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Did he die? Was it for our sins? These aren't tough questions; please don't respond with a question just an answer.....then I will answer yours.
Never an answer, only another question....must be how you were taught to respond when your beliefs are challenged......
How do you love God? Just by lip service?
How do you say after salvation, when no one will see the Lord without holiness? (Hebrews 12:14)
Whose effort do you use? Is someone else casting away your transgressions? Of course it is by your own effort.
Why is sanctification frowned upon as salvation? Paul said you should no longer walk as the Gentiles do. If you walk that way, your understanding is darkened, and you are alienated from the life of God. Your heart is also blind.
Is there salvation if one is alienated from the life of God?
What do you mean He took your place on the cross? Jesus said to take up your own cross and follow Him. Because of His work, you are now able to be a new creature. The choice is ours. You can either walk as the old man (unsaved), or you can put off the old man, and put on the new man (created in true righteousness and holiness).
Better to present the truth, than a half-truth. If Paul's words are sarcasm and ill-will, then why would not present them? People only want the good things he mentions, but have no use for the harsh, bitter words concerning the old man.
Sounds like Paul twisted them your theology's words. If you haven't put off the old man, your understanding is darkened, your heart is blinded, and you are separated from the life of God. If you have put off the old man, and also put on the new man, then you are in Christ, and a new creation.
I believe @supersoldier71 explained the matter quite accurately.
Let's look at some "types and shadows" from the TaNaKh and apply them to the fulfillment in the NT and our walk as Christians:
-God chose Israel and set them apart. Jesus chose His disciples, the sheep hear His Voice. Confirmed Romans 8 God chooses us.
-God declared Israel was free from bondage and appoints Moses His prophet to deliver His message. Jesus Christ brought the message of the Kingdom of God.
-God provided a way for death to pass over Israel by putting the blood of a lamb on the door posts. Jesus Christ is the spotless Lamb of God whose blood defeated death. He is also the door.
-God led Israel out of the bondage of Egypt, He set them apart leading them into the wilderness. He made them sojourners in the world but not of it. He sets us apart in Christ Jesus, we are in the world but not of it. We are pilgrims in a strange land.
-God tested Israel's faith in Him by sending Pharoah's armies to overtake them. Israel responded in faith by walking on dry ground through the Red sea. As we respond to our regeneration in faith in baptism.
-God led Israel to Mt Sinai to deliver His law and wrote His Law on stone tablets. God leads us to repentance, fills us with His Holy Spirit and writes His Law and precepts on our hearts and minds and causes us to walk in them.
-God continued to test, reprove, correct, teach, sanctify Israel in the Wilderness within site of the Promised land. He continues to do the same for us conforming us to the Image of His Son Jesus Christ.
-Israel reaches the Promised land. We will be glorified one day and be like Christ with glorified bodies, reaching our Promised land.
All in the types and shadows.
Thanks for your input. Maybe you will answer this question - is the penalty for sin temporal or eternal death?
Thanks.
Yes, He died. Was it a temporal or eternal death? Is temporal death the penalty for sins?
4. Penal substitution misunderstands the word “justice”
A quick perusal of the psalms and prophets will reveal that the word “justice” is usually coupled with “mercy.” Justice really means to show kindness and deliverance to the oppressed, and to right the wrongs done to them. True justice is destroying our oppressors—sin, death, and Satan—not punishing us for the sins to which we are in bondage.
12. Penal substitution makes death a punishment rather than a result God said,“In the day you eat the fruit, you will surely die” (Gen 2:17).
He did not say “I will kill you” but rather “you will die.” To walk away from God (i.e. to sin) is by definition, death. death is the realm of “Not God.” likewise, if I pull the plug on my own life support system, the result is death. No one else is killing me. If I jump off the roof, after being warned by my mother not to, and I end up breaking my leg, does that mean that my mother broke my leg? No, that was simply the result of my own choice. Christ gave Himself up to death. If death is an active punishment from God, then Christ was punished by His Father (per penal substitution). But if death is the result of sin, then it is an outside enemy, and not God’s own wrath.
13. Penal substitution undermines union with Christ
If death is a punishment for sin rather than a result of sin (continuing with the last point), then it makes little sense to speak of being united with Christ. St. Paul says that we were united together in the likeness of His death (Rom 6:5). He also says “I have been crucified with Christ” (Gal 2:20).
If death is a punishment, then St. Paul is saying “Christ and I have been punished together.”
