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Calvinism, explained.

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GillDouglas

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The issue that is well buried by now is if God determines ALL things then how can one claim he is not the author of sin.

Are you a hard determinist or what ?
The good acts of men are rendered certain by the decree of God, and the sinful acts by His permission. But it's not only that He allows them but had predetermined them, otherwise there would be an uncertainty of it being done at all. The sinful nature of a man extends to a boundary set by God, rendering certain what and how a sinful act may come to pass. Just like Satan, in his torment of Job, could go no further than what God had established but he certainly would go as far as He had allowed.

It seems as if, in the way you regard sin, that God has determined not to prevent any action of sin rendering it as certain as if He had decreed it just like the good acts. How do you apply this to the sinful acts of men regarding the crucifixion of Christ? The sins of Judas? You cannot without admitting that God had planned it.
 
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Patmos

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No. That doesn't work.
Why not ? You know there are many, many verses where we are told to choose and so on.

I siad "Permissive will in addition to decretive will." Why has the church throughout history believed this until the Protestant Reformation.

Jesus said - "If anyone causes one of these little ones--those who believe in me--to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea."

So are you saying God has already predestined some to cause a little on to stumble ? What is the point of Jesus saying this then ?
 
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Albion

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Why not ? You know there are many, many verses where we are told to choose and so on.
That wasn't the point there. You can't style someone the "author" of anything if he simply permits it to happen and has the ability to prevent it.
 
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Patmos

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Hi Gill

The good acts of men are rendered certain by the decree of God, and the sinful acts by His permission.
Yes

But it's not only that He allows them but had predetermined them, otherwise there would be an uncertainty of it being done at all.
Beginning to lose me now. I think God is big enough to handle uncertainty.

The sinful nature of a man extends to a boundary set by God, rendering certain what and how a sinful act may come to pass. Just like Satan, in his torment of Job, could go no further than what God had established but he certainly would go as far as He had allowed.
Yes

It seems as if, in the way you regard sin, that God has determined not to prevent any action of sin rendering it as certain as if He had decreed it just like the good acts. How do you apply this to the sinful acts of men regarding the crucifixion of Christ? The sins of Judas? You cannot without admitting that God had planned it.
My own view is that yes, God does decree some acts as you say above. E,g Paul getting knocked of his Camel on the way to Damascus. I do not believe e.g if a man rapes someone else them it is all down to God's decree. If that were the case we are wrong to lock people up in prison.
 
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Patmos

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That wasn't the point there. You can't style someone the "author" of anything if he simply permits it to happen and has the ability to prevent it.
I am not quite with you. Nor do I understand your position. Please help me out.
 
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Patmos

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Why is Calvinism all the rage online? Are there churches out there, in 2016, preaching "thus saith Calvin?" It all seems Popish, with a Protestant twist.

Unfortunately yes. My previous church Pastor died of cancer. A year later a young hot head was appointed and turned out to be a closet Calvinist. I was given the 'choice'. Quote " Knuckle under my authority to remain a member or leave". I left.

Another member was suffering from clinical depression. He was similarly bullied- not attending regularly. He committed suicide.
 
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GillDouglas

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My own view is that yes, God does decree some acts as you say above. E,g Paul getting knocked of his Camel on the way to Damascus. I do not believe e.g if a man rapes someone else them it is all down to God;s decree. If that were the case we are wrong to lock people up in prison.
I'm glad you brought this up because there is a true story that I shared with someone in another post.

A man raped a young woman, was caught and put in the prison. The woman also was in a prison of sorts, of her mind due to depression because she had become pregnant. At the time the man had not really known much about God, and the young woman was being raised in the church but was going because that's what her family did.

Awhile later the young woman by way of the birth of that child and the people she was surrounded by had been healed, and changed completely. No longer was she going to church just because, she was going for the reason Christians need to go: spiritual renewal, fellowship etc. She had went to visit the man who raped her. She had gone there to forgive him and tell him that he had a son.

The man, while in prison, had received a Bible. Until after the young woman had forgiven him, he didn't really pay much mind to it. He read bits of it here and there, but none of it really made any sense. When she had told him about him having a son, and that she had forgiven him he was puzzled. By way of the teachings of the Bible the man had started to change. The passages he had reread started to make sense, and like the woman, had a zeal for God.

