Calvinism... Discussion of Doctrine?

[Auntie]

I like seebs too. Maybe he will decide to come back one day.

 

[nyj]

Nor, are you qualified to interpret any official document of the RCC.

Yet you are?

 

[nyj]

For the record: Looking at the title Satan's Own Doctrine in reference to Calvinist theology was bugging me, so I changed it. Can't say that I agree with predestination as defined by those of the Reformed persuasion, but I do believe that they deserve more respect than that title showed.

 

[Benedicta00]

I would think that if you had any real official declarations that what you say is true, then you would post them.

Unfortunately, as you personally have absolutely no authority whatsoever and we Calvinists are able to read the authorative documents for ourselves, we have no other choice than to conclude that the Roman Catholic church has declared all of us Calvinists and most of us Protestants to be cursed.

It's not that we don't like you personally, Michelle. You simply are not authorized to speak on behalf of the Roman Catholic church. Nor, are you qualified to interpret any official document of the RCC.

Them's the facts!

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

I told you the position of the Church and you are the one who wants to believe other wise, so you are free to do so, if you want to believe that anathema means cursed to hell, then your are free to believe it but in reality it means excommunication, meaning you may not partake in the sacraments.

You see Calvin, Luther and the rest were Catholics and they were declared anathema, excommunicated from receiving sacraments while they were spreading the teachings that they were. That is what the documents say, it is for the reformers and those who followed them. They all back then were Catholic and they were being excommunicated from the Church. Protestants today are not Catholic are they? How in the world can they be excommunicated then?

The Catholic Church does not **** anyone to hell, and I believe you know this but if you want to believe they do, then go right ahead and believe it. By the way, check out my sig.

 

[Auntie]

For the record: Looking at the title Satan's Own Doctrine in reference to Calvinist theology was bugging me, so I changed it. Can't say that I agree with predestination as defined by those of the Reformed persuasion, but I do believe that they deserve more respect than that title showed.

Thanks nyj.

 

[CCWoody]

Yet you are?

Yep! IMHO, it would seem utterly stupid to actually produce a document which was impossible to be understood by those whom it was addressing.

Of course, my fellow Jedi knight RnMomof7 has already produce a citation from V2 which affirms that the Council of Trent declarations are still in force against those of us who think that the Catholic Eucharist is a doctrine of Cannibalism, for instance. I have yet you see any actual cite by the Catholics here that we have somehow gotten all this wrong. And, I'm sorry, but opinions from Catholics really doesn't mean anything except that you have a personal opinion.

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

P.S. I suppose that I appreciate your change in title for this thread, but it was really not necessary. It was certainly not offending us Calvinist. It only seemed to be offending everyone else.

 

[Auntie]

P.S. I suppose that I appreciate your change in title for this thread, but it was really not necessary. It was certainly not offending us Calvinist. It only seemed to be offending everyone else.

It was offending me; does that mean I'm not a Calvinist?

 

[Benedicta00]

Yep! IMHO, it would seem utterly stupid to actually produce a document which was impossible to be understood by those whom it was addressing.

Of course, my fellow Jedi knight RnMomof7 has already produce a citation from V2 which affirms that the Council of Trent declarations are still in force against those of us who think that the Catholic Eucharist is a doctrine of Cannibalism, for instance. I have yet you see any actual cite by the Catholics here that we have somehow gotten all this wrong. And, I'm sorry, but opinions from Catholics really doesn't mean anything except that you have a personal opinion.

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

P.S. I suppose that I appreciate your change in title for this thread, but it was really not necessary. It was certainly not offending us Calvinist. It only seemed to be offending everyone else.

Woody,

I would be offended by you if you were not so humorous.

Let me get this straight, we have what we believe all wrong? And you have it all right and what we profess about our faith is opinion and what you say about our faith is fact?

Okay, what ever you say... but please don't act like you personal opinions about us are fact, that is the laughable part.