But again, why would two people be punished for one person’s sins? Perhaps it makes more sense to say that Christ, in union with our humanity, experienced the consequence of death, and through His death, defeated death for all of us. Besides, if we really believe that Christ defeated death, then we certainly can’t say that death is a punishment sent from god, or else we’d be forced to say that Christ defeated something that god willed for us. But Christ and His Father are not at war with each other. on the other hand, I will certainly confess that there is a substitution as well. Christ experienced the consequence of sin (i.e. death), as a substitute for us, so that we don’t have to experience the ultimate consequence sin (i.e. eternal death). But note that Christ is taking on the consequence of sin in our place, rather than the punishment for sin in our place.
http://stgeorgepa.net/2011/06/orthodox-problems-with-penal-substitution-substitutionary-atonement/
You didn't answer "was it for our sins"part.Yes, He died. Was it a temporal or eternal death? Is temporal death the penalty for sins?
*[[Rom 6:23/ISV]]* For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in union with the Messiah Jesus our Lord.I've been waiting for the answer to this question - what is the penalty for sin? No one has made an attempt to answer. Maybe you will be the first.
What's worse, answering a question with a question, or not answering at all?
My guess is that temporal death could be conceived of as a penalty. In the Old Testament there were various punishments prescribed, which included death, for example stoning in the case of adultery. But Jesus stopped the stoning of the adulteress and said to forgive her. Thus I think that death could be seen as punishment and salvation from it as forgiveness.
On one hand, I am very doubtful that the Bible spells out so explicitly that "the entrance of temporal death into the world was a direct punishment by God" or something like that.
On the other hand, Substitutionary Atonement is a real theory in Orthodoxy, and I believe it was held by Augustine, who is a Saint in our church. And It's Biblical as shown in Isaiah 53.
But I will just reiterate what I said before on how in Orthodoxy there are different theories on these kinds of questions. For example, the parish of St. George Orthodox Church takes a position against penal substitution, which might be a more punishment oriented idea of atonement:
To be Orthodox, you do not have to agree or disagree with the passage above on that question. Like I said, there are alternative theories. Orthodox are not as dogmatic as Western Christians can be.
I think you can say why you agree with or don't agree with substitionary atonement like the article does above, I think. To make it a required infallible "dogma" would be a mistake. But I think that to ban it as heresy would also be mistaken.
You didn't answer "was it for our sins"part.
*[[Rom 6:23/ISV]]* For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in union with the Messiah Jesus our Lord.
Not answering the question indicates you don't know the answer which is at least honest. Answering with a questions is simply avoidance....
OK, EMSw.I'm not dogmatic on it either.
People believe as they choose, so there will many beliefs on punishment. If a person chooses to believe one way or the other does not bother me in the least. What does bother me is someone telling me I have to believe this way or that, or I am a heretic, unbeliever, or going to hell for my beliefs. They want to force their convictions upon me. I have a seat at the Divine table, and am able to hear, understand, and choose freely from what is being put on the table.
We repent, while humanity atones. The latter occurs vicariously because Christ was human and atoned and humanity is to unite with him.Now, to finish what I started above, at the heart of punishment is sin. So the question is, how do we deal with sin?
Yes, under Isaiah 53 and the OT idea of it, which prefigured Christ.Is sacrifice a plausible solution?
One idea based on Isaiah is that hades is like a pit. In Isaiah, Isaiah says that Hades or death welcomed Nebudchadnezzar. However, one church father wrote that in the case of Christ, when Christ was consumed/eaten by hades/the pit/death, then hades/death vomited him up. The pit (an OT reference to hades) could not hold him. And in vomiting him up, we came out with him, because we hold to him.Jesus came to save His people from sin (Matthew 1:21). He said He came to seek and to save that which was lost (Matthew 18:11). So, how did Jesus save those who were lost and face eternal punishment?
Correct.John the Baptist prepared the way for Jesus. What was John's message?
Mark 1:4
John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
John was preparing the way for Jesus by preaching repentance for the remission of sins. This was the same message Jesus preached. We also see this about John:
Luke 1
76 And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;
77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,
John gave the people knowledge of salvation by remission of sins, not sacrifice. Just what is remission of sins by repentance?
Here is Strong's definition of remission -
There we have it. The remission of the penalty of sin. Through repentance and remission of sin, we are released from the bondage and imprisonment of sin (remember, Jesus came to set up free). We are forgiven or pardoned of sins as if they had never been committed. Once we are released and pardoned from our sin, the punishment has been abolished. No sacrifice, no cross, just repentance on our part and remission on His part. And remission on God's part, shows God's mercy to mankind. And it is mercy He desires. This is the knowledge of salvation.