These two never married, but they shared a son. Their story and testimony brought many others to Christ. The son grew up, went to seminary and became a Pastor. All this good came out the sinful act of one man.
 
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GillDouglas

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Unfortunately yes. My previous church Pastor died of cancer. A year later a young hot head was appointed and turned out to be a closet Calvinist. I was given the 'choice'. Quote " Knuckle under my authority to remain a member or leave". I left.

Another member was suffering from clinical depression. He was similarly bullied- not attending regularly. He committed suicide.

The hypocrisy of Christians is why my father won't go to church with me. It's men like you describe, that are a primary cause for atheists. Christians give Christianity a bad name, regardless of what they call themselves.
 
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faroukfarouk

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The hypocrisy of Christians is why my father won't go to church with me. It's men like you describe, that are a primary cause for atheists. Christians give Christianity a bad name, regardless of what they call themselves.
It has been said that we are the only Bible that some people will ever read.

However, since those who reject God are going to reject His people also, any amount of trying to be nice to people who reject Him is unlikely to succeed unless the Spirit of God is working in them.
 
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Salem

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Unfortunately yes. My previous church Pastor died of cancer. A year later a young hot head was appointed and turned out to be a closet Calvinist. I was given the 'choice'. Quote " Knuckle under my authority to remain a member or leave". I left.

Another member was suffering from clinical depression. He was similarly bullied- not attending regularly. He committed suicide.

Sorry for your loss, and many great men of God in the world, at large, gone on, replaced by those who are not men of the whole truth, or even truth. It's so much worse these days, in the fundamentalist community.

Just like you, I'd also leave such an evil environment, so wouldn't hang around to get preached at by such a one. It's just that I've listened to many preachers and teachers even outside of church, for many years, most every day, and nobody's been talking about Calvin and those points that are so thoroughly discredited in scripture, but which you now see popping up online. In another forum, there's this SDA on a campaign.

I think the web gives a voice to lonely, cultish people, lost in doctrines of men, who wouldn't, otherwise, have any audience. In the Protestant community I know well, you start talking damned babies and God creating fortunate and unfortunate robots He expects to, nonetheless, make choices, or start talking holy vegetarianism, Torah and Saturdays, as if they're New Covenant, it's like that JW that rings the doorbell. Not only does nobody really want to hear it, a sane Christian flees it.

This whole online, raging over dead controversies, among Protestants, are like those Catholics offering their constant sales pitch to customers who've already said they're not buying, a thousand times over. The discussions, in this regard, make no sense, just people venting, often on both sides. This is more indicative of personal, perhaps sociopathic problems, certainly emotional instabilities, which are personal issues. You even see a lot of general vanity and spiritual instability in things people say to each other.

This is what the Bible says about a lot of this striving going on:

1 Timothy 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; 4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, 5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

But, like much scripture, let's not talk about such verses, when we're so busily preoccupied with unwholesome striving of words, for Jesus, of course.
 
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StanJ

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Those who do not agree with the sound words of Christ, build not on the ROCK of our salvation, but on sand and great will be your ruin.

Quoting scripture that you've already shown to not understand doesn't really help. You should try to actually address my points instead of just quoting scripture with no point. Yes those of us who are born again Christians are the elect just as Jesus was elect and just as the angels are elect. All that means is chosen of God because they were in a position to be chosen. God doesn't choose people to be saved he chooses save people to be used and as Rom 8:28 shows; "For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters."
That's right, we build on the Rock, and that rock is our confession of who Jesus is, as Our Savior. That confession comes from ourselves and we cannot be saved unless we confess Jesus as our savior. All the election in the world will not force us to confess Jesus as our savior, only our recognition of who he is will enable us to do so. The elect of God are those that God foreknew would obey him by accepting his son as our savior. That is not election, that is simply God using his foreknowledge from the beginning of time to know who he could depend on to predestine, according to his will.
 
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Patmos

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I'm glad you brought this up because there is a true story that I shared with someone in another post...
I remember reading it when you fist posted it. I know of a similar true story where a mugger blinded a Preacher with a knife. It ended with the preacher visiting the mugger in jail and eventually bringing him to Christ.

In my town, several years ago, I worked as a volunteer driver for disabled people. Another guy was doing it full time. He was divorced and 'time shared' his son. Until, when his son was visiting, he lost the plot, beat his son and cut his throat, killing him. He did a runner but could not handle the guilt. He gave himself up and while left alone in a cell he electrocuted himself.
Nobody in their right mind would tell the mum that God predestined this for his glory.