We do not have a doctrine of cannibalism, but you are always free to believe that we do if that is what makes you happy.

 

[CCWoody]

Woody,

I would be offended by you if you were not so humorous.

Let me get this straight, we have what we believe all wrong? And you have it all right and what we profess about our faith is opinion and what you say about our faith is fact?

Okay, what ever you say... but please don't act like you personal opinions about us are fact, that is the laughable part.

We do not have a doctrine of cannibalism, but you are always free to believe that we do if that is what makes you happy.

Michelle, we are not mindless drones. We are intelligent thoughtful people. Frankly we are offended that you wish to treat us as stupid mindless drones.

Here are the FACTS:

Cannon I "If anyone denieth that, in the sacrament of the most holy Eucharist, are contained truly, really, and substantially, the body and blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and consequently the whole Christ; but saith that He is only therein as a sign, or in figure, or virtue; let him be anathema (cursed, ****** to hell)."

I, CCWoody, deny the real bodily presence of the Lord in the Eucharist. I do not believe that you are gnawing on God. According to Cannon I of an official declaration of the Roman Catholic Church, it says ANYONE who denies this is anathema.

Please stop treating me as if I am a mindless drone. If you had an official declaration which states that this really doesn't apply to me, then you would have produced it already.

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

 

[CCWoody]

I told you the position of the Church and you are the one who wants to believe other wise, so you are free to do so, if you want to believe that anathema means cursed to hell, then your are free to believe it but in reality it means excommunication, meaning you may not partake in the sacraments.

You see Calvin, Luther and the rest were Catholics and they were declared anathema, excommunicated from receiving sacraments while they were spreading the teachings that they were. That is what the documents say, it is for the reformers and those who followed them. They all back then were Catholic and they were being excommunicated from the Church. Protestants today are not Catholic are they? How in the world can they be excommunicated then?

The Catholic Church does not **** anyone to hell, and I believe you know this but if you want to believe they do, then go right ahead and believe it. By the way, check out my sig.

Er, OK! Now that your opinion has been duly noted, here is something more official from the Catholic Encyclopedia:

"Wherefore in the name of God the All-powerful, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of the Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and of all the saints, in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in Heaven and on earth, we deprive N-- himself and all his accomplices and all his abettors of the Communion of the Body and Blood of Our Lord, we separate him from the society of all Christians, we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate...."

You are free to have your personal beliefs. However they bear absolutely no resemblance to what your church claims.

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

 

[B4Eddie]

"Wherefore in the name of God the All-powerful, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of the Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and of all the saints, in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in Heaven and on earth, we deprive N-- himself and all his accomplices and all his abettors of the Communion of the Body and Blood of Our Lord, we separate him from the society of all Christians, we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate...."



Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

And you have a problem with this? What did Paul do to the fellow who married his step mother in 1 Cor. 5? Exactly the same thing. Excommunications and anathemas are warnings that you need to repent of sin so serious that you must be denied the Sacraments. If you don't believe in the Real Pressence, then 1 Cor 11 says you are cursed if you partake. So you probably want to avoid that by not taking communion in a Catholic church, anyway!

The anathamas for heresy simply reveal the status of the heretic before God. The Church cannot send him to hell, but it can make his life miserable on Earth until he repents.

 

[calgal]

Gnawing on God? ROFLOLOL! I really like that! Since I am a 5 point Calvinist, can I go play in Catholic hades too? Pleeeease! I will bring S'mores!

Michelle, we are not mindless drones. We are intelligent thoughtful people. Frankly we are offended that you wish to treat us as stupid mindless drones.

Here are the FACTS:

Cannon I "If anyone denieth that, in the sacrament of the most holy Eucharist, are contained truly, really, and substantially, the body and blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and consequently the whole Christ; but saith that He is only therein as a sign, or in figure, or virtue; let him be anathema (cursed, ****** to hell)."