- release from bondage or imprisonment
- forgiveness or pardon, of sins (letting them go as if they had never been committed), remission of the penalty
Notice here the passover lamb is also in the same way mentioned atonement in regards to the passover lamb, with the sprinkling the blood on the people, this is an atonement for sin. This was for signs and symbols to the people, in the law, pointing the way to Christ, being the blood atonement for sins.EM,
Were I to argue for substitutionary atonement, I would answer
We repent, while humanity atones. The latter occurs vicariously because Christ was human and atoned and humanity is to unite with him.
Yes, under Isaiah 53 and the OT idea of it, which prefigured Christ.
One idea based on Isaiah is that hades is like a pit. In Isaiah, Isaiah says that Hades or death welcomed Nebudchadnezzar. However, one church father wrote that in the case of Christ, when Christ was consumed/eaten by hades/the pit/death, then hades/death vomited him up. The pit (an OT reference to hades) could not hold him. And in vomiting him up, we came out with him, because we hold to him.
As you can see, there are multiple theories. In the one above, people are saved from a pit.
Correct.
And in John 1, John the Baptist calls Jesus the Lamb of God, which refers to an idea of sacrifice.
This brings to mind why atonement is not the only theory.
in the Exodus, the Israelites passed over from death to life, from slavery to freedom when they crossed the Red Sea. This is another "theory" of salvation.
When the lambs were killed in the first passover, were the lambs atoning?
This is an interesting question. It nowhere says that the lambs died AS AN ATONEMENT. But their blood did protect the believers. It was put on the doors like the lambs blood is put on the "door" of the Ark of the covenant.
And the mouth is like a door to the body. This can be seen as a prefigurement of eating Jesus' body and blood in the Eucharist ritual through the mouth as Lutheranism/Catholicism/Orthodoxy teaches.
Also, why were the Israelites in Egypt? As a punishment it seems because of Judah's betrayal of Joseph. So when they left Egypt there was still a sacrifice involved, that of the lambs. Perhaps in a sense then the lambs were also atonement.
So there are lots of alternating theories that are correct and permissible.
Notice here the passover lamb is also in the same way mentioned atonement in regards to the passover lamb, with the sprinkling the blood on the people, this is an atonement for sin. This was for signs and symbols to the people, in the law, pointing the way to Christ, being the blood atonement for sins.
13 Now many people, a very great assembly, gathered at Jerusalem to keep the Feast of Unleavened Bread in the second month. 14 They arose and took away the altars that were in Jerusalem, and they took away all the incense altars and cast them into the Brook Kidron. 15 Then they slaughtered the Passover lambs on the fourteenth day of the second month. The priests and the Levites were ashamed, and sanctified themselves, and brought the burnt offerings to the house of the Lord.16 They stood in their place according to their custom, according to the Law of Moses the man of God; the priests sprinkled the blood received from the hand of the Levites.
17 For there were many in the assembly who had not sanctified themselves; therefore the Levites had charge of the slaughter of the Passover lambs for everyone who was not clean, to sanctify them to the Lord. 18 For a multitude of the people, many from Ephraim, Manasseh, Issachar, and Zebulun, had not cleansed themselves, yet they ate the Passover contrary to what was written. But Hezekiah prayed for them, saying, “May the good Lord provide atonement for everyone 19 who prepares his heart to seek God, the Lord God of his fathers, though he is not cleansed according to the purification of the sanctuary.” 20 And the Lord listened to Hezekiah and healed the people.
And this, even the unclean were allowed to keep the passover.
6 Now there were certain men who were defiled by a human corpse, so that they could not keep the Passover on that day; and they came before Moses and Aaron that day. 7 And those men said to him, “We became defiled by a human corpse. Why are we kept from presenting the offering of the Lord at its appointed time among the children of Israel?”
8 And Moses said to them, “Stand still, that I may hear what the Lord will command concerning you.”
9 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 10 “Speak to the children of Israel, saying: ‘If anyone of you or your posterity is unclean because of a corpse, or is far away on a journey, he may still keep the Lord’s Passover. 11 On the fourteenth day of the second month, at twilight, they may keep it. They shall eat it with unleavened bread and bitter herbs. 12 They shall leave none of it until morning, nor break one of its bones. According to all the ordinances of the Passover they shall keep it.