You said "But it's not only that He allows them (sinful acts) but had predetermined them, otherwise there would be an uncertainty of it being done at all."

It is not just me that finds this contradictory. Like so many others tis is tantamount to saying God is the author of sin, which is why there base been so much division in the protestant church.

I would love to understand how you reconcile this as not a contradiction.
 
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StanJ

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The hypocrisy of Christians is why my father won't go to church with me. It's men like you describe, that are a primary cause for atheists. Christians give Christianity a bad name, regardless of what they call themselves.
Jesus said they will know you are my disciples by your love for one another and that is indicative of a true Christian. True Christians aren't faultless but they don't display a lifestyle of hypocrisy and power tripping. Sadly I have known many ministers who are not necessarily Christian but had a lot of head knowledge and used it to batter people over the head with their opinions. What we should always do his focus on Jesus and have people like your father focus on Jesus and not how other people do it wrong. Nobody is perfect and unbelievers need to recognize that and see that Jesus Christ is the only way they can move forward. In the end, every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord and all of those excuses will fade into non-existence.
 
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Patmos

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.....
I think the web gives a voice to lonely, cultish people, lost in doctrines of men, who wouldn't, otherwise, have any audience. In the Protestant community I know well, you start talking damned babies and God creating fortunate and unfortunate robots He expects to, nonetheless, make choices, or start talking holy vegetarianism, Torah and Saturdays, as if they're New Covenant, it's like that JW that rings the doorbell. Not only does nobody really want to hear it, a sane Christian flees it.
Probably very true. I came by this forum a month or two ago as an injury means I have loads of spare time. I saw someone falsifying what I believe so felt compelled to refute it.

I was astonished when the poster said "you do not understand what I am teaching." He went on to tell me he was in a teaching ministry on line!
 
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Salem

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Probably very true. I came by this forum a month or two ago as an injury means I have loads of spare time. I saw someone falsifying what I believe so felt compelled to refute it.

I was astonished when the poster said "you do not understand what I am teaching." He went on to tell me he was in a teaching ministry on line!

I had the same experience, was ill, all dressed up and nowhere to go, started doing forums stuff, and must confess to getting somewhat hooked on things I could live without. But at first you're thinking, "Cool!", you're going to discuss truth. Then the guy you're discussing something with gets weird, whips out ceremonial law, soul sleep, a whole myriad of -ists and -isms that probably belong in a deprogrammer's case files, man's doctrines and anything but scripture truth, starts telling you who the antichrist is, there's no rapture, to stock up on toilet paper and how you lose salvation if you don't recycle a tin can... Brother! You find yourself down to defending basic truth all Christians should be settled in, then realize the other guy doesn't really believe, refuses, those Christian basics, bottom line. Doesn't believe crystal clear scripture, very often.

I have seen how the web will be instrumental in apostasy, in that it gives a platform for error and deception to flourish, literally can be the devil's playground. As you mention, there are loners out there, proclaiming error every which way, who believe they're a ministry. Some have invented their own religions, due to faulty scripture interpretations, such that no congregation has ever existed. How many are simply tares, up to no good? Throw in all those in some cult, well, so much for sound doctrine. And you couldn't, nor should you, spend all your effort refuting these people. They need to get saved, first, or they're never going to understand sound doctrine. Like our Lord told the apostles, if they don't receive you, dust off your feet and move on, not to park on their doorstep and argue with them all day, every day. To be completely honest, it's more for entertainment if you're sick, where you, at least, may get to also entertain something spiritual with somebody sane, but I think I need to more reconsider how much of it to indulge in when well, brother!

I do hope and pray you're feeling better, "Lord, lead us not into the internet..."
 
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EmSw

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Or passages like "for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place." (Acts 4:27-28) Which tell us that God predestined all things centered around this event, the actions and choices of men against Him.

This event which was foretold by Isaiah 53:10 "Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand."

Doug, have you ever heard of prophecy? Prophecy is a prediction, which is the act of saying what will happen in the future: the act of predicting something. So, is predestination a prophecy? All prophecies are written or stated in advance.
 
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EmSw

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Judging from the posts and threads here, it's the "rage" only among those who either don't understand it, don't like it, or both.