I, CCWoody, deny the real bodily presence of the Lord in the Eucharist. I do not believe that you are gnawing on God. According to Cannon I of an official declaration of the Roman Catholic Church, it says ANYONE who denies this is anathema.

Please stop treating me as if I am a mindless drone. If you had an official declaration which states that this really doesn't apply to me, then you would have produced it already.

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

 

[nyj]

P.S. I suppose that I appreciate your change in title for this thread, but it was really not necessary. It was certainly not offending us Calvinist. It only seemed to be offending everyone else.

Well, I suppose you're welcome then. Of course, you've done a good job from turning this from a discussion on predestination into mocking my (and numerous others) Catholic beliefs as it regards the Real Presence, so I can see why this thread no longer offends you.

PS: To the Catholics that visit this thread, ignore it, if they want to assume they've been anathematized by the Catholic Church, let them. People have the right to assume a martyr's complex if they want.

 

[Benedicta00]

Hey Woody...What - Ever...

 

[CCWoody]

And you have a problem with this? What did Paul do to the fellow who married his step mother in 1 Cor. 5? Exactly the same thing. Excommunications and anathemas are warnings that you need to repent of sin so serious that you must be denied the Sacraments. If you don't believe in the Real Pressence, then 1 Cor 11 says you are cursed if you partake. So you probably want to avoid that by not taking communion in a Catholic church, anyway!

The anathamas for heresy simply reveal the status of the heretic before God. The Church cannot send him to hell, but it can make his life miserable on Earth until he repents.

Your statement is contradictory.

• Calvinist: I believe that the RC Eucharist is blasphemous and a doctrine of Cannibalism.
• Catholic: Well, we are going to declare you anathema to keep you from partaking.
• Calvinist: This makes no sense! Why would I want to be a part of gnawing on Jesus and sucking his blood? It is offensive to me.

There would be no need to make a declaration preventing me from your Eucharist because I have no desire for it. For me to partake would be as the sons of Aaron offering strange fire to the LORD which He did not command.

No, I'll stick with the plain language of the declaration: "we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate...."

It is crystal clear to those of us who can read for ourselves. I am excluded from the church in Heaven and judged condemned to eternal fire by virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in Heaven and on earth. Of course, you are correct in the sense that the declaration does say that I can repent. But, why would I want to change. The doctrine is offensive to the Lord. He is not being digested in the belly's of Catholics.

Spin away all you want. I've been told that this doesn't apply to me, but if you had an official declaration which states that, then it would have been posted.

Does this bother me? Absolutely not! I've met the Lord.

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

 

[Benedicta00]

Woody,

You just made the point, the document were directed for Catholics who left for heresy, not non Catholics that were taught by no fault of their own the heresy.

 

[Bastoune]

I would think that if you had any real official declarations that what you say is true, then you would post them.

Unfortunately, as you personally have absolutely no authority whatsoever and we Calvinists are able to read the authorative documents for ourselves, we have no other choice than to conclude that the Roman Catholic church has declared all of us Calvinists and most of us Protestants to be cursed.

It's not that we don't like you personally, Michelle. You simply are not authorized to speak on behalf of the Roman Catholic church. Nor, are you qualified to interpret any official document of the RCC.

Them's the facts!

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

No, I'm sorry, "them's NOT the facts."

I am constantly floored at how Calvinists claim that the Scriptures are clear and easy to understand, and yet they have to do sommersaults and cartwheels to interpret passages that disprove Calvinism (i.e., 100% of the Bible).

They come up with the most twisted interpretations of Scripture that "normal people" would not be able to get out of the readings themselves without the Calvinist interpretation to tell them how to interpret it. Case in point: how Calvinists must reconcile the doctrine of "the elect" who cannot lose their salvation to all the verses in the Bible warning about falling away after coming to the knowledge of the truth.

