Calvinism... Discussion of Doctrine?

[Silver Surfer]

After a person goes through all the details that describes Calvinism...the bottom line is:

God creates SOME people....predestines them to be lost....forces them to sin...does not permit them repent....AND THEN, TORTURES THEM THROUGHTOUT ALL ETERNITY AS PUNISHMENT....FOR THE SINS WHICH GOD FORCED THEM COMMIT !

 

[Grace_Alone4gives]

I am NOT a Calvinist - but will state for the record -that this is NOT AT ALL what a true Calvinist believes...perhaps Hyper-Calvinists - but not a true Reformed theology,Calvinist.

 

[Reformationist]

After a person goes through all the details that describes Calvinism...the bottom line is:

God creates SOME people

God creates all people.

predestines them to be lost

All are lost until God intercedes. This intercession is active in the lives of the elect, those that God has chosen to redeem to His own glory, and passive in the lives of the non-elect. God does not need to work fresh evil into the hearts of those He has not brought to faith in Christ. There's already enough there. He just passes over them. The elect receive mercy. The non-elect receive justice. God is unjust to no one.

forces them to sin

I would not even call this a "hyper-Calvinistic" view. I'd call it an "anti-Calvinistic" view. It is absolutely not what John Calvin taught. Man sins of his own will. God does not coerce anyone to sin. God is not the author of sin.

does not permit them repent

God keeps no one from repenting. The unregenerate never desire to repent and God does not give them the grace to overcome that. The key point in this is that God is not obligated to grace anyone with anything. We are His creation. He demands obedience. If He owes us His grace it ceases to be grace and God is in our debt.

AND THEN, TORTURES THEM THROUGHTOUT ALL ETERNITY AS PUNISHMENT....FOR THE SINS WHICH GOD FORCED THEM COMMIT !/QUOTE]

Well, I'll just let the ludicrousness of this claim speak for itself...

God bless

 

[Grace_Alone4gives]

would not even call this a "hyper-Calvinistic" view. I'd call it an "anti-Calvinistic" view. It is absolutely not what John Calvin taught. Man sins of his own will. God does not coerce anyone to sin. God is not the author of sin.

Sorry if I misrepresented the 'hypers' - my point was that the description of the original poster did not truly reflect 'basic' Calvinism as I have conceived it. I believe if someone is going to challenge a theology - they should first know what it entails.

It goes both ways...one could say "Armininism teaches that if you sin tomorrow, without repenting, and get hit by a truck before you repent, you have lost your salvation' But that is not true either.

Keep in mind I am neither Cavinist or Arminian...but I do know both stances.

 

[Reformationist]

Sorry if I misrepresented the 'hypers' - my point was that the description of the original poster did not truly reflect 'basic' Calvinism as I have conceived it.

Oh no. I agreed with you completely. And, "hyper Calvinism" is the label applied to what you said it is. I was just saying that I don't believe that view is biblical and thought that a more accurate phrase would be "anti Calvinism." You didn't say anything wrong. I'm sorry if it came accross like that.

I believe if someone is going to challenge a theology - they should first know what it entails.

Amen.

Keep in mind I am neither Cavinist or Arminian...but I do know both stances.

You are reformed though right?

God bless

 

[CCWoody]

After a person goes through all the details that describes Calvinism...the bottom line is:

God creates SOME people....predestines them to be lost....forces them to sin...does not permit them repent....AND THEN, TORTURES THEM THROUGHTOUT ALL ETERNITY AS PUNISHMENT....FOR THE SINS WHICH GOD FORCED THEM COMMIT !

If you say so pookie!

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

 

[Gabriel]

After a person goes through all the details that describes Calvinism...the bottom line is:

God creates SOME people....predestines them to be lost....forces them to sin...does not permit them repent....AND THEN, TORTURES THEM THROUGHTOUT ALL ETERNITY AS PUNISHMENT....FOR THE SINS WHICH GOD FORCED THEM COMMIT !

My suggestion would be that you learn more about something before you bash it. You are speaking against a doctrine that is plainly laid out in His word. Paul wrote of it, Jesus Himself spoke of His elect. You are bringing God's will, His sovereign nature and His love for His children into question.

ALL men deserve hell. It is by God's grace alone that any of us are saved, able to repent, become His children or are even able to understand a need for Him or seek Him.

The question I would ask you is a simple one. Is Jesus' death a sufficient price to pay for His children so that we may be saved according to His will?

 

[CCWoody]

Keep in mind I am neither Cavinist or Arminian...but I do know both stances.

Well, sister, that's only because you haven't spent enough time around me and I haven't been able to work enough of my secret rituals and dances to suck you into the dark side of the force.

Trust me, I'm very good. I used to be one of 4 Calvinist in my secret cult. Unfortunately, I'm running out of non-Calvinists to convert. My online email group is now down to two and I'm looking for fresh victims, er I mean opportunities.

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

 

[BigToe]

haha woody, you are funny. you sound like some of my friends. i am with hopetheydance completely.

 

[Grace_Alone4gives]

Well, sister, that's only because you haven't spent enough time around me and I haven't been able to work enough of my secret rituals and dances to suck you into the dark side of the force.

Keep working on me Woody.....I just may..."switch over"
You are my Obi-Wan.

You are Reformed though

Reformationalist...yes - I am Reformed. Just not 100% I guess....Maybe 95%.

 

[Caedmon]

I am NOT a Calvinist - but will state for the record -that this is NOT AT ALL what a true Calvinist believes...perhaps Hyper-Calvinists - but not a true Reformed theology,Calvinist.

Actually, it is my experience that that is exactly what a "true Calvinist" believes. I was a Calvinist for some time, and all Five Points of Calvinism were required to be a "true Calvinist."

 

[gqaggie04]

Why do we find warnings to Christians against falling away if such is an impossibility?

 

[Icystwolf]

Actually, it is my experience that that is exactly what a "true Calvinist" believes. I was a Calvinist for some time, and all Five Points of Calvinism were required to be a "true Calvinist."

It's always getting into debates when denominations argue with each other.
Look at this, we're calling each other Calvinist, Catholics, Anglicans, Baptists, Protestants, Evangelical, Lukewarmers(Uniting Church)......
mind you, I believe Jesus wanted only Christians. Though they believe in Christ...
but it's not one body anymore, it's one body split up....

I really hope one day, myself a freelancer will be called a Christian Christian, and no denomination string attached to it.

And issues with who's going to be saved from the beginning of time....umm...people, do we need to understand that to Love Jesus?

Comeon, lets face it, we can even get his basic instructions right, and here we're getting into heavenly debates.

It's like doing a maths problem, you start the maths question, you do a bit of work, then you skip to the end and guess an answer. But in doing so, you've left out a lot of working out, as well as solving the problem throughly. Which is why if you want an answer you need to guess...

same thing here...humans wern't suppose to know these things, just mainly to anticipate it, know it's a question we can ask God when we reach Heaven.

I think now I'll focus more on Jesus...just letting you know, when Christian gets into these arguments, more than likely, were guessing everything. And we use part of the scriptures, and manipulate it a bit to prove our point...yet we have absolutely no idea whats the truth.


As far as I know about these beliefs...I wouldn't spend time defending it. It could be false in the end, who knows?...well God does

 

[Grace_Alone4gives]

It's always getting into debates when denominations argue with each other.
Look at this, we're calling each other Calvinist, Catholics, Anglicans, Baptists, Protestants, Evangelical, Lukewarmers(Uniting Church)......
mind you, I believe Jesus wanted only Christians. Though they believe in Christ...
but it's not one body anymore, it's one body split up....

I really hope one day, myself a freelancer will be called a Christian Christian, and no denomination string attached to it.

And issues with who's going to be saved from the beginning of time....umm...people, do we need to understand that to Love Jesus?

Comeon, lets face it, we can even get his basic instructions right, and here we're getting into heavenly debates.

It's like doing a maths problem, you start the maths question, you do a bit of work, then you skip to the end and guess an answer. But in doing so, you've left out a lot of working out, as well as solving the problem throughly. Which is why if you want an answer you need to guess...

same thing here...humans wern't suppose to know these things, just mainly to anticipate it, know it's a question we can ask God when we reach Heaven.

I think now I'll focus more on Jesus...just letting you know, when Christian gets into these arguments, more than likely, were guessing everything. And we use part of the scriptures, and manipulate it a bit to prove our point...yet we have absolutely no idea whats the truth.


As far as I know about these beliefs...I wouldn't spend time defending it. It could be false in the end, who knows?...well God does

I agree a lot with your post...however, if someone outright attacks what someone believes and calls it a theology of Satan...I think those who follow that theology have every right to defend their stance.....

Im sick of these debates also - but understand them - especially when it is obvious the original poster wanted to debate the topic.

 

[Caedmon]

It's always getting into debates when denominations argue with each other.
Look at this, we're calling each other Calvinist, Catholics, Anglicans, Baptists, Protestants, Evangelical, Lukewarmers(Uniting Church)......
mind you, I believe Jesus wanted only Christians. Though they believe in Christ...
but it's not one body anymore, it's one body split up....

I really hope one day, myself a freelancer will be called a Christian Christian, and no denomination string attached to it.

I don't consider Catholicism to be a denomination. And I have no qualms about pursuing the Catholic "string."

 

[Jerry_M]

The title of this thread: Calvinism....Satan's own Doctrine ?

Now, isn't that "warm and fuzzy"?

Yet, the person originating this thread builds a straw man, calls it Calvinism, so why should I be upset? He certainly hasn't described the Calvinism that I practice, preach, and believe.

However, if the point of the original post is that he is upset that God controls the destiny of men, then he is on thin ice. In fact, I would go so far as to say that he is perilously close to committing the sin of "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit", which, in its simplest form, is attributing the works of God to the devil.

What if, as C.H. Spurgeon stated, "Calvinism is the Gospel"? So much for saying that it is "Satan's own doctrine".

No intent to flame, but rather to provoke thought. (This thread is the perfect example of the fact that not all participants are thoughtful.)

 

[Auntie]

Silver Surfer,

How would you feel if someone started a thread and called it:

"Seventh-Day Adventist....Satan's own Doctrine?"

Jesus commands us to love one another, and to remove the log from our own eye first. 20/20 vision is a good thing to have.

God bless,

Auntie.

 

[B4Eddie]

After a person goes through all the details that describes Calvinism...the bottom line is:

God creates SOME people....predestines them to be lost....forces them to sin...does not permit them repent....AND THEN, TORTURES THEM THROUGHTOUT ALL ETERNITY AS PUNISHMENT....FOR THE SINS WHICH GOD FORCED THEM COMMIT !

1) Please be a little more diplomatic. Calvinists do not worship Satan.

2) It would be nice to debate this. Please start a thread in the interdenominational debate section so Catholics an Orthodox can participate. I don't think we are allowed to debate you folks here, but I would like to learn more about Calvinism and why some Protestants reject it.

Thanks,

Eddie

 

[B4Eddie]

Silver Surfer,

How would you feel if someone started a thread and called it:

"Seventh-Day Adventist....Satan's own Doctrine?"

Jesus commands us to love one another, and to remove the log from our own eye first. 20/20 vision is a good thing to have.

God bless,

Auntie.

Adventists are rather interesting characters. Have you discussed the Michael is Jesus issue with them? They don't believe the way JW believe, but they do strange things with the definitions of "prince" and "archangel" to arrive at their belief.

 

[Auntie]

Adventists are rather interesting characters.

And I would imagine an Adventist would find your statement rather offensive.

Have you discussed the Michael is Jesus issue with them? They don't believe the way JW believe, but they do strange things with the definitions of "prince" and "archangel" to arrive at their belief.

If you want to learn about the specific beliefs of Seventh-Day Adventists, then I suggest you start a thread on the subject. Please try to keep your questions and comments polite and respectful.