There is a remarkable lack of Calvinists or members of Reformed churches promoting the idea--especially if we compare the postings with those made by members of other denominations pushing some "pet" doctrinal theory held by their own churches.

Albion, you've stated you believe parts of Calvinism, while disagreeing with other parts. Why do you disagree with parts of Calvinism? Are they lies? Do they go against the truth? Are they dangerous for man to believe?

If they are not lies, why do you not uphold, believe, and proclaim them?
 
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GillDouglas

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I remember reading it when you fist posted it. I know of a similar true story where a mugger blinded a Preacher with a knife. It ended with the preacher visiting the mugger in jail and eventually bringing him to Christ.

In my town, several years ago, I worked as a volunteer driver for disabled people. Another guy was doing it full time. He was divorced and 'time shared' his son. Until, when his son was visiting, he lost the plot, beat his son and cut his throat, killing him. He did a runner but could not handle the guilt. He gave himself up and while left alone in a cell he electrocuted himself.
Nobody in their right mind would tell the mum that God predestined this for his glory.

You said "But it's not only that He allows them (sinful acts) but had predetermined them, otherwise there would be an uncertainty of it being done at all."

It is not just me that finds this contradictory. Like so many others tis is tantamount to saying God is the author of sin, which is why there base been so much division in the protestant church.

I would love to understand how you reconcile this as not a contradiction.
It is difficult for many, and at times for even myself, to think that God would have determined and allowed the things that we consider to be bad, cruel, evil etc. to happen. No amount of preaching of the sovereignty of God will help a grieving mother moments after her child's throat was slit. Pain, suffering, death, etc. happens to us all (the saved and unsaved) and it's not easy.

How do you deal with scripture that tells us: "I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things." (Isaiah 45:7)

Is it better for you to believe that your pain, suffering or that of another happened for no reason at all: a result of chance and circumstance? Or is it better if you realized that the things that have happened are the result of a grand design put into place by an all-knowing and loving God, that they did not happen in vain? Which would be better for the mother of that child in dealing with the pain of losing him?

It's hard to say on her behalf, but for me concerning my mother committing suicide, I like to think that it was for a purpose in God's plan, which is bigger than me and my circumstances.
 
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Albion

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Albion, you've stated you believe parts of Calvinism, while disagreeing with other parts. Why do you disagree with parts of Calvinism? Are they lies? Do they go against the truth? Are they dangerous for man to believe?

If they are not lies, why do you not uphold, believe, and proclaim them?
I'm happy enough to have your questions, but the reason I would disagree with certain interpretations of Scripture (whether that relates to Calvinism or any other movement or POV within Christianity) is simply that I am not persuaded of the truth of them. If I am right, this doesn't necessarily make them lies or dangerous.

You are correct that I find much to support the idea of Election and Eternal Security of the believer but I'm not sure of some additional views. This is not rare, by the way. There are many Christians who do not accept the Free Will theories that other Christians espouse, but this doesn't automatically make them "Calvinists" as a result.
 
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EmSw

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I'm happy enough to have your questions, but the reason I would disagree with certain interpretations of Scripture (whether that relates to Calvinism or any other movement or POV within Christianity) is simply that I am not persuaded of the truth of them. If I am right, this doesn't necessarily make them lies or dangerous.

You are correct that I find much to support the idea of Election and Eternal Security of the believer but I'm not sure of some additional views. This is not rare, by the way. There are many Christians who do not accept the Free Will theories that other Christians espouse, but this doesn't automatically make them "Calvinists" as a result.

Thank you for your answer. You are absolutely correct, as I am not at all persuaded of certain doctrines of Calvinism. Of course, there are things I definitely agree with them. However, as has been shown, predestination is their head doctrine and all other doctrines seem to be formed from this foundation.

I have shown that God determines how He deals with man, that is, according to man's ways and deeds.

Zechariah 1:6
Yet surely My words and My statutes, which I commanded My servants the prophets, did they not overtake your fathers? “So they returned and said: ‘Just as the Lord of hosts determined to do to us, according to our ways and according to our deeds, so He has dealt with us.

God does not determine beforehand (predetermine) how He deals with man. Rather we are plainly told God determines according to man's ways and deeds, that is, during man's lifetime.

Anyone who does not believe this plain truth of God's word, I will not follow, nor will I be influenced by their teachings.
 
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