A certain Calvinist I write to (at least he is a decent guy; anti-Catholic but only in terms of theology; he does not subscribe to the "statue-worshiping, Mary-worshiping, neo-pagan" myths that are labeled on the Church because he knows that they are not true) told me that the elect is told to "persevere" because "perservering" is a sign that you are in the elect.

Then I asked him why all the constant admonishments toward sinning after coming to the knowledge of truth, warnings not to fall away which are abundant, etc. and he told me that that is so the elect can persevere. But if the elect is the TRUE elect, they will persevere anyway, I told him. Nothing you can do can change that! So why warn about falling away and that there is only judgment (Hebrews 10:26-28 for example), if there is no danger for it since the elect will persevere? Because if you didn't persevere you're not in the elect, right!?

It's like telling me, "Don't rape your dog" -- well I have no intention to rape my dog, so why are you telling me not to do something which is completely contrary to my nature, desires, and intentions?

Sorry for such a graphic example, but to tell the elect to persevere is somewhat like that... since the Calvinists believe such a fixed pre-destined, saved group that cannot fall, right?

As for your absurd accusation that Catholics cannot read and interpret the Bible for themselves, get a clue.

Nowhere is it taught that Catholics cannot read, study, and understand the Bible on their own. You will be hard-pressed to find proof of that teaching anywhere for it does not exist. But our interpretations should not be of ourselves but from the Holy Spirit, agreeing with that which has been handed down faithfully from generation to generation.

Bearing in mind the warning in 2 Peter 1:20-2, Catholics revere and study the Bible diligently to deepen their faith in God, but they know that because we are imperfect humans, we are prone to error. Bear in mind we are the BODY of Christ, each of us with "different gifts, according to the grace given us" (Romans 12:3-8; cf Ephesians 4; 1 Cor. 12). Not all are called to prophecy, not all called to be teachers, and we cannot say we do not need them. Since some are teachers, some are better suited to aiding and supporting the brethren in their task. Some have a great enlightenment that others don't when reading the scripture. That is a fact even you cannot deny. The very office of a priest, deacon, or bishop are for men who fulfill these roles.

Ultimately this is why there is the Magisterium, based on Acts 15 and the Council of Jerusalem, to render decisions IN THE UNITY OF THE BODY, working together.

We Catholics are not "lone ranger" Christians, we celebrate our diversity within our unity. The depth of Scripture allows various levels of interpretation but must not, cannot contradict one another. For if one man does do this, it must be discussed. Look what happened with the Arians, and all the other heresies; they took Scripture to mean whatever they wanted it to.

Bearing this in mind, we are called to live in the model of the early Church, being of one heart and mind (cf Acts 4:32; John 14-18), not come up with our own "private interpretations" that are not from God.

Sacred Tradition (Apostolic Tradition) is vitally linked with Sacred Scripture. They spring from the one source - God. For do you believe, Mark, that if Paul had merely SPOKEN all the words of all his epistles and not written them, they wouldn't still (being the SAME words and SAME message) be inspired. By the power of the Holy Spirit, and His divine inspiration, He gives authority to men to preach and teach infallibly (Matthew 16:18, 18:18, 28:9; 1 Cor. 11:2; Phil. 4:9; Col. 4:16; 1 Thess. 3:10; 2 Thess. 2:14-15; 1 Tim. 3:14-15; 2 Tim. 2:2, 3:14; 2 Peter 3:15-16 -- the word "ignorant" or unschooled shows that people need to be taught and guided along the way with Scripture; 2 John 1:12)

For example, the popular NIV shows its anti-Catholic bias by mistranslating the Greek word "paradosis", ("tradition") in some passages (1 Cor 11:2; and 2 Thess 2:15, 3:6) where this inspired word is used in a positive sense. In its place the word "teaching" is substituted. However, when the Greek text uses the word "paradosis" in a negative sense it is correctly translated as "tradition." This misleads the reader to conclude that all "tradition," "paradosis", is condemned in the New Testament. This is an example of the evil of private interpretation, which is given precedent over the words chosen by the Holy Spirit. In addition, the reader of this translation is denied the opportunity to compare this interpretation of the text with what the text actually says. This is why it is necessary to test every spirit and learn the truth.