Notice here the passover lamb is also in the same way mentioned atonement in regards to the passover lamb, with the sprinkling the blood on the people, this is an atonement for sin. This was for signs and symbols to the people, in the law, pointing the way to Christ, being the blood atonement for sins.
13 Now many people, a very great assembly, gathered at Jerusalem to keep the Feast of Unleavened Bread in the second month. 14 They arose and took away the altars that were in Jerusalem, and they took away all the incense altars and cast them into the Brook Kidron. 15 Then they slaughtered the Passover lambs on the fourteenth day of the second month. The priests and the Levites were ashamed, and sanctified themselves, and brought the burnt offerings to the house of the Lord.16 They stood in their place according to their custom, according to the Law of Moses the man of God; the priests sprinkled the blood received from the hand of the Levites.
17 For there were many in the assembly who had not sanctified themselves; therefore the Levites had charge of the slaughter of the Passover lambs for everyone who was not clean, to sanctify them to the Lord. 18 For a multitude of the people, many from Ephraim, Manasseh, Issachar, and Zebulun, had not cleansed themselves, yet they ate the Passover contrary to what was written. But Hezekiah prayed for them, saying, “May the good Lord provide atonement for everyone 19 who prepares his heart to seek God, the Lord God of his fathers, though he is not cleansed according to the purification of the sanctuary.” 20 And the Lord listened to Hezekiah and healed the people.
And this, even the unclean were allowed to keep the passover.
6 Now there were certain men who were defiled by a human corpse, so that they could not keep the Passover on that day; and they came before Moses and Aaron that day. 7 And those men said to him, “We became defiled by a human corpse. Why are we kept from presenting the offering of the Lord at its appointed time among the children of Israel?”
8 And Moses said to them, “Stand still, that I may hear what the Lord will command concerning you.”
9 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 10 “Speak to the children of Israel, saying: ‘If anyone of you or your posterity is unclean because of a corpse, or is far away on a journey, he may still keep the Lord’s Passover. 11 On the fourteenth day of the second month, at twilight, they may keep it. They shall eat it with unleavened bread and bitter herbs. 12 They shall leave none of it until morning, nor break one of its bones. According to all the ordinances of the Passover they shall keep it.
So the Lord's Passover is for clean and unclean alike. The Passover Lamb points to Christ who takes away sin and makes the unclean clean to God. These unclean men of the congregation people of Israel still were acceptable to the Lord. And even if unclean they were accepted, then this also points to our salvation in Christ being eternal made with God's hands in heaven, we do not loose it, such as these men who desired Christ.
Now for those who did not keep the Lord's Passover, they were to be cut off from the people. Such today would be unbelievers who do not trust in Christ. But the unclean who desire to keep the Lord's passover shall be allowed to keep it and will not be cut off, they are believer's in Christ.
13 But the man who is clean and is not on a journey, and ceases to keep the Passover, that same person shall be cut off from among his people, because he did not bring the offering of the Lord at its appointed time; that man shall bear his sin.
The unsaved however do not desire to keep the Lord's Passover, they are of course not believers in Christ.
Since the yearly atonement was for the children of Israel, is it not for those who are already saved? Did it take the atonement to save the children of Israel? If so, then sometime during the year, they had to lose their salvation, and the yearly atonement restored their salvation. This suggests salvation is temporary. If they didn't lose their salvation, then why was the atonement commanded?
The atonement or the Passover Lamb was for sanctification (v. 17 above). It was for sins committed during the year of those already saved. As sdowney stated above, without this atonement, even the children of God were cut off without reconciliation, and they shall bear their own sin.
It is those who aren't sanctified, who aren't saved, for they are separated from God. It takes atonement, or reconciliation to bring them back to God. Let's look at Strong's definition of atonement -
in the NT of the restoration of the favour of God to sinners that repent and put their trust in the expiatory death of Christ
The atonement restores God's favor (grace) to sinners that repent. Yes, it is those who put their trust in the death of Christ, BUT, trust is not enough. It also takes repentance.
As I have stated previously, repentance is for the remission of sins. Remission is the release from bondage, forgiveness or pardon, of sins (letting them go as if they had never been committed), and remission of the penalty.
Repentance is not a yearly duty of man, but can done anytime, anywhere. Sanctification is a continual process for man. Sanctification keeps man from being cut off. If man continues in his sins, he will surely be cut off; sin separates man from God.
In conclusion, I would like to say the atonement is for the saved.
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