Hello Doug.

So, do you think there are other possibilities than what is written in Psalms?

What some seem to fail to understand is that truth is steadfast and cannot have the possibility of change. Since God's omniscience is truth, there can be no other possibilities, or else truth is changed.

 

[sdowney717]

"Lord, you have searched me and known me!
You know when I sit down and when I rise up;
you discern my thoughts from afar.
You search out my path and my lying down
and are acquainted with all my ways.
Even before a word is on my tongue,
behold, O Lord, you know it altogether.
You hem me in, behind and before,
and lay your hand upon me.
Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
it is high; I cannot attain it." (Psalm 139:1-6)

"For you formed my inward parts;
you knitted me together in my mother's womb.
I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made.
Wonderful are your works;
my soul knows it very well.
My frame was not hidden from you,
when I was being made in secret,
intricately woven in the depths of the earth.
Your eyes saw my unformed substance;
in your book were written, every one of them,
the days that were formed for me,
when as yet there was none of them." (Psalm 139:13-16)

Known to God from ETERNITY are all His works.

Yet some will say the future is uncertain to God as if God does not know past, present and future.
But God says of Himself,

8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

 

[EmSw]

Known to God from ETERNITY are all His works.

Yet some will say the future is uncertain to God as if God does not know past, present and future.
But God says of Himself,

8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

I see we are in agreement sdowney. There is nothing uncertain with God. Things will happen just as He knew before eternity, with no possible alternatives.

 

[sdowney717]

I see we are in agreement sdowney. There is nothing uncertain with God. Things will happen just as He knew before eternity, with no possible alternatives.

To consider as well, Acts 15, when the apostles and church come together it was said at the Jerusalem council,

Acts 15
14 Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name.
15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:

16 ‘After this I will return
And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down;
I will rebuild its ruins,
And I will set it up;
17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
Says the Lord who does all these things.’

18 “Known to God from eternity are all His works.

So we read God visited the gentiles to take out from them certain ones to become His people to bear the name of Christ as Christians. And it so happened as according to the word of the Lord, that of the Gentiles some the Lord will call to Christ, by His name they will be the called of Christ.

And we also read that God's works are known to Him from the before the beginning of the foundation of this universe, from eternity past, a very long time ago.

To draw a conclusion from the text, a proof on God foreknowing His people whom He has chosen to be saved, so hence predestined according to His own election of them according to foreknowledge, foreknowing them in love, it states this,

'For we are His workmanship'

Ephesians 2

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

If all God's works are known to Him from eternity past, from the beginning beforehand, before the creation of the creature, and we are His workmanship, then we who believe are of His foreknown works, so then predestined. And this can not be any other way.

 

[EmSw]

To consider as well, Acts 15, when the apostles and church come together it was said at the Jerusalem council,

Acts 15
14 Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name.
15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:

16 ‘After this I will return
And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down;
I will rebuild its ruins,
And I will set it up;
17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
Says the Lord who does all these things.’

18 “Known to God from eternity are all His works.

So we read God visited the gentiles to take out from them certain ones to become His people to bear the name of Christ as Christians. And it so happened as according to the word of the Lord, that of the Gentiles some the Lord will call to Christ, by His name they will be the called of Christ.

And we also read that God's works are known to Him from the before the beginning of the foundation of this universe, from eternity past, a very long time ago.

To draw a conclusion from the text, a proof on God foreknowing His people whom He has chosen to be saved, so hence predestined according to His own election of them according to foreknowledge, foreknowing them in love, it states this,

'For we are His workmanship'

Ephesians 2

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

If all God's works are known to Him from eternity past, from the beginning beforehand, before the creation of the creature, and we are His workmanship, then we who believe are of His foreknown works, so then predestined. And this can not be any other way.

Thank you sdowney, some believe there are possibilities things can be different.

 

[GillDouglas]

Hello Doug.

So, do you think there are other possibilities than what is written in Psalms?

What some seem to fail to understand is that truth is steadfast and cannot have the possibility of change. Since God's omniscience is truth, there can be no other possibilities, or else truth is changed.

Hey Wayne,

All that He has established will come to pass.

 

[Marvin Knox]

God doesn't know if other possibilities exist.

God says otherwise - as the scriptures have clearly shown us. Your ignoring what He has said on the subject will not change the fact that it is true. It's being true will not be changed by you not believing it either.

He has always known all possibilities. He has also always known exactly what He would do in this age from among those possibilities.

God knows, and always has known, all things.

All we really need to know is that those things that He knows will happen only happen because He says they happen. Once He says they will happen - they have been predestined to happen by the sending forth of His unchanging Word.

You don't need to understand a doctrine completely to believe it.

When the scriptures say two things (that He knows possibilities and also knows certainties for instance) we need to believe both things and not just pick one because we don't fully understand how they can dovetail together.

Calvin, the WCF, and I, for instance - don't have the luxury of picking and choosing what portions of the scriptures we incorporate into our systematic theology.

That seems to be what you are doing here.

God isn't altogether like us. It seems to me that you just need to face that fact.

Here's the disagreement - is there a possibility it be done differently than His omniscience?

Saying, "differently than His omniscience" makes no sense.

If you mean "differently than what His omniscience tells Him will be done by His Word" then ----

The answer is no. No one has said otherwise.

 

[EmSw]

Hey Wayne,

All that He has established will come to pass.

I think everyone here agrees with this. Here's the disagreement - is there a possibility it be done differently than His omniscience?

 

[GillDouglas]

I think everyone here agrees with this. Here's the disagreement - is there a possibility it be done differently than His omniscience?

I do not see how the story can play out any other way than how the Author had intended it from the beginning.

 

[EmSw]

God says otherwise - as the scriptures have clearly shown us. Your ignoring what He has said on the subject will not change the fact that it is true. It's being true will not be changed by you not believing it either.

First, you need to learn and understand what omniscience is.

1. His omniscience is infinite. There wasn't a time He 'began' to know what would happen and how. Man was created to know a beginning and an end; man is finite. If man only thinks naturally, he will put a beginning and an end to God's omniscience. When man thinks God put in a plan for things, then he puts a beginning on God's omniscience, and takes away God's infinity. To man, who is finite, this seems logical.

2. His omniscience is truth. Being the truth, the surety of His omniscience is set; there are no alternatives nor any other possibilities to His truth. Man who does not believe God's truth is sure, will try to make his truth appear as God's truth, because his truth is as far as he can see.

3. His omniscience is substance. By substance, I mean it is the essence of God, His essential nature. He knows all things as you say. However, it is all things which have substance. Since possibilities have no intrinsic truth, that is, substance of truth, they are not possible for God, who is truth itself. When man says God chose from multiple possibilities, he is saying God is unsure of Himself and His omniscience did not know what would actually happen.

If any of the above three (infinity, truth, and substance) is missing, man shouldn't try to force his ideas on God's omniscience. If man thinks God deals in possibilities, then he if forgetful that God deals only in truths, things which have substance. Also, if God has always known the truth and how things would be, possibilities are only a fantasy.

He has always known all possibilities. He has also always known exactly what He would do in this age from among those possibilities.

You are dealing with things without substance, and desperately want God to do so also.

God knows, and always has known, all things.

All we really need to know is that those things that He knows will happen only happen because He says they happen. Once He says they will happen - they have been predestined to happen by the sending forth of His unchanging Word.

Here you are putting a beginning on God's omniscience.

I have shown you previously what sending His word means in Isaiah 55, yet you keep wanting to add your two cents worth.

You don't need to understand a doctrine completely to believe it.

God isn't altogether like us. You need to face that fact.

You are so right. God's ways are higher than ours, yet you persist in adding predestination to His word.

 

[Marvin Knox]

First, you need to learn and understand what omniscience is.

1. His omniscience is infinite. There wasn't a time He 'began' to know what would happen and how. Man was created to know a beginning and an end; man is finite. If man only thinks naturally, he will put a beginning and an end to God's omniscience. When man thinks God put in a plan for things, then he puts a beginning on God's omniscience, and takes away God's infinity. To man, who is finite, this seems logical.

2. His omniscience is truth. Being the truth, the surety of His omniscience is set; there are no alternatives nor any other possibilities to His truth. Man who does not believe God's truth is sure, will try to make his truth appear as God's truth, because his truth is as far as he can see.

3. His omniscience is substance. By substance, I mean it is the essence of God, His essential nature. He knows all things as you say. However, it is all things which have substance. Since possibilities have no intrinsic truth, that is, substance of truth, they are not possible for God, who is truth itself. When man says God chose from multiple possibilities, he is saying God is unsure of Himself and His omniscience did not know what would actually happen.

If any of the above three (infinity, truth, and substance) is missing, man shouldn't try to force his ideas on God's omniscience. If man thinks God deals in possibilities, then he if forgetful that God deals only in truths, things which have substance. Also, if God has always known the truth and how things would be, possibilities are only a fantasy.

Those are fairly weighty philosophical thoughts. No putting you on here. Seriously they are.

And, I might add, I do follow exactly what you are trying to say.

But they are just that (philosophical thoughts) because God talks about knowing possibilities and not just "substance". I didn't just make it up out of whole cloth.

We don't get to ignore some of what He says and just philosophize about the things that are left.

 

[EmSw]

I do not see how the story can play out any other way than how the Author had intended it from the beginning.

There was no beginning for the Author. All things are before Him without beginning or end. Man has a difficult time with no beginning. They desperately want God to have a beginning for His omniscience.