Now I have told you why I am Catholic. I have studied the writings of the Church Fathers, men so faithful (that so many were martyred) for the faith and the insistence on the unity of the Church, and the faithful transmission of the faith of the Apostles, handed to them from Jesus. If you read and study them you will find their Gospel and theology is not that of Calvinists, but that of the Catholics. Their understanding of Scripture and its depths and power, are without equal.

The burden of historical and theological proof is on your shoulders, Woody. Can you tell us with certainty you are in the Church founded by Jesus Christ? Can you confirm to me that you have the correct interpretation of scripture? You have not done so yet so I believe you cannot. I have a heck of a lot more reason to believe my Church is right, and this is by faith, reason, the Holy Spirit, and historical analysis.... but "blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." (John 20:29)

In Christ,
TIM

 

[CCWoody]

Well, I suppose you're welcome then. Of course, you've done a good job from turning this from a discussion on predestination into mocking my (and numerous others) Catholic beliefs as it regards the Real Presence, so I can see why this thread no longer offends you.

If that is what you think this is about, then you have entirely missed the discussion. It is a clear matter of fact that I do not believe in your Eucharist. It is also a clear matter of fact that at least one RC on this thread has declared that the anathemas about my belief do not apply to me.

I have asked for proof, yet, none has been produced. Now that I have been producing actual Catholic cites, you declare that I am mocking your beliefs when this is simply not so.

This is precisely the reason why I never enjoy discussing anything with Catholics. You people are so hyper-sensitive that any declaration of my personal beliefs is always met with an uproar of wailing.

"You're so mean"
"You hate Catholics"
"You're mocking my beliefs"

And so forth.

I am perfectly willing to discuss cordially with the Catholics, but it requires some honesty. If the requested information does not exist, then simply say so. I am perfectly willing to accept that your personal belief in the matter is that these declarations do not apply to me. However, some Catholics on this thread have represented that it is the offical position of the RCC that these declarations do not apply to me. Please don't insult me by claiming to be a victim of RC mocking when I use an example of my belief and ask for proof.

.

PS: To the Catholics that visit this thread, ignore it, if they want to assume they've been anathematized by the Catholic Church, let them. People have the right to assume a martyr's complex if they want.

Actually, I have not assumed anything and you know this. I have produced actual declarations from official Catholic sources which are absurdely clear in their language. I have asked for an official document which states that what I have produced does not apply to me, but the Catholics have not done so.

Therefore, your statement that I am assuming and have a martyr's complex is the very definition of an Ad Hominem attack on my person directly. If I truly had a martyr's complex, I wouldn't be CCW, the heat packin' Calvinist.

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

 

[nyj]

Now that I have been producing actual Catholic cites, you declare that I am mocking your beliefs when this is simply not so.

Woody, do you have a comprehension problem? I specifically said there was a mocking tone in regards to the Catholic belief in the Real Presence. Let's see, you called it "sucking blood", calgal said we "gnaw on God". Am I hyper-sensitive? I suppose when it comes to what I perceive as blasphemy, you bet your bottom dollar.

Now, until you can honestly read what I write, and respond accordingly, you're right we cannot have a fruitful discussion. It takes two to tango bud, you better do your part correctly before you get on me for slacking on mine.

 

[Benedicta00]

Woody: here is your proof, the reformers are dead and so are all the first followers who left Catholicism for Protestantism.

They are dead and the following generations by no fault of their own were born ito the reformation, they did not willingly choose to leave Catholicism, so the anathemas do not apply to them, how could they, they are not Catholic.

The anathemas are for Catholics who leave for heresy, not non Catholics who were never Catholic by no fault of their own.

Geesh...how hard can this be to undersatnd. Historical context is